When is it a rebody?

[taxspeaker]

In another post I talked about the E Body 440 R/T Challenger we bought out of a barn. The rust is very, very bad, so much so that the cowl/firewall/windshield area with the Vin has rusted through. I have the VIN, and nothing else that tells people this is the real deal except my reputation. I have no plans on trying to sell it and am worried about what would be considered a rebody cause I don't want to get painted with that tag.

So here is the question-If I replace the complete floor, frame rails, inner wheelhouses, cowl and firewall, but keep the doors, roof, sail panels would you consider it a rebody? I would attach the VIN to the new dash firewall and disclose EVERYTHING. What do you guys think? Forget the $$$ because I have the engine, an extra trans & rear end and can do all the mechanical and wiring myself, so we are talking about $10,000 of body parts and $10k of paint, assembly, etc. I paid $4000 for the car and again I don't sell them I just like to put them together with my son. But I do not want to do this if our experts on this board would call it a rebody.

So what is the verdict here? Thanks guys-this is one of the reasons this forum is so valuable-knowledgable folks who give their opinion

[JB400]

Some will say it is a rebody.  But, in my book (my opinion), being that the car will be as what it started out to be, I would call it a restoration.  A rebody in my book, is when the vin is swapped from one body to another.

Either way, this will probably end up in a bloodbath.  Let the bickering begin

[cdr]

i would say its a restoration.

[Drache]

I've asked this question once a year since I first joined DC.com... the general consensus was once two or more VIN numbers were moved/replaced.

[polywideblock]

not trying to hijack thread but on the same subject if a car has been cut and shut  (back half of one car used to replace smashed rear half of another) is this classed as a rebody

[dyslexic teddybear]

Interesting topic......

Interesting to me, as my Challenger is certainly going to need a lot of replacement metal too. Like the OP, mine will never be for sale....when you have a car for over 30 years, you can get kinda attached. So I will replace as needed, rebuild what I can, keeping as much of the original metal as possible.

To me......seeing as my car is very complete, I believe original drive train, I will not think of it as anything but a restoration.

JMHO, no matter what anyone says.......save the car. As long as you do not represent it as something it is not.....save it.

[Mopar Nut]

So here is the question-If I replace the complete floor, frame rails, inner wheelhouses, cowl and firewall, but keep the doors, roof, sail panels would you consider it a rebody?

No, it's a restoration. If you bought a new body and added the vin, yes, that's a rebody.

Sounds like a good project with your kids.

[Mike DC]

  

I think most people are okay with a huge amount of "restoration" work as long as these two criteria are still met:  


#1 - One car per VIN.
If you have swapped out a very large percentage of your car during the resto, there should not be any possibility that someone else could take a bunch of those tossed-out pieces and rebuild them into another car with its own claim to your VIN.  There should not be multiple cars in contention for one VIN.        


#2 - One VIN per car.
Your car should wear its VIN with no ambiguity.  Suppose some (absolute moron) restores his beloved 318 Charger by cutting up a Hemi Charger for parts.  It should not be possible for a future owner to argue that it is really the Hemi Charger and not the 318.  There should be no room for debate about which is the donor and which is the car that was fixed.      

[tan top]

