Engine/trans combo for daily driving

[Dino]

Ok so I'm wondering what engine I want in a 69 Charger.  I am looking to buy a running car right now but since I would like to drive it as much as possible, fuel mileage is a pretty big factor.  I am also considering an efi conversion later on.

Many years ago I had a 68 with a 383 4bbl and it was a fun ride despite the poor mpg.  I was in my early twenties and loved the power and torque.  Now I'm heading towards forty and I really don't care all that much anymore.  From time to time I drive my wife's 02 Trans Am WS6 with manual 6 spd and I never push it. She does, and the car is pretty fast off the line.  When I shift into second and am already breaking the law.  Honestly, the places I drive you better not act like an idiot, lots of people with their kids around, lots of bikes and let's not forget the occasional dear crossing the road.  55 is the speed limit in my area and it is plenty.  On the freeway I'm between 70 and 80 and I rarely take the freeway anymore so I don't need all that much power.  Sure it's fun to have it, but will I use it?

I'm thinking that a 318 might be what I need right now and maybe, in the future, I can swap it for a 5.9 magnum with efi.  I would also love to have a manual transmission at that time.

Does anyone know what numbers to expect with a 318/727 and a 5.9/manual or auto?  Average fuel consumption, 0-60 times (just curious), things like that.  Again I won't be doing much more than driving to work and back and taking weekend trips in the country.  I love the big blocks but I think it would be a big waste of power.  The 318 also seems pretty reliable, then again I never really had any issues with the 383.

The more I look at chargers, the more I am leaning towards a base 318 car that I can play around with a little.  I intend to add power disc brakes to the car, power windows, custom seat belt system and some more things and I really don't have it in me to take a numbers matching car and mod it, especially R/T's.

Thoughts?

[tatrick2me]

If you even have to think about gas mileage you can't afford a 69 Charger.

[Dans 68]

Pithy reply, but not really true. You can easily get over 20 mpg with a small block Charger. 30 mpg is out of the question, of course. This thread explores some of our members experiences on this burning subject....http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,5247.0.html

Dan

[Dino]

If you even have to think about gas mileage you can't afford a 69 Charger.

If I have a choice between driving a charger that does 10mpg or one that does 20mpg I think that would be something to seriously consider.  I think about gas mileage because I want to put some actual miles on it, it won't be an occasional Sunday driver that never sees the rain.  If I want to drive a few hundred miles a year then I could put a 440 in it, and not care about its boozing, but in this instance I think it would be wasted.

I don't see why you have to have louzy gas mileage if you have the option to run something a bit more economical.  I can afford the car and the engine, I just don't want to burn all my money or spend my time looking for the next gas station.  Been there, don't want to go there anymore.

[Dino]

Pithy reply, but not really true. You can easily get over 20 mpg with a small block Charger. 30 mpg is out of the question, of course. This thread explores some of our members experiences on this burning subject....http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,5247.0.html

Dan

Thanks!  That's a very interesting thread.  Lots of different outcomes with similar setups although the numbers for 383's seem to correlate with what mine used to do.  I really like the idea of 20mpg, I really do not like the idea of 4-8 with a 440, that just hurts thinking about it!  My regular gas station has really slow pumps and I would hate to spend more time there.....

Now I would love to hear how those 318 chargers run.  Took a spin in a 71 or 72 with a 318 once and although it wouldn't win too many races, it was not half bad.  So 318 owners, how does your second gen run?  Swift?  Slow?  Embarrassing?  Could it beat my 4 banger Accord?   

[Troy]

If you even have to think about gas mileage you can't afford a 69 Charger.

That's a pretty silly reply. I manage to blow through plenty of fuel BUT some of us don't appreciate having to stop for gas every 100 miles. Cruising at 80 (no I don't have 4.10 gears) means I'd have to stop every hour and 15 minutes. Long trips like going to Carlisle or the Power Tour would absolutely suck!

