Tesla Motor's $40,000.00 Battery Repair

[1969chargerrtse]

Told ya.  


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[Ghoste]

Now if they could only sell them.

[1969chargerrtse]

Now if they could only sell them.

Ha!!   

[Troy]

I suppose it depends on how dead it is when the charging starts. I can't imagine that little gas engine charges faster than a 240 volt outlet.

Troy

[Old Moparz]

If I did something dumb & ruined something expensive I'd eat it & have to deal with it. If there is a legit flaw in design, or something craps out before it's life expectancy, then I'm pissed & want to be compensated. I'm kind of in the middle with Tesla not being responsible for the replacement costs. After reading the story, I think Tesla is risking the company's reputation with this move of not replacing or coming up with a better electrical protection design.

On one hand, Chrysler used to have a note about how a warranty on the Hemi cars would be voided if they were raced. I don't see it as being drastically different, but it is more of a gray area.

[1969chargerrtse]

I suppose it depends on how dead it is when the charging starts. I can't imagine that little gas engine charges faster than a 240 volt outlet.

Troy

I'm sure it just puts a small amount in it to keep it from being a brick.  That amount could last 4 more months, who knows?

[1969chargerrtse]

If I did something dumb & ruined something expensive I'd eat it & have to deal with it. If there is a legit flaw in design, or something craps out before it's life expectancy, then I'm pissed & want to be compensated. I'm kind of in the middle with Tesla not being responsible for the replacement costs. After reading the story, I think Tesla is risking the company's reputation with this move of not replacing or coming up with a better electrical protection design.

On one hand, Chrysler used to have a note about how a warranty on the Hemi cars would be voided if they were raced. I don't see it as being drastically different, but it is more of a gray area.

Yeah all good points.  But to make a mistake and pay 30,000.00 plus.  They should make you take a class and sign a waiver before you roll out with it, or do like the Volt and alert you.

[Troy]

If I did something dumb & ruined something expensive I'd eat it & have to deal with it. If there is a legit flaw in design, or something craps out before it's life expectancy, then I'm pissed & want to be compensated. I'm kind of in the middle with Tesla not being responsible for the replacement costs. After reading the story, I think Tesla is risking the company's reputation with this move of not replacing or coming up with a better electrical protection design.

On one hand, Chrysler used to have a note about how a warranty on the Hemi cars would be voided if they were raced. I don't see it as being drastically different, but it is more of a gray area.

Yeah all good points.  But to make a mistake and pay 30,000.00 plus.  They should make you take a class and sign a waiver before you roll out with it, or do like the Volt and alert you.

Again, look at the clientele - not going to happen.

Troy

[Mike DC]

         
Regardless of the clientele, Tesla deserves to lose business if this is how they handle problems.  They don't owe the customers new replacement batteries.  But the customers & general public also don't owe them any more vehicle sales either. 

It's not idiotic to build a battery that has a severe design limitation.  But it's pretty idiotic to ignore the problem at every stage of product development & marketing and then leave their customers absolutely no recourse when it blows up in their faces.  Their product was susceptible to a $40,000 component failure, caused by relatively normal operation habits, and they literally didn't inform their customers of the risk.  They literally didn't invest $4-per-car to reduce the risk with a minor bit of software management either.  Companies that want to stay in business don't do things like this.

[Troy]

When's the last time you paid a programmer? With such limited production every small adjustment could add hundreds of dollars to each car (although, in the face of $40k that sounds like a deal but that's hind sight for you). Same with hardware. I worked on another application that included custom hardware (smart sensors) and, once you've committed to a design and the parts are in production, a small change costs big money. We used totally custom, single use lithium batteries because that's the only thing that met the requirements at design time. They cost $400 each and lasted 18 months max. It was only later that they were nicknamed "cannons". Right after that we came across batteries that lasted just as long but were 1/30th of the size - and not toxic waste when they died.

I'm not a PR person but I do generally know what it takes to release a product (usually before it's ready). I'm also keenly aware of stupid users (from having to routinely "fix" things that no one ever expected someone to try) so maybe I'm biased.

I put $10k into my Cummins Ram (that I paid $15k for) due to poor design decisions by the manufacturer. After all that I was able to sell the truck for $9k. Luckily I didn't have to replace an injector pump! Those trucks are mass produced as well so one might expect a little more longevity from having such a large sample size. Dodge not only refuses to acknowledge there is a problem (actually multiple problems) but they've jacked up parts prices due to low inventory from so many failing. I guess we know who Tesla shouldn't be asking for advice.