  my   ,  each car has got to be judged different !  swapping  body shells with a  body that has already been assigned a vin ie was once another car !! IS a rebody ,  same a if Daycon ( Spelling -Name ) started repoping charger bodies ,  &  you use it to rebody your rotted out XP , XS or XX charger  , that would be a rebody too ,
but the two would be classed different to me ,  hypothetically the new daycon body shell , is not an OEM body so in my eyes you have just built your self a clone of a original charger !
now any one who has worked in a large vehicle crash repair shop , knows when a car has been extensively  damaged , & its with in X amount of years old & X amount of low milages , & the value of repairs dont cost a certain percentage of the current market value ,  in the days before the horrendous labour rate charges & these modern cars with electronics & air bags etcetc, the insurance would say ! ok order up a new body shell , & fix it !
then a car 0 to roughly 2 years old if low milage , would be rebodied with a new factory  body shell
now factor in that charger or any car being rebodied with a OEM shell , 40 plus years ago !! would be hard pressed to tell today , ! may be thats why you see some Hemi cars with out torque boxes ,   been rebodied , & when body was ordered from chrysler, (((having said that would never buy a  factoryhemi car this out torque boxes, thats another can of worms , there was a white 69 charger for sale a while ago , with out them !!iffy ))), all that mattered was a 69 charger body or 68 coronet body etc etc.
now i'm sure this must of gone on back in the muscle car days too ! & would only take a competent crash repair guys a day to swap a body prolly,  if all parts there  , where as cars from  1990 , would have taken two days  or 3  depending on what  what make model . course nothing gets a new body shell now with an insurance repair  , well i've not been involved doing one since 1998 at work ,  just cost too much , they just cut you a check for below market value    , & call the car  totalled , total loss, written off , beyond economical repair , scrapped  !
 , the body parts parts book for every car , you can order up any part you like , & replace it with new factory metal , as much or as little as required to repair the car .
thats nothing different from the days before AMD etc you would go to a wrecking yard , find a suitable donor car & cut all the body , parts off  , take them home & spend a  week unpicking all the factory welds , cleaning up & prepping & splicing the Doner parts in , thats no different to buying parts from  an OEM dealer , just you cut up a Doner car ,cause the car your working on is 40 plus years old & cant find any new stuff . now AMD has repoped all this stuff , there an alternative ,  so IMO its no different to a wrecked car getting repaired back in the day  various new metal being welded in with in reason.
now  thats as clear as mud , where do you draw the line  !! you need to  evaluate every car differently ask 10 people  ,  to look at said car & whats been done they will prolly give 10 different answers , no offence to anyone
ask 10 real good experienced body guys that have not got an ulterior motive when looking at said car , ie they not just rebodied it    !! to look at all pictures , the repairs , resto etc . videos / the car its self & evidence to whats been done to said car they should give the same answer as to what they think car in question is  , a rebody or ...a extensively rebuilt car using as much of original car as possible ,  you would be supprised what goes on behind closed doors in a body shop , & i'm not talking about illegal stuff either & how much & whats been replaced when you see these fully restored show winning  oem restored cars , just lot of the time its not seen & owners don't know or care to them its a restored car is a restored car !! don't care how it gets there,

[Cooter]

So here is the question-If I replace the complete floor, frame rails, inner wheelhouses, cowl and firewall, but keep the doors, roof, sail panels would you consider it a rebody? I paid $4000 for the car and again I don't sell them I just like to put them together with my son. But I do not want to do this if our experts on this board would call it a rebody.

IMO, you just answered your own question. Doesn't matter if it's a re-body or not as you aren't looking to re-sell. Only time this seems to be a problem(As it's only been going on since the beginning of cars), is when someone tries to re-sell. THEN, you see a bunch of people complaining about a re-body. NOTHING the "Experts" here say should dictate what the hell YOU do with your own car....

[tan top]

So here is the question-If I replace the complete floor, frame rails, inner wheelhouses, cowl and firewall, but keep the doors, roof, sail panels would you consider it a rebody? I paid $4000 for the car and again I don't sell them I just like to put them together with my son. But I do not want to do this if our experts on this board would call it a rebody.

IMO, you just answered your own question. Doesn't matter if it's a re-body or not as you aren't looking to re-sell. Only time this seems to be a problem(As it's only been going on since the beginning of cars), is when someone tries to re-sell. THEN, you see a bunch of people complaining about a re-body. NOTHING the "Experts" here say should dictate what the hell YOU do with your own car....

thats true  too  
   your car ! , do what makes you happy , from what you have described don't  sound like a rebody to me , just one that has been/ going to be extensivly rebuilt , i would  document & photo graph every thing , all the same   

[Homerr]

Generally I agree with most in this thread.  But I'd add 'intent' to the equation.  Your intent is to restore the existing car with the original VIN, so it's a restoration.  If your intent was to short-cut the bodywork and swap parts and VINs to a donor car then it'd be a rebody.

How do you clarify 'intent' to a future buyer?  Documentation in the form of lots of photos and paperwork.  Show the old cowl rusted to heck, the replacement cowl cut out of a donor, and the cowl going into your car.

I suppose if you want to get really anal about keeping your VIN 100% as part of the car you could do the following:

1.  Weld a temporary steel bar from adjacent to the VIN on the existing cowl to an inner fender or something.
2.  Cut around the VIN and steel bar.
3.  Cut out the existing cowl leaving only the VIN hanging there.
4.  Prep replacement cowl with hole for your VIN to fit.
5.  Add in replacement cowl.
6.  Remove temporary VIN support.
7.  Profit!   

