Auto->Manual conversion

[ek1]

I am starting to hash out the details of my plan to build a 1968 Charger resto-mod. The idea is to keep the body fully intact, while replacing everything else with modern components. The starting point is obviously to obtain solid a donor car. Since my final plan includes a 5-spd manual transmission, I wanted to know if its a problem to acquire a body which was build with an automatic (either column shift or console shift) from factory and convert it to a manual. Factory manual transmission cars are a lot more rare and a lot higher priced than automatics, so I wanted to know if an auto -> manual conversion is a good or a bad idea. What I really need to know is what makes more sense - to get a factory auto car for less money and invest into a conversion later on OR to invest more money into a factory manual car and be done with it?

[AKcharger]

Get an auto car, especially if you're doing a resto mod. A 4 speed car will either be high priced or rusted out...seems they lived a harder life than autos. In addition if your going the Tremec 5 speed route the only mod you may have to make is swapping out the peddels since you will not need the "hump" welded in due to Tremecs having linkage at the top and I believe it's a Hydraulic clutch so no Z-bar bracket to weld in. To be honest youd do more modifications to a 4 speed car to make it a Tremec 5 speed than you would an Auto car!

You may want to take a look a this post as well
Cheers!

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,90184.0.html

[twodko]

OEM 4 spd

[moparchris]

If you're going the  resto-mod route, don't bother looking for a 4 speed car.  The modern 5-speed swap is easy and you are going to have the car in 1,000 pieces anyway.  Why try to find an original 4 speed car just to resto-mod it?

[ek1]

Sorry to be repetitive, but just to clarify - if I get an auto car and do a conversion, it won't become a process of hunting for exotic parts that are no longer manufactured and next to impossible to get, cutting the body somewhere, etc, etc?

Also, as far as the cost is concerned, I saw some posters here talking about a $3K-$5K manual transmission (in a perfect like new condition of course). Since I cannot do the restoration myself, I will be paying someone for labor. So in the end of the day, if the price difference between a manual car and an auto car is lets say $5K (all other aspects being the same), would it still make sense to get an auto car if the auto->manual conversion will cost at least $5K or more in parts and labor?

[Troy]

You're putting a 5-speed into it. Since that was never a factory option what factory parts would you have to find?

No, buy an auto and leave the factory 4-speed cars for people who want to do a proper restoration. Depending on which 5-speed you decide to use you won't need any of the factory 4-speed components any way. A T-5 (ala Keisler and Hurst Driveline Conversions) is a top loader so you don't need the factory "hump", shifter, shift rods, shifter handle, cross member, bell housing, flywheel, clutch, or throwout bearing. If you use their hydraulic throwout bearing you won't need a Z-bar or any of the connecting linkage and brackets. You'll have to cut a hole in the floor either way because the top loader shifter comes up in a different location than stock. You'll have to buy pedals (which are reproduced) - unless you get a kit which includes everything. If you go with a Passon 5-speed it uses all stock parts except the shifter and linkage so that's really the only scenario you'd benefit from starting with a 4-speed car.

A Keisler conversion is around $4,500 (last time I checked) where the Passon transmission and shifter are $4,200 alone. Labor would be additional.

If, instead, you want a 4-speed that changes things. It's still harder to find a 4-speed car than an automatic. For similar condition the 4-speed car may be much more expensive. Your primary body modifications are the floor "hump" (and hole underneath), attaching the Z-bar bracket, and attaching the firewall reinforcement plate (which most people forget). That's not a lot of effort - but it's easier on a car that isn't finished with a pretty paint job. You can find used/rebuilt parts for less than half of a Keisler conversion but you have to know what you're looking for and it may take a lot longer.

Troy

[ek1]

Troy,

Thanks a lot, the info you provided is exactly what I was looking for and it gives me a great idea of what I need to do. Also, I've spent a few hours reading about Tremec, Keissler and Passon kits and now I have some more questions

1. Passon's flier for the A-855 claims that all other transmissions (from other vendors) do not fit without modifications. Is this really true? Also, are they talking only about cases when an original 4-speed is replaced with a modern 5-speed or ANY application of a modern 5-speed in general (like an auto-> manual conversion)?

2. You mentioned that the body is going to have to be cut anyway to install a 5-spd, but Hurst's web site says "Include mid-mount shifter for stock shifter location and appearance. No console modifications required!" Is this true or not?

3. Would column shift cars require more modifications and parts than console shift?

[Troy]

1. Yes, it's true. The Passon 5-speed is dimensionally the same as the factory 4-speed so there are no clearance problems. It has a side mounted shifter like the original. It also has an 18 spline input shaft that fits the factory parts. Since it's the same as a 4-speed you'd still need to make the exact same modifications to convert from an automatic. When converting from a 4-speed you only swap the transmission itself, shifter and rods (assuming you already have an 18 spline -  a 23 spline would require a clutch disc as well).

2. Notice the keywords "console modifications". It doesn't say anything about the floor. Any of the T-5 based conversions require floor/tunnel work because of the top mounted shifter as I mentioned above. As best as I can tell, the Hurst conversion still need the floor trimmed in a non-factory location but they have a modified handle to come up through the console in the right position. I'm making this determination due to the fact that they sell a cover plate for the original hole.  All of the T-5 conversions look much better with a console because it masks this handle location problem. You'll need a modified transmission cross member because of the shape of the T-5. It's a bolt-on so not really a body mod. The Richmond transmissions are physically larger and will require some serious reworking of the floor.

Speaking of consoles... the auto and 4-speed consoles actually use different brackets. You can modify the automatic brackets to work.

3. Yes. You'll need a proper steering column if you want it to look correct. A column shifted automatic has *no* holes in the floor whatsoever - but you're going to cut a big hole where the console auto shifter hole would be any way so it doesn't matter. If you want to add a console you'll have to weld in the brackets. Console parts are a big expense. Factory top plates are hard to find (ie $$$) and the repro parts, while readily available, aren't exactly cheap. The side trim is really tough to come across.

Troy

[1974dodgecharger]

I think I asked this question months ago and I believe troy you suggested speed passions?