Challenger T/A and 'Cuda AAR mandatory mileage

[pettybird]

blah blah blah name drop blah blah

All of that...and still no documentation beyond four anecdotal references which could not be mathematically possible to be true.  

Obviously Tier 1 suppliers have a lot to do with this conversation, as do every major insurance company in the world, etc.  How many T/A's did Venture and Quanta put miles on before delivery again?  Next time you're in a meeting with those governing bodies who write DOT laws, ask them about the eleven million, five hundred thousand miles the homologation cars drove before delivery that no one beyond the Fantastic Four has ever heard of.

Though not the limit of my experience, and I'm certainly not trying to say I know more industry people than you, I've worked in muscle car dealerships documenting and writing sales ads for more than five years now.  I may miss details here and there, but after all of the Trans Am homologation specials I've dealt with, not one time did a 500 mile SCCA mandate come up.  Ever.  I would think that more than a few of the THOUSANDS of original owners of Z/28's, Boss 302's, AAR's, T/A's, Javelins, Boss Cougar Eliminators, et al would have mentioned at some point, "hey, so I asked my new car salesman why my car had 650 miles on it at delivery time.  He told me it was because of the SCCA!"  


So, you've already mentioned your friends and your stature to no effect.  What's next, invoking Godwin's Law?

You came here to sling mud about a Daytona, and now you're trapped in this quagmire.  Take your shenanigans elsewhere and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

[pettybird]

yep.  that's about all you have.

[ECS]

yep.  that's about all you have.

Tell my good buddies "HI"!

[pettybird]

yep.  that's about all you have.

Tell my good buddies "HI"!

why are you still here?

[richRTSE]

not that it matters, but here's what I believe...

I believe Tom Barcroft's dad drove a white T/A Challenger that was a 500-mile sales bank car...

I believe it wouldn't be hard for a dealership or sales rep to rack up 500 miles on a car in a week or two...

I believe Ralph Weidner believes the 500 mile mileage requirement on all T/As and AARs...

I believe Dave Stuart believes it was only required on the first shipment of cars...

I believe they both can't be right....

I believe there is the possibilty that neither one of them is right...

and....I believe that all of my above statements could be true at the same time....or not... 


I know a guy that was a mechanic at a Dodge dealership in the 60s/70s and he told a story about how customers would bring cars back after several months and complain about the rusty-looking leafsprings. So after too many complaints, that dealership decided to slap some black paint on the leafsprings before they sold a car. Does that mean every car of that era sold had painted leafsprings? No, but cars from that dealership did, and there is no factory document to prove it, just an "old-timer's" memory....lots of funny stuff happened back then....

[ECS]

why are you still here?

To learn from you of course!  Why just tonight I talked with a Cardiac Surgeon.  He told me about all of the things he did throughout his career!  Of course I argued with him and told him he didn't know what he was talking about because I just couldn't understand how he was able to do the things he claimed to do.  I have decided that reality is centered around my understanding of a situation.  If I can't use my limited knowledge to understand something, then it isn't possible.  And to think that no good lying Cardio Specialist expected me to believe that he could actually transplant a Heart from one person to another!

[ECS]

not that it matters, but here's what I believe...

I believe Tom Barcroft's dad drove a white T/A Challenger that was a 500-mile sales bank car...

I believe it wouldn't be hard for a dealership or sales rep to rack up 500 miles on a car in a week or two...

I believe Ralph Weidner believes the 500 mile mileage requirement on all T/As and AARs...

I believe Dave Stuart believes it was only required on the first shipment of cars...

I believe they both can't be right....

I believe there is the possibilty that neither one of them is right...

and....I believe that all of my above statements could be true at the same time....or not...  

