Repro wing car metal nose tech ?

[dayclona]

Mike,

Just because Hackett Brass was initially commissioned to build 50 wing stanchions does NOT mean there were no plans to build corresponding street versions.  You're making a giant leap in logic, by taking the initial Hackett Brass instructions and assuming that is the limit and extent to the whole of the Daytona project.  It still looks to me like those first (Race) Daytona vertical stabilizers are taller than a street Daytona's, although it could just be the angle of the photography (but I have 28 Race Daytona pictures hanging on the wall, and 12 more in the drawer that look mostly the same in that regard).

.  The links to the articles are not working right now,
                 
       The "squid tube" stanchions were never used (except on the red prototype "mule" daytona), your 28 +12 pics of daytona race cars are indeed wearing "race configuration" wings (they differ in internal structure and mounting systems, but outward appearances, are identical to "street wing),..........................like I said "do you know what a squid tube looks like?".....................find one,..........................you'll be surprised!....................hummmm, 50 ?.................why not the full compliment of 500+ needed, if the daytona was going to be offered right from the start as a "production car", ......why would we need 50 hedious "squid tube" stanchions?.............couldn't put them  on the "racecar", and offer something else on the "street version",.........now could we?..........................perhaps Wingcar6970 has a "squid" pic,?.............no?

And yes "kudos " to Dave B for encouraging  Sue George for printing the information, ...............as most of us in the "know" ,................find S. George will only print, discuss items that are "sliced, diced, and spoon fed" to her(re: she has no time for research, you do it for her!)...............(trust me!),............this is why I, and others , have not shared photos, docs,etc any longer with W. Warriors,.......the last time photos,info was shared with her "club officers",.............and I contacted her several months later for a "whats up",......................her reply" My people don't share info with me , if you could send me the info, plus write the column, story,bio, supply the pics, etc, etc!.......................................( hell if I'm gonna do that!, mind as well print my own newsletter!)................................................................................. What kind of club is this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!So her club officers retain information gathered as personal info!,..........while masquerading as "do gooders" for the club, to obtain info,!.............................................................................

I've allready "handed out" info,...............I've led you to it ,find it, just as I had to many years ago!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                                                                 




PS ,.....................yeah!   W. Wonders is a "sore" spot,  not only with me but with many people   if you had the "behind the scenes" knowledge/ experiences with the groups individuals, that I've had with them, (believe me there are lot more!)you'd understand my attitude!




Mike G/ DAYCLONA

[hemigeno]

I've allready "handed out" info,...............I've led you to it ,find it, just as I had to many years ago!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                                                                 

What exactly have you "led" me to?

      

I'm not the naiive person you obviously think I am when it comes to WW, so don't assume I have had no interesting experiences with them - you'd be mistaken.  I'll leave it at that.   

[nascarxx29]

I Usually send thru the mail or email both clubs Im in. Any new wingcar related discoverys. I come across.To ad more content to the already informative newsletter I recieve.Hopefully more will do the same and share the info.So more can be found out about our special cars

[hemigeno]

I agree, if the folks that do run across things of interest would share them (as I'm in the process of doing with this Product Planning Letter), the whole state of the hobby would be better off.

Dave, did you get my PM?

[Ghoste]

Mike, just as a point of clarification for myself, when you talk about the GM aero cars as being dealer built, do you mean they built a specific number based on the number of dealers or that they were a conversion done at the dealerships?

[nascarxx29]

Now Im looking for something else nosecone related.Where I think I read about on a racing daytona where the nose was made from a hard rubber compound weighing 150 LBS.

[69_500]

Wow this thread went way out its origional course didn't it.

Iteresting reading, now I wish I had read it before hand, instead of having to read it all now.

[dayclona]

Mike, just as a point of clarification for myself, when you talk about the GM aero cars as being dealer built, do you mean they built a specific number based on the number of dealers or that they were a conversion done at the dealerships?

         Ghoste,

      GM, suupplied the dealers with the required number of kits to satisfy Nascar min. requirement to "allow" the airdam, rear "glassback", trunk, rear airfoil modifications to new/ exsisting raceteam cars, as to whether the full number of  dealer cars was built, we'll have to get a shivy guy too tell us!....................all Nascar was concerned  about , was the min number of kits was issued!.....................several manufactures over the history of racing have tried to circumvent racing rules, limits, requirements, etc............... some more suscessful then others;..........sometimes if a manufacturer is a dominant force to contend with they usally get their way..............................look how long chevrolet  has dominated racing, at one time Mopar was the force to reckon with.................but they lacked the "backbone" to command it! and maintain it!..................with Chryslers new presence,....................we're still waiting for those glory days!...............now had the 06 Charger been what it should have been...........a true Daytona.............I think we'd all be happy!.......................later Ghoste!


MG

[Ghoste]

Well I take issue with that then Mike because I was working for a Pontiac dealer at that time and I absolutely guarantee you that they rolled off the truck and went out onto the lots that way.  We had a couple of the Grand Prix's go through.
If I dig deep enough, I probably still have my order binders from that time as well because I'm pretty sure they were an RPO (regular production option).