Troy

[Mike DC]

  
Well, I guess I just don't see this as something that would have been discovered late in the game.  The battery is an integral part of an electric car.  It's arguably THE part that makes or breaks it.  I would expect the people in charge at Tesla to want to know any & all drawbacks at the beginning so they could build the car accordingly.  

The whole mission of Tesla was to take mostly existing electric car tech and turn it into a commercially viable product for the masses (albeit the rich masses).  IMHO the company's main purpose for existing is to cope with these kinds of problems and make the thing consumer-friendly.  

 

[Silver R/T]

40K is a 1/4 of my house. I think I'll put that down towards my house than electric car. My most expensive electric appliance is a fridge and it's going to be that way for a while

[bull]

Go to the auto parts store, buy an AGM/Gel battery for your car, discharge it, and then try to recharge (without following the steps I listed earlier). Enjoy your new $200 doorstop!

Is that what these Tesla owners were doing? Letting them go dead as soon as they bought them? Let's compare apples to apples. The AGM/gel batteries I have worked with can be recharged once run flat if they are recharged properly to begin with so unless these Tesla customers were buying them, parking them and letting the batteries go dead and sit for weeks I don't see how the comparison works.

Most rechargeable batteries in devices have a "memory". The earliest ones were really bad about not allowing a full charge if you didn't charge them properly initially (ie the battery would think it was fully charged when it was really at 30%). The new chargers have electronics to "fix" this - or, in reality, to "fix" the fact that the owner doesn't charge it correctly. Even so, have you noticed your cell phone or cordless drill seems to need recharged more often as it gets older?

Right. The real discussion here is about making the device conform to the human, not the other way around. This is how it should be. This is why most of the time engineers are universally hated by users, because most don't think about the human factor until they have to. And that's why we hear stories like yours about crazy $250k screw-ups involving robots. Engineers apparently think people have nothing better to do than worry about the minutia of the gadgetry they produce when in fact 99% of us only have time to push the "on" button before going about our daily tasks. And that's why the guy who builds the most user-friendly devices usually wins. This is why we're no longer using DOS and Steve Jobs and Bill Gates were and are sitting on mountains of cash.

[Troy]

Again, making a perfect product on the first attempt never happens. It is nearly impossible to determine all the ways your product can be used/abused prior to releasing it to the world. It is also not practical or economically feasible to create a product that can handle even half of these scenarios. Conforming to the human only happens after you've found a human that doesn't conform to your expectations. There is a reason many jobs require "training" - it's for all the things that couldn't be handled "automatically". It's also why most software hits Version 3.0 before it's really accepted as ready-for-prime-time.

Unless something changed very recently you can't attach a dead Gel battery to a standard charger and get it to recharge. I may have misspoke by lumping the AGM batteries in there but I thought they were the same construction. I blame it on the manufacturer for not being consistent in their naming. They are charged when you buy them so any time after that should have the same results.

The Tesla roadster used a lot of mechanical components from Lotus. The battery technology *partially* existed in computers but never in a car. The software to manage it all was built from scratch. As a car company I'm sure Tesla was hoping people would drive their cars regularly (free advertising). Since there is a warning about letting the battery discharge someone at least thought about what would happen if the car was parked for a long period of time without being connected. Perhaps the solution is as simple as adding a "hibernate" switch to kill the parasitic loads? Of course, some nimrod would forget to flip it and "brick" his car any way.

I find it terrifying that people can buy a computer capable enough to run the space program in the 60s and yet have no idea how it works, it's vulnerabilities, or its limitations. Same with cars - people have no attention span and no idea how to drive because the car itself handles much of the important stuff. There are viruses that can completely kill a computer - but that can only happen with the help of a stupid (ok careless) user. Long ago the idiots didn't survive long. Technology has taken over for the human brain so now they need protection from themselves. Hitting them in the pocketbook is equivalent to a slap in the head. Perhaps they'll use their brain the next time?

Troy

[Troy]

Any way, back to the problem at hand...