[Troy]

Look up the legal definition in your state (most states are the same). If you take a solid car and swap the VIN stampings to it then it's a rebody - and illegal in all 50 states no matter what your intent was. If you change parts with replacements then you're generally OK in all 50 states (but some may have a limit on how much can be replaced). If you use reproduction sheet metal with no body numbers stamped on it then you're generally OK from a legal standpoint. The legal part generally is in place due to "chop shops" where stolen cars and parts are turned into legitimate ones. Here in Ohio if you're reusing a part from a car that has VIN stampings you can't legally cut those numbers off and replace them without a State Patrolman (or other state appointed representative) present and it must be documented. From a practical standpoint (and affecting most people's opinion), if you replace every piece of the car with new sheet metal and transfer the VIN numbers it may still very well be legal (as evidenced by Dynacorn bodies) - but it's certainly NOT the car that rolled off the assembly line with that VIN. At some point the original car should be declared dead. I am of the opinion that if you're replacing rusted parts )instead of swapping whole bodies or large chunks) then it's more likely a labor of love and it's hard to recoup that investment. Most people with bad intentions will take the easy way out because they're looking for a profit. For what it's worth, you never hear the subject of a rebody come up when discussing a small block 4-door Satellite.

Troy

[odcics2]

Call your local FBI guy and tell him what you want to do.  Then ask what, if any, time you'd have to serve in the clink, IF you or someone in your family EVER sells it..     

[taxspeaker]

Although the car is rusted up the 2 doors are actually still usable, they just won't open! Today we finally got the driver door open-1st time in 29 years based on the newspaper stuck to the bottom and surprise surprise 1 hings is missing and the other one is a coat hanger. The good news is look what was on the frame and it matched!

[Nwcharger]

could we see some pics of what the car looks like in its current condition?   

[Mytur Binsdirti]

, so we are talking about $10,000 of body parts and $10k of paint, assembly, etc.

You forgot to add 40% because we all know that car restorations ALWYS run over budget. Significantly.

[Cooter]

I wonder if this thing was a plain-Jane Challenger, instead of a 440 R/T would this even be considered for restoration?

[Baldwinvette77]

I personally think this is an old term when dealing with rebuilds/restorations, so many of the cars that are left over are rust buckets and have 90% of their steel replaced just to get it strong again.
i think i'd just call it a restoration, and leave the "rebody" term for stolen late models 

[Ghoste]

When all they kept was a VIN tag, calling it a restoration pretty much is theft.

[1974dodgecharger]

my body bought the whole AMD catalogue for his 70 charger and put it together and grabbed his vin off his old rusted 70 and said TOTAL BODY RESTORATION

[ACUDANUT]

When you do this. .....http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,102681.msg1214042.html#msg1214042

[Mike DC]

                    
These days you pretty much have to take it on a case-by-case basis.  

I personally would rather have a nice surviving 318 body shell cloned into an RT than an "original" RT body made totally from Tiawanese & used parts.  


"Rebuild 2/3rds of the unibody" restorations can turn out well in the functional sense when the right people do them.  But that really should be the #1 goal of a severe rebuild, staying functional.  Trying to keep all the nooks & crannies of the unibody looking 100% factory is a different goal, one that can sometimes conflict with functionality.  A lot of home-welded-up cars end up looking better than they would perform in a crash test.  This hobby tends to mistake original looking with original quality.  


                 

[ws23rt]

This is one of those discussions that can never end because it is about the meaning of the terms we are using.
We are all talking about the same subject which is--at what point does a car die and become another car.
Not a lot different than remodeling an old building. In most places you can repair a structure but not rebuild it without local permits for new structure.
Many times people will leave one wall until the other three are finished than replace the last wall. This is clearly a new structure and the intent of the local building permit rules are sidestepped.
The important issue here is what is the intent of repair? Another is the vin identification requirement.
I am working on a motorcycle project and the registration issue is real because there is no part on it that had a vin or serial number. In Oregon there is a process that is not a big deal to go through to get it registered and licensed.
I would think the same would apply to cars but have not asked the question.
Back to the question---If one has a vin tag and adds it to something they built does that become what the vin says it is. My vote is no it does not.
Legally it could or may be but that does not make it so. The gray area in the topic will push it forward.
I like the idea of a new custom vin that is recognized by our mom (regulators). It could be all we want it to be and a one of one at the same time. Future buyers will know what they are looking at without the awkward questions. We all know what clones are. Let's give them there own history and stop all the bickering.

[tan top]

When you do this. .....http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,102681.msg1214042.html#msg1214042

     was just going to post that thread here , & say same thing