[nascarxx29]

I found the magazine with discussion of the 71 Bobby Issac daytona .And Harry Hyde statements.The nose which weighed 100lbs and was constructed of a ((hardrubber compound)) bolted onto the front of the car.It contained a air intake to cool the radiator.and at the bottom edge a spoiler that was a as wide as the car.The sloped front end and the spoiler working together gave us a  positive down force of about 200lbs said Hyde.
Then I found a copy of competetion press and autoweek May 3 69.Introducing .Dodges charger daytona to make Talledega debut. Where it describes the car as of having a wedge shaped nose with a( rubber bumper) on its front end.And that the hood and front fenders forward of the wheels are made of plastic which keeps the price down and weight down on a limited production model like the daytona .The side of the car also has sculpturing different from the present charger .These pieces are steel and its believed dies are the same as those already planned for use on next years charger

[hemigeno]

Well I take issue with that then Mike because I was working for a Pontiac dealer at that time and I absolutely guarantee you that they rolled off the truck and went out onto the lots that way.  We had a couple of the Grand Prix's go through.
If I dig deep enough, I probably still have my order binders from that time as well because I'm pretty sure they were an RPO (regular production option).

 

This oughta be good, Ghoste...

[Ghoste]

Well I have to dig up the binders if I still have them then.  We definitely did not do any conversions at our dealership.  Our owner was reluctant to even have one in for stock.  He hated Firebirds too.  He wanted to sell lots of Sunbirds, 6000's, and Century's.  He would never have ordered one that he had to "finish".  We had two come in that I remember for stock and one or two more that came in for ordered units.  Not at the same time of course but over the span of a couple of years.  They were not outrageously popular.

[dayclona]

Well I take issue with that then Mike because I was working for a Pontiac dealer at that time and I absolutely guarantee you that they rolled off the truck and went out onto the lots that way.  We had a couple of the Grand Prix's go through.
If I dig deep enough, I probably still have my order binders from that time as well because I'm pretty sure they were an RPO (regular production option).

       Well Ghoste,

  I know thats what I had read, regarding them being a "dealer conversion" and the accompanying disclaimers on certain warranted items, when my friend was ordering his monte ss, perhaps your dealership wasn't authorized, equiped?................perhaps your dealership transfered,purchased those cars,...............perhaps the cars became RPO later in production? ................I don't cater to/ collect GM documents................sorry didn't work there?...................whats next ..........GNX's............were'nt coverted at  ASC

MG

[Ghoste]

We aren't talking about GNX's and I'm not a Chevy expert either.  As far as an authorized dealer, it said Pontiac Buick on the sign so someone must have okayed it at least that much.  The dealership is still here in town and even though it's a small town they still generally have 50 to 100 new units in inventory.
It's not pertinent to this discussion but I am going to find out what I can just to satisfy myself.
The only other thing I can think of is that it's because I'm in Canada and IIRC, those cars were made in Canada at the time.

[Ghoste]

Found some.  The cars were built in Texas and the conversion was done by Cars and Concepts in Michigan prior to being shipped to dealers and it was an RPO.  There are rumors of some fake ones out there that may or may not have been dealer conversions so perhaps we are both right.
And just so it's pertinent, apparently Richard Petty worked closely with GM to develop the car which was initiated by a request from him in the first place.  Seems he learned a thing or two from the Chrysler wing car program huh?

[dayclona]

Well I take issue with that then Mike because I was working for a Pontiac dealer at that time and I absolutely guarantee you that they rolled off the truck and went out onto the lots that way.  We had a couple of the Grand Prix's go through.
If I dig deep enough, I probably still have my order binders from that time as well because I'm pretty sure they were an RPO (regular production option).

 

This oughta be good, Ghoste...

     
FYI..............or GFY,......................Excuse me, I was busy researching!...............1986 monte carlo aero coupe, requires the purchase of " base model SS................add sales code B5T.............resulting in dealer installed aero coupe SS package...................201 units converted in 86,


the Monte Carlo SS aero coupe became a standard RPO in 1987..................RPO Z-65.................2285 units manufactured

So Ghoste you were correct, so was I............................................................................................Hey Homogene, you find that "squid tube" yet?.( want me to research that too!)....................................don't choke on that "popcorn"   ................"Pal"              



MG

[Ghoste]

Seems different between Chev and Pontiac as well since the Pontiacs were only done in 86 and only came as a fully loaded model.  One RPO code and no other options.
But actually, according to the Mont Carlo Aerocoupe Registry, ALL Aerocoupe conversions were done by Cars and Concepts.  They don't say anything about dealer installs.

[dayclona]

Seems different between Chev and Pontiac as well since the Pontiacs were only done in 86 and only came as a fully loaded model.  One RPO code and no other options.
But actually, according to the Mont Carlo Aerocoupe Registry, ALL Aerocoupe conversions were done by Cars and Concepts.  They don't say anything about dealer installs.

   

    Hey Ghoste seeing that this post is so far gone off track! ( although Dave's still trying hard to keep it on track!!!!)........never cared much for the monte..............cool in its own way though!...(aero packageONLY!)..................what engines were available in the pontiacs 2+2 aero coupes?................or what engines were in "your" Canadian cars,....................305?.............."Iron Duke 4 cycl?............PM, me if you so desire or hell post here,...................maybe Hemigene-o might be interested?