I used to fly radio control airplanes and the radio receiver/controls had their own battery power (usually the radio equipment is sold separately and can be swapped between planes easily). If the receiver battery got too low you'd lose control of the plane. Now that electric planes are getting popular, I see that many come pre-assembled and ready-to-fly. These typically only have one battery pack which supplies power to the radio AND engines (much like the Tesla roadster). Unlike the car, you're pretty much "hands on" with the plane so there is little chance for the battery to completely discharge without your knowledge. You'd have big problems in that case any way - probably pieces of a plane scattered around a new dent in the ground.

*IF* the Tesla could be equipped with an auxiliary battery like the older planes to handle the control/accessory/non-powertrain duties then it would mostly solve the discharge problem (assuming a "shunt" could be placed on the main battery to cut off any parasitic draw). Most batteries will discharge over time even without a load so there's still a chance to kill it completely (common automotive batteries lose something like 13% per month). The auxiliary battery could be a deep dwell or something that isn't as picky about discharging to keep its cost down if it died.

While this is better, it has some drawbacks - primarily cost, weight, and complexity. It's certainly cheaper (for the owner) than a $40k replacement of the main battery. However, for the owners who follow the instructions, it's unnecessary and possibly unwanted. There may be something overlooked in this simple view - like maybe a need to periodically "query" the main battery for status updates which would take some small bit of power. I don't think there's a 100% reliable solution - other than having the owner maintain the charge. It's also no help to anyone with a "brick" already.

I can't help but be reminded of people who have filled up their diesel vehicle with gasoline. Does the manufacturer cover the replacement engine? Doubtful. Even though the pump nozzles are different sizes and colors and there are multiple warnings posted some people just can't figure it out. Not to mention people who mix up other fluids under the hood (power steering in the brake fluid, washer fluid in the coolant, etc.). These aren't always as expensive but still cause damage. These are cases where an owner's actions get then into trouble - but isn't inaction just as serious?

Troy

[Mike DC]

   
Diesel truck owners are generally aware that putting regular gasoline into their truck is probably not the greatest thing to do to it.  Most Tesla owners didn't seem to have any real awareness of the damage the battery flattening would do.  Most people have grown up in a world where car batteries going flat is not an expensive or serious mistake. 

And the fact is, these days idiot-proofing has become an arms race.  I'm sure Tesla told them "don't do it" but you can probably find that same kind of warning on cheap conventional car batteries too.  If Tesla didn't convey the severity of the issue then where in the hell were the customers expected to learn it from?  If 21st century consumers refrained from doing EVERYTHING that they are ever warned against doing, they can barely even use some products at all.   


Once again I'm not saying Tesla technically owes their customers new batteries.  They don't.  But they also aren't going to last very long doing business this way. 

[bull]

 
Diesel truck owners are generally aware that putting regular gasoline into their truck is probably not the greatest thing to do to it.  Most Tesla owners didn't seem to have any real awareness of the damage the battery flattening would do.  Most people have grown up in a world where car batteries going flat is not an expensive or serious mistake.  

And the fact is, these days idiot-proofing has become an arms race.  I'm sure Tesla told them "don't do it" but you can probably find that same kind of warning on cheap conventional car batteries too.  If Tesla didn't convey the severity of the issue then where in the hell were the customers expected to learn it from?  If 21st century consumers refrained from doing EVERYTHING that they are ever warned against doing, they can barely even use some products at all.  


Once again I'm not saying Tesla technically owes their customers new batteries.  They don't.  But they also aren't going to last very long doing business this way.  

Now that you mention it I think it would be quite intersting to compare any warnings on conventional car batteries with the warnings about these Tesla batteries. I'd be curious to see if the difference in the urgency matches the $31,800 (give or take) price difference.

[bordin34]

I think they are just like any other Lithium battery, if you discharge them fully you cant recharge them. Also Lithium batteries worry me in a crash. I've played with old LiPo batteries by poking holes in them and the violently catch fire.

[Troy]

So does the warning about not using your hair dryer in the bathtub need to be bigger? It's not visible to blind people either. Perhaps every hair dryer should include a midget and a bullhorn...

Any way, here's a bit more information on the subject from Tesla:

The earliest Roadsters will take over two months to discharge if parked at a 50 percent charge without being plugged in. From that starting point, Tesla has consistently innovated and improved our battery technology. For example, a Model S battery parked with 50 percent charge would approach full discharge only after about 12 months. Model S batteries also have the ability to protect themselves as they approach very low charge levels by going into a “deep sleep” mode that lowers the loss even further. A Model S will not allow its battery to fall below about 5 percent charge. At that point the car can still sit for many months. Of course you can drive a Model S to 0 percent charge, but even in that circumstance, if you plug it in within 30 days, the battery will recover normally.

http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/plug-it

So, it sounds like they're already improving AND giving the owner more options. Imagine that!