Thanks for the comments Rich.  I talked with Dave Stuart tonight and he was not working for Chrysler during the time that Tom's Father, Ralph Wiedner or Bernard Klein was working there in 1970.  He started for Chrysler in 1986 or 1987.  He remembered similar situations with the Shelby vehicles that he WAS specifically involved with.  All of these guys have a tremendous inventory of Corporate Bulletins and Literature.  We are reaching out to as many guys from the past to locate any information surrounding this scenario.  If it is out there, they will find it.  He also said that a Zone Manager could EASILY drive 300-400 miles in a day (round trip) going from one zone/district, switch to another vehicle and bring it back to where they started.  They would also have other employees (salesmen) drive the cars just like they do today.  Dave is currently driving a new Hemi Challenger that he has already driven over 11,000 miles.

[held1823]

as a former chrysler employee, i have worked with hundreds of people who were there, "back in the day". my father worked there from 1967 to 2004, and my grandfather from 1950 to 1981. two uncles were employed there during the muscle car era. my ex father-in-law is also a retired chrysler executive. all told, i do have some history and background with those who purchased Chrysler products during this period.

these family members and coworkers were the original owners of a large amount of Chrysler vehicles around 1970, including Daytona, Superbird, AAR and T/A models. Countless hours were spent discussing the muscle car era and the various cars, both formerly and currently owned. Never once was this subject mentioned by a T/A or AAR original owner. Does this discount a newly surfaced account? no, but it casts considerable doubt on my willingness to believe such a far-flung scenario, especially when the messenger comes across as such a pompous ass. (being an ass myself, i can recognize a fellow one.)

Mr. Bell has owned/owns a fleet of T/A and AAR cars. It will be interestng to hear his input in regards to the mileage figures and original owner recollections, upon his return from Carlisle.

[Ghoste]

The preamble;
This topic has come under the aero section in a thread specific to Superbirds and Daytonas being stripped of parts in order to sell.  A piece of information came up that has taken on a life of its own and it is my opinion that it is an important enough topic that it should be discussed at length.  Knowing many people don't visit the aero forum but still have great knowledge of the E-bodies, I am attempting to introduce it here in the hope that it can bring further enlightenment.

The debate;
A knowledgable and well respected member of the Mopar reproduction community brought forth a statement that all of the Trans Am homologation cars were required to have 500 miles of use on them BEFORE they could be delivered to new car dealerships.  Some of us find it difficult to accept and some do not.  There is anecdotal evidence from former Chrysler employees and there is a you tube link to an interview with same.  It is my hope that this could be discussed in a rational manner as it has also become a little contentious in the aero forum and that of course, is never productive.


Hopefully a moderator agrees with me that it will be better served in this forum and split the topic to bring some of it here and if not, then please everyone ignore it here and let it die quickly from this forum.


It begins near the bottom of the second page in this thread.
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,92599.25.html

[Ghoste]

Likely wasting my time but I've tried to introduce the Trans Am topic in the car guys forum in an effort to both keep this also important thread from being derailed and to introduce the important TA topic to a wider discussion as many people on the board do not frequent the aero forum.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,93131.msg1059096.html#msg1059096


Hopefully a moderator can split the E-body stuff off from here and place it there???

[tan top]

     interesting !! sure  i remember seeing articals on lower milage cars !! can remember a T/A challenger  showing 17 miles  sure it was a origanal FM3 car ,  in a magazine 23 ish years back

[odcics2]

All it takes is documentation stating all the cars need to be driven prior to delivery, and this will all be put to bed.

A directive of this magnitude would surely have been documented.    All hearsay, at this point...

In the early 80s, I was at a swap meet on Detroit's east side and saw a gray-silver painted "Road Runner" with a bird back window and "A" pillar moldings on it.
Earlier, in 1975, I saw a B-5 Hemi Bird in St. Louis without a wing.  The guy said it whistled, so he took it off and filled in the holes.  I took no photos because, frankly, back then, who cared?   Without proof, my recollections are just hearsay.   Hmm, maybe the Blue wingless bird was a 440?   Has been a long time, ya know... 

[held1823]

why are you still here?

