Numbers Matching - seems like it's really rare when you find one

[1970Moparmann]

While having a crappy day at work today, been doing some thinking about all the cars I have seen being sold, or even the cars I have owned.  It's pretty damn interesting to me that to find a numbers matching car from the 60's and early 70's really seems to be rarity.  Were cars just beat to hell in this era, or was it people not taking care of the cars and killing the engines? 

[Charger RT]

my view was back then numbers matching didn't mean anything and a good used engine was cheap. My 68 has a 74 440 auto in it right now. But I do have the numbers matching engine in pieces and the numbers matching 4 speed in need of a rebuild. My car sat for 18 years and when I wanted to drive it I dropped in a running setup I had sitting there doing nothing.
Tim

[JB400]

I'm just a young gun and have no real evidence, but I don't think the world was all correct then, just like now.  People bought cars and used them.  It doesn't take much "stuff" to make people go nuts with an automobile.  But, I think that most people now have learned from the mistakes made then, and they have more respect of what's under the hood and what a car like ours can do.  Plus, now we have more places for people to enjoy their cars in a safe and respectful way.
The other positive and negative, is that there aren't as many of these cars on the road anymore.  Most cars on the road barely make 300hp.  So less likely, the odds of someone doing stupid stuff with high horsepower has been greatly diminished.  But it still happens.

[7chargers]

I guess this is somthing I have thought about latley myself. I have a 68 Coronet 440 with the 318. The car is all numbers matching to the original paint which is very ruff. I would like to make a RT Clone which I know to the puriest is a no no if you own a original RT already. They made alot of these cars so the 440 model isnt rare, but having a numbers matching car from the 60's is kind of neat. However there are not a ton of 68 RT's laying around for the taking or at least for a middle aged man with a family to afford. So my thought is make the car the way I want it, keep the original motor and trans and have fun with the car. I dont plan to sell it but we dont know the future and if it goes I certianly would portray its a clone. So I guess I'm saying if the car was numbers matching and was a rare model dont touch it but if it's a model that the production numbers were up and not very collectable why not do as you please. My 2 cents!

[1970Moparmann]

I can see people dropping 383 and 440's into 318's, but really surprised when you look the amount of 440's, 383's and they are not original.  Pretty interesting to me.

[bakerhillpins]

I don't know about all you guys but I don't recall engines lasting all that long at that time. Blowing up an engine wasn't that uncommon and I bet these things were not treated all that well either. I my 69 was apparently street raced and NOS'd up so it's not surprising that the original engine is gone. I bet its a fire hydrant these days.  

Tolerances and technology have come a long way in increasing the life expectancy of them.  

[41husk]

I know in the 80's when the tranny went out in my Challenger I went to the junk yard got another and through the bad one away.  I had stock Challenger tips but they came out in front of the back tires like a TA I cut them off through them away and put some after market in.  Same with valve covers.  340 unsilienced air cleaner, headers,steering wheel, wheels, intake.  All and all I probably put on $200 worth of cheep shiny items.  Fast foreward to the late 90s when I decided to make the car look factory it cost me close to $3500 to find and buy back all the stock stuff I simply through away   Thats why I now have boxes of parts and pieces and have a real tough time throwing anything off my cars away.

[hemi68charger]

Yeap, back in the day, it was easier, and often cheaper, just to get a rebuilt engine/tranny at your local machine shop. People didn't give a flip about the original block. It is the Corvette and Chevy guys, along with the likes of Mecum and BJ, that polluted the Mopar scene with this. Our VIN's say it all, their's don't.........

Neither one of my Mopars have their original motors and frankly, the Daytona drives and cruises just as good as my former '71 R/T and 500 that did have their original blocks..  

[rebby]

I can see people dropping 383 and 440's into 318's, but really surprised when you look the amount of 440's, 383's and they are not original.  Pretty interesting to me.

I own a 69 R/T SE with a VIN and upper radiator support from a 383 2v XP... People have done ALL sorts of things over the years. I FINALLY tracked down somebody who knew a little bit about the car and got the story just last week. Talk about interesting...