Quote from an owner regarding this issue:

I was well-informed by Tesla prior to delivery (and upon delivery) regarding battery maintenance. A poll on the TMC forum indicates EV owners are well aware of their responsibilities regarding battery maintenance.

http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/jalopniks-article-tesla-motors%E2%80%99-devastating-design-problem

For the record, the car comes with a charging cable and a "spare" can be purchased for $600. The permanent "high power" charging station and "universal mobile connector" are only $1,500 each. There are adapters for practically every conceivable plug type. After reading the forums there it seems like standard practice for everyone to plug the car in each night. Problem solved.

Another point, just because you have a blog does not mean you're a journalist. Blogs are opinions and most of the mainstream ones rarely seem to contain any real research (in my opinion any way). Their purpose is to generate traffic - which usually also generates revenue. Much like the "news", the more sensationalistic you can be the more people will run with whatever you say. This is what bugs me the most about legitimate news sources that display blogs right along with real articles. People assume both meet the same standards (not that standards for news are very high these days).

Troy

[Paul G]

Tesla put notice in its manual to keep the vehicle plugged in. A friend of mine owns one. He has told me that you can not let the battery totally discharge. He was fully aware of that when he purchased it. As for engineering, you can make something idiot proof, but there will always be a better idiot. Tesla is a unique vehicle with unique owner responsibilities. If a person chooses to own one, then does not follow recommended procedures, why is that Tesla's fault? If you don't follow the manual, and damage something as a result, take the hit and chalk it up to experience. If you can afford a $100,000 niche vehicle, you should be able to afford a $40,000 repair bill. Maybe these people should be driving a Prius! 

I am a little biased when it comes to stupid things people do. I have been in industrial maintenance all my life. I have seen some of the best "idiots" available to man, and had to "clean up" after them. I have a very low tolerance for stupidity. (especially my own  ) 

The Tesla Roadster Owners Manual begins with several "Important Notes About Your Vehicle" [Page 1-2: PDF], none of which make any mention of battery discharge. In Chapter 5 of the manual, where vehicle charging is addressed, Tesla states that the vehicle is "designed to be plugged in" and that allowing the charge level to fall to 0% "can permanently damage the Battery." [Page 5-2: PDF] It does not specify that a completely discharged battery may need to be replaced, entirely at the owner's expense, at a cost that could be the majority of the value of the vehicle.

The writer of this paragraph states;
"allowing the charge level to fall to 0% "can permanently damage the Battery" , "It does not specify that a completely discharged battery may need to be replaced, entirely at the owner's expense".
What is it about permanently damaged is un clear?

[Mike DC]

     
So did the customers know it was an automatic $30-40,000 repair bill to let the battery go flat, or not?  Either Tesla spelled it out or they didn't.  All the warning labels in the world don't hold a candle to simply saying "It will cost you at least $30K every single time you let the battery go completely flat." 

[bull]

So does the warning about not using your hair dryer in the bathtub need to be bigger? It's not visible to blind people either. Perhaps every hair dryer should include a midget and a bullhorn...!

Troy

Actually, I don't think it's possible to electrocute yourself anymore if you've got an appliance or house that was built during the past 10 years or so, so that issue has been idiot proofed too.

     
So did the customers know it was an automatic $30-40,000 repair bill to let the battery go flat, or not?  Either Tesla spelled it out or they didn't.  All the warning labels in the world don't hold a candle to simply saying "It will cost you at least $30K every single time you let the battery go completely flat."  

Yea, no kidding. Nothing says "pay attention, dummy" like a $40k repair bill.

[Ghoste]

And nothing says "inform your customers" like a class action lawsuit.  Why have the lawyers not descended on this if there are any grounds?  After all if they can make a fast food chain put a warning on cups that coffee is hot...

[bull]

And nothing says "inform your customers" like a class action lawsuit.  Why have the lawyers not descended on this if there are any grounds? 

Maybe they have.

[mauve66]

what about the hundreds of millions they got from the government??
and the car they build will have the same type of battery issues to a larger/less affluent population than ever before
more government money to private companies, amtrak started this years ago, ever wonder why the highway bridges don't get fixed, amtrak needs a pension fund