To learn from you of course!  Why just tonight I talked with a Cardiac Surgeon.  He told me about all of the things he did throughout his career!  Of course I argued with him and told him he didn't know what he was talking about because I just couldn't understand how he was able to do the things he claimed to do.  I have decided that reality is centered around my understanding of a situation.  If I can't use my limited knowledge to understand something, then it isn't possible.  And to think that no good lying Cardio Specialist expected me to believe that he could actually transplant a Heart from one person to another!

...yet there are thousands of published articles, photos, and videos to support the cardiac doctor's claim. is there a single one, to support yours?

you'd be better served using a sarcastic example that serves to bolster your point, rather than debunk it.

[ECS]

you'd be better served using a sarcastic example that serves to bolster your point, rather than debunk it.

All of the "sarcastic" comparisons and jargon being conveyed here and it's my silly comment that you selectively chose to call out?  I would continue to match Wits with you guys but since some here are only half prepared, I think I'll pass.  Enjoy the thread!

[held1823]

you'd be better served using a sarcastic example that serves to bolster your point, rather than debunk it.

All of the "sarcastic" comparisons and jargon being conveyed here and it's my silly comment that you selectively chose to call out?  I would continue to match Wits with you guys but since some here are only half prepared, I think I'll pass.  Enjoy the thread!

it is your comment i pointed out, for the following reasons. you come here claiming to have no agenda, yet come across exactly the opposite. the foremost expert in wing car history showed you a photo of the daytona originally in question, wearing all of its sheet metal, yet you still can prove the sheet metal was removed over forty years ago? how about some documentable evidence? do you think yourself witty enough to eviscerate your adversaries by dropping names or boasting of your credentials? (you're not.) do you think yourself established enough in the hobby that everyone should give credence to your "discovery"? hardly. prior to this thread, most people here had never heard of you, for one simple reason. you're simply not that important, outside your niche of the hobby.

as i mentioned in my previous post, i've spent a lifetime around chrysler employees who were there at the time. we can ask ten of them individually about a specific topic, and get ten different viewpoints. gather those same ten people in a room together, and suddenly their stories start to mesh. they aren't recalling things; they are filling in the gaps of their own memories. does their sudden consensus make the new story true, although 99+ percent of it never occurred? my father was with chrysler at that time, and  is one of the original 503 daytona owners. his recollections are often times amiss about a car he has owned for over forty years, but using your logic, his version of things should still be considered credible? he WAS there, afterall.

you can save yourself some trouble. we non-believers are obviously beneath your station in life. feel free to go on with your witty, self-absorbed supremacy elsewhere, and leave us clueless minions to wallow in our own ignorance. we shall blame no one but ourselves, for missing out on our chance to rewrite history. you can tell everyone you told us so, later on...

[ECS]

outside your niche of the hobby.

You obviously have me confused with someone else.  I can assure you my "importance" is not contingent upon your perception or awareness.  That is the core problem with some of you here.  Unless YOU comprehend or accept something, it can't be possible!  Reality is contingent on your awareness and/or acceptance of a particular concept!  One thing that can be proven with absolute certainty is the order in which the insults and rude remarks started flying.  Go back and check those facts and redirect your anger towards the instigator.  The truth is that you and a few of your cronies do not know me.  I am simply not part of the Good Old Boys Club so the rules are different for me.  As long as the "new guy" cowers down to your rude condescending insults, everything is status quo!  Let that "new Person" respond in parallel and you Hypocrites cry foul.  You might want to reconsider that "niche" descriptive you mentioned.  Many of you probably (unknowingly) use some of the products my Company has Invented and/or Manufactures.  With all due respect to this Forum, it is you that exist in a small World where you slap each other on the back because you own a particular type of car.  Odd how you guys preach the concept "Never Say Never" as it relates to Chrysler protocol but what you really mean is that unless a "new" concept passes your infinite wisdom and knowledge, it MUST be Incorrect.  Since you seem so intent on "proof" for everything, below are a few of my insignificant and unknown accomplishments that you so kindly brought into the commentary.  You have turned this into a personal attack so lets go!  By all means, please provide your great portfolio which prompted the empirical and condescending comments about my "niche" existence. 