[1970Moparmann]

I just find it strange.  I think about the late 70's cars and most ads show numbers matching. 

I have a car that is restored to original condition and it's pretty damn cool that it has original metal, engine, trans, and all the parts... It's a rarity I guess based on what I see.

BJ has no doubt made the market perception change, just now is filtered down to other auction houses.  If there are two cars that are identical sitting next to each other, one is numbers matching and the other isn't, we all would opt to go with the numbers matching one.   To what the premium should be, who knows.   

[hemi68charger]

I just find it strange.  I think about the late 70's cars and most ads show numbers matching. 

I have a car that is restored to original condition and it's pretty damn cool that it has original metal, engine, trans, and all the parts... It's a rarity I guess based on what I see.

BJ has no doubt made the market perception change, just now is filtered down to other auction houses.  If there are two cars that are identical sitting next to each other, one is numbers matching and the other isn't, we all would opt to go with the numbers matching one.   To what the premium should be, who knows.   

Of course, that would always be the case.. I would naturally pick the one with the numbers-matching-everything... But, there are those that gloss over a car because it's original block is long gone and would much rather have a rust bucket with its original drivetrain........... Not me..........

[1970Moparmann]

I just find it strange.  I think about the late 70's cars and most ads show numbers matching. 

I have a car that is restored to original condition and it's pretty damn cool that it has original metal, engine, trans, and all the parts... It's a rarity I guess based on what I see.

BJ has no doubt made the market perception change, just now is filtered down to other auction houses.  If there are two cars that are identical sitting next to each other, one is numbers matching and the other isn't, we all would opt to go with the numbers matching one.   To what the premium should be, who knows.   

Of course, that would always be the case.. I would naturally pick the one with the numbers-matching-everything... But, there are those that gloss over a car because it's original block is long gone and would much rather have a rust bucket with its original drivetrain........... Not me..........

Hence ten years ago with all the rebody crap.  I agree. 

My Coronet, drive train is not numbers matching.

My 68, everything is except the engine.  I know who has it in Dallas, been communicating with him for a few years now.  We are just waiting for a good time to make an agreement of some sort.  The cool part is the owner who has it is 100% on board to give me the engine.

[Cooter]

If I paid what was alot back in 1969 For a REAL R/T, if the 440 wasn't in a bucket, then I wasn't driving it hard enough...Only ones that made it through with Numbers matching weren't driven hard enough. The ones that were, well, they are no longer numbers matching.
Plus, the fuel crisis was in full swing, so many didn't ewven get driven at all...
Of course, this isn't even counting the warranty blocks/trans'....

[68X426]

Were cars just beat to hell in this era?

Yes. 

[68X426]

Only ones that made it through with Numbers matching weren't driven hard enough.

Great observation. 

[twodko]

I am very lucky to have acquired a true numbers matching, never wrecked, no rust Cali car. I bought my car from the OO who bought it new locally. It was his daily driver and I saw him drive it to work many days.....it still has the company security parking sticker on the windshield.  He lost his interest in it so he stored it until I hammered him enough to sell to me. I didn't get the whole NM thing until I joined this forum and learned where to find all these numbers. Lucky lucky lucky.

[jasonspragg]

when I bought my 69 charger I didn't care if it was numbers matching because I knew I was going to put a racing motor in it no matter what, found out I bought the car from the original owner and everything EVERYTHING was original on the car down to all 4 tires.

My car had roughly 75k miles on it, not rolled over, guy said it was his Sunday car for awhile then gas prices started going up and he didn't drive it as much. So yeah I am excited to have an all original car with low miles and will more then likely take out the 440 i put in her and rebuild the 318 stock and have a number 1 original show car

[41husk]

If you are refering to the #1 show car as #1 condition it will take much more than simply matching #s in a very nice driver.  A #1 car would be Hemigeno's Daytona that is restored to OE certification.  It is very tough to have or build a #1 show car.  Every part, nut, bolt and washer needs to be correct and showing little to no wear.  You will likely have a #2 or 3 local show winner, unless you put alot more than the #s matching drive train back in it

[HANDM]