MG

[dayclona]

Seems different between Chev and Pontiac as well since the Pontiacs were only done in 86 and only came as a fully loaded model.  One RPO code and no other options.
But actually, according to the Mont Carlo Aerocoupe Registry, ALL Aerocoupe conversions were done by Cars and Concepts.  They don't say anything about dealer installs.

    Ghoste,.................was/ is  Cars and Concepts,.......like a "Creative Industries"?.............or a performance dealer converting models????distributing them???............for ex:............remember Baldwin/  Motion,..................later Motion Motors............coverted all kinds of chevy/GM,..........factory authorized conversions/ customs................I remember them (loc. Detroit, Mich) because my brother would allways have there dealer brochures!.............he was/ is a GM guy (sad)!!!!


MG

[Ghoste]

4 cyls?  In a GP?  In that era they came the same as the US ones with 305's.  I didn't care for them either but I do remember that well as GM was too many years into it's "corporate engine" program and there were still customers who would complain.  C&C was not a dealer, they would be more like Creative.  They also used ASC a lot.
I recall thinking how much uglier it was than the Daytona and scoffing to people about GM whining about an "unfair advantage" when Chrysler did it but now that Mopar was out of it, apparently it was okay.
Until last night, I didn't know anything about Petty's involvement with it so I guess some good came out of discussing it.
I wonder if they will ever achieve the kind of rapid following that the real wing cars have?
Backing up a little to try and save the thread, do you think Autoweek even sent anyone to see the car or did they get their info off a teletype machine someplace?

[dayclona]

4 cyls?  In a GP?  In that era they came the same as the US ones with 305's.  I didn't care for them either but I do remember that well as GM was too many years into it's "corporate engine" program and there were still customers who would complain.  C&C was not a dealer, they would be more like Creative.  They also used ASC a lot.
I recall thinking how much uglier it was than the Daytona and scoffing to people about GM whining about an "unfair advantage" when Chrysler did it but now that Mopar was out of it, apparently it was okay.
Until last night, I didn't know anything about Petty's involvement with it so I guess some good came out of discussing it.
I wonder if they will ever achieve the kind of rapid following that the real wing cars have?
Backing up a little to try and save the thread, do you think Autoweek even sent anyone to see the car or did they get their info off a teletype machine someplace?

    Thanks for the info, Ghoste!..............even though it's GM..............it's somewhat,.........Aero-related,..as for the 4 cyl. request, I had heard some GP's 2+2 's were equipped this way?.............just rumor, allways wondered though?................................OK back to your last reply, to save the thread,.................probally, a teletype, or based on earlier "press releases",...............seeing it's a May realease, some publisher's sometimes had several months lead time,...................as the 1st daytona was a April 1 69 build date, I would think the design was finialized


MG

[hemigeno]

Hey Homogene, you find that "squid tube" yet?.( want me to research that too!)....................................don't choke on that "popcorn"   ................"Pal"              

Mike,

Do you always resort to personal insults when you cannot win a debate?

I'm still waiting on you to produce any credible evidence that the Daytona program was ever intended to be 50 cars as you have explicitly insisted.  Could it be that there's not any? 

I will not be dissuaded by your attempt to pursue rabbit-trail side issues.  If you have information to share, fine.  If not, at least admit it.

Best and Kindest Regards to you, Sir

Your "Pal" Gene

[69_500]

Rabbit trails aside I always thought the first Dayton was built on February 7th 1969

Interesting read about the GM cars, and I too wonder if in another 5-6 years they will have a club following as faithful as the aero cars from 69-70 did in the late 70's to date.


So about this squib tube, does anyone actually have a version of this? Or is it just something that was reported, and not ever actually seen?

[hemigeno]

Danny,

You're right, Dale Reeker's car does have a 2/07 build date.  The first/next Daytona batch was built at Hamtramck on 4/27.

It's weird how that the lowest (read: first) VIN assigned as a Daytona, is #502 (read: dead last) on the Shipping List, and shows a ship date of 9/8 - the last day they were listed as having been shipped out. 

Of course, if they did a last-minute tally and found they were a car or two short, they could always have "added" Mr. Reeker's car to the list.  That would be one car NASCAR wouldn't bother trying to verify if it had been converted and shipped or not - of course Mr. Reeker would tell them it had been (whether it was yet or not).  Has anyone seen this car to know what its fender tag or broadcast sheet says, and if it still exists as a Daytona?

[nascarxx29]

I dont about Feb 7th .But the daytona build date start a 427 April --612 June 12 th I believe.Unless refering to my old wingcar friend Les B that car had a low 287*** vin. Im not sure but I might have a picture of the fender tag. .And when the discussion of many pages of wing car chatter was on moparts.On the vintage wingcar link.I brought up who remembered that 287 car.And a fender tag or something like a old wingcar vin list showing that 287 car was posted I think.And I got a pm that the car was around but didnt want it disclosed any further