http://www.ecsautomotive.com/
http://www.ecsvin.com/
http://www.semashow.com/category/tags/rust-prevention-magic
http://www.trademarkia.com/rust-prevention-magic-85090032.html
http://www.trademarkia.com/magic-guard-85576584.html
http://www.tmquest.com/results.asp?maxFiles=10&sort=1&adv=1&owner=E.C.S.+Automotive+Concepts%2C+L.L.C
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMJL4cHDV4c
http://www.moparaction.com/Article/Black_Gold/Black_Gold.html
http://www.moparaction.com/Article/PoP/PoP.html
http://www.moparaction.com/Article/NEW_GOLD/NEW_GOLD.html





         

[pettybird]

You obviously have me confused with someone else.
       

I know EXACTLY who you are, which is why it confuses me that you're acting like a child.  I'm simply stunned that your immense ego FORCES you to be right despite going 0-2 in outlandish claims in "our little club."  We might not have your connections but we weren't born yesterday, either.

Twice now you've decided the best tactic would be to throw out your credentials as an end-all-be-all move.  Lovely.  Stick around and be helpful or GTFO and find another site where your conspiracy theories are better received.  

[ECS]

[ECS]

Hi Ghoste,
Thanks for relocating this subject matter.  I spoke with Dave Stuart yesterday and he is going to see if he can locate formal documents that references this information.  He said the data from Ralph & Bernard was accurate but that some cars might have been bought and put on the road before they were driven by Chrysler Employees.  He said he wasn't around at that time so he couldn't be absolutely positive.  He also thought it was possible that a few cars could have been purchased when they were first delivered and THAT would have put them in service accumulating miles. This is what Chrysler was trying to accomplish in order to comply with SCCA regulations.  The large majority of the Sales Bank cars that were not sold had to be driven by Chrysler Personnel to satisfy the racing program homologation.  The Chrysler Corporation didn't start manufacturing their SCCA cars until late in the 1970 model year.  Cars like the Boss 302, Z/28 Camaro, etc.... had already been established in the program and had been racing in the circuit long before Chrysler entered the series.  When he explains the scenario it seems very simple and straight forward.  Hopefully, he will also find a bulletin that references some of this information.  I will keep you posted!  Thanks.   

[Ghoste]

Ah, that would be good.  I still haven't had a chance to watch the you tube link you posted with that interview.  (I need to work less  90% of my time here is more like drive by participation believe it or not)

[hatersaurusrex]

I've been following that same thread and found it pretty fascinating.

While not 'documented and official', anecdotal 'evidence' from people who bought these cars new would be a good place to start.  I've only owned one brand-new car in my life (a 99 Dakota) and I remember exactly how many miles it had on it - 9.  It's a point of fascination for me because my pop worked for Cadillac on the line in the 60's, and used to tell us stories about how the only miles on a new caddy were whatever it took to drive them to the 'holding lot' where the car carriers picked them up, which was a huge parking lot somewhere outside Detroit.    He said there were teams of guys whose whole job was simply to get in a new Caddy that came off the line and go park it.   I'm sure that's all changed, but it stuck in my brain.

  I would think anyone going to the dealership to purchase a BRAND NEW T/A or AAR would surely remember the moment they sat in the seat and saw the odometer had several hundred miles on it.    I know I would have lots of questions before buying a 'new' car that had 500 miles on it, and surely the dealerships had to show some kind of documentation on why this was happening to ease a potential buyer's mind?

Just my nickel's worth, but the original owners could easily add colour to this, even if it didn't prove/disprove.

[moparstuart]

 

[ECS]

That guy doesn't look anything like me!  This is me............
(We really should consider having these discussions in person!  Much less typing of course.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-Av76oxveQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gk-AH1ntafw

[pettybird]

[moparstuart]

That guy doesn't look anything like me!  This is me............
(We really should consider having these discussions in person!  Much less typing of course.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-Av76oxveQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gk-AH1ntafw

  im bigger and fatter     oh and sometimes i feel like being elvis