I have the original engine (383) tranny and rear end from my 69.......  as well as all original metal except for trunk, lower quarter patches, valance and one end cap

[bill440rt]

If you are refering to the #1 show car as #1 condition it will take much more than simply matching #s in a very nice driver.  A #1 car would be Hemigeno's Daytona that is restored to OE certification.  It is very tough to have or build a #1 show car.  Every part, nut, bolt and washer needs to be correct and showing little to no wear.  You will likely have a #2 or 3 local show winner, unless you put alot more than the #s matching drive train back in it

  100%
Very few resto's out there can qualify as a true "#1". It's one thing to simply "repair" a car & bring it back to life, but performing an "assembly-line" resto is daunting. It is VERY challenging, mind boggling to say the least.
I got lucky with my '70 R/T as well. Matching numbers engine, trans, 2 broadcast sheets, window sticker, etc. Very well documented. I missed OE Gold by only a few points (out of 2000), & am still finding just little things to improve on.

Let's face it, the majority of these cars were driven hard & beat on. They were just cars. Not sure if those that remain numbers matching today weren't driven hard enough, but it's easy to say the ones that are not were perhaps driven TOO hard. Quality control wasn't the greatest, either.
I still have the matching numbers engine & trans for my '68 tucked away, too. Although that original drivetrain remained intact, I can attest by the amount poor bodywork that was done to it previously it was definitely driven hard enough! 

[bull]

Only ones that made it through with Numbers matching weren't driven hard enough.

Great observation. 

Mine must be the exception then. It's had been ran through the wringer by at least 10 previous owners. It had been wrecked more than once (one was pretty big) and the entire body was twisted and needed two therapy sessions on the frame rack, the engine had gone through 2 or 3 hackjob rebuilds and bored .030 over, the diff had been changed out for a Sure Grip, the interior was almost completely modified, it's had at least three crappy paint jobs, every part of the suspension was badly worn, the rear shock mounting bracket was cracked in more than one place and had an egged out mounting hole, the k-frame was cracked and the oil pan was hammered into a concave mess, etc., etc. I can tell it's been seriously abused. And yet somehow it still has the original engine, trans. and major number stamped panels. Even the much-despised Inland shifter stayed put.

[bakerhillpins]

Mine must be the exception then. It's had been ran through the wringer by at least 10 previous owners. It had been wrecked more than once (one was pretty big) and the entire body was twisted and needed two therapy sessions on the frame rack, the engine had gone through 2 or 3 hackjob rebuilds and bored .030 over, the diff had been changed out for a Sure Grip, the interior was almost completely modified, it's had at least three crappy paint jobs, every part of the suspension was badly worn, the rear shock mounting bracket was cracked in more than one place and had an egged out mounting hole, the k-frame was cracked and the oil pan was hammered into a concave mess, etc., etc. I can tell it's been seriously abused. And yet somehow it still has the original engine, trans. and major number stamped panels. Even the much-despised Inland shifter stayed put.

The crotchety old bastards never die no matter how bad you treat them. With 10 owners it's proof. They just gave up and sold it cuz they couldn't kill it. 

[69 OUR/TEA]

I find it hard to beleive that some would say they don't care if their car was matching numbers or not.Not saying I would'nt buy a car if it were not matching #'s,obviuosly I did,my 3x9 R/T SE is NOT matching numbers,in fact,I bought it with no motor in it.Do I care,yes,I wish it were matching but you can't have everything.The car means more to me being a factory 3x9 R/T SE,then if it were green and painted black and having a numbers match drivetrain.
NTM,not much special about it,meaning the 440 is not a diff block,heads etc such as a T/A Chally or AAR.Those who have those if they don't have the #'s eng in it,search out  T/A blocks to get for the resto.
I am fortunate that my AAR has it's matching numbers engine,which is one of the reasons I jumped on it in 2002,#'s matching and my top fav color on an AAR EV2.
Then again,when I found my 72 RR GTX,full blown #'s,BS and orig window sticker.A big plus to me jumping on buying that one to.
As far as my 3x9,if it was #'s,it has A/C so you would'nt even see the 440 HP on the pad anyway !!!! LOL