My reply is probably in another thread but...
73 Barracuda 318 (4bbl) auto 2.76 rear: up to 23 mpg on the highway (cruising 75-80) and about 18 average
68 Charger R/T 440 auto 3.23 rear: 10-14 mpg average (best on the highway)
70 Challenger 440 Six Pack 4-speed clone 2.76 rear: 16.8 mpg on the trip to Carlisle last year (75-80 mph)
same car with 3.91s got about 12 going to the Nationals at 61 mph (ugh!!!)
same car with 3.23s got 15.5 going to Monster Mopar (75 mph)
76 Power Wagon 4x4 440 auto 33" tires and 4.10 gears: 7 mpg in 2WD and about 4ish in 4WD

My first car was a 70 Challenger with a 318 2bbl automatic and my second was a 68 Charger with the same drivetrain (although the Charger had a 727 while the Challenger had a 904). I had highway gears but both were more than enough to get a 16-18 year old kid in plenty of trouble (although I didn't get into any really). The 318 is pretty indestructible and there's lots of room in the engine bay to work if necessary. The 68-70 318 was reasonably powerful - more than you'd expect. The car should handle slightly better with less weight on the nose but the small block cars got wimpy suspension and brakes so it's probably a toss-up. The Charger is a nice ride on the highway with any engine. A 4-speed behind a small block would certainly increase the "fun factor" when you feel like playing around. A modern engine with EFI and the higher power rating would make for a very nice cruiser.

Troy

[Rolling_Thunder]

I would suggest a 318 auto to start...    I used to get 18mpg average with 2.76 gears...                 

I am really curious what my 6.1L / 5-speed / 3.55s will return mpg wise...   

[Dino]

Thanks Troy and Rolling_Thunder.

Those numbers look very promising, 18mpg average is music to my ears!  Now I'm assuming that's midgrade fuel or do these 318's run on 87?  Not a big deal just curious. 

I think a 318 with auto would be the ideal starter indeed, whatever engine it has, it's not going to beat the trans am so why bother anyway.   

The brakes will be swapped with power disc brakes asap so I'm not too worried there, suspension will depend, if I feel it needs something beefier then I'll change it but it might be ok for a cruiser.

I know there's a ton of info on this board regarding gear ratio's so I'll have to look up what would be ideal for my use.  I guess 2.76 is pretty standard for a 318?  Now does it matter much what trans is mounted to a 318?  I have seen them both with 727 and 904 so if I find a car with a 904, should I swap it for a 727 or would it be fine until I find a different engine?  A 4 speed would be great but eventually I will go for a modern engine so I may better do engine and trans swap in one go.  Sounds like a winter project to me!

Rolling_Thunder I am very curious to hear how that 6.1 performs and what mpg you get.  I would likely go for the somewhat cheaper 5.9 with a manual trans but nonetheless I'm intrigued by your setup!

Troy you know 5.9 magnums, I know they were available with a manual trans, is this a combo that can be transplanted in a charger with some modification?  Also what years are best for a magnum?

[gtx6970]

a 318, or maybe even  upgrade to a 5.2 or 5.9 magnum coupled with an old 4 spd overdrive trans should pull mid 20's without to much trouble

383 with one of those trans should be pretty good as well.

A friend of mine used to have a 383 2bbl 4 spd superbird , with 2.76 gears and it would pull high teens or just berely crack the low 20's mark on fuel mileage without to much trouble if you kept your  foot out of it.

[Troy]

I could run 87 in my Barracuda but generally ran it with 89 "just in case". I'm positive I used the "cheap stuff" in my high school cars. I have to put 91-93 in the Mach 1 (351) and I assume I'll need to do the same for the 340 in the green Challenger due to the high compression in each. The 440s get the good stuff - except for the Power Wagon. The 318 can save you 20-30 cents per gallon in that regard.

I *believe* that the 904 was supposed to be standard behind a 318. However, my first 68 had a 727 and it didn't appear that the car had ever been changed. I could even look it up in parts books and get the correct filters etc. Of course, I knew nothing about numbers back then and didn't document anything. My first Challenger had a 904 which is standard behind all small blocks except the 340 (in 1970 at least). My green Challenger has a 727 but that's because it's a 340 car. I picked up a later version that uses a lock up converter which should help the mileage (I have a spare if you need it too). As a general rule, the 904 is lighter and has less parasitic loss - at the expense of being weaker. However, a lot of racers use the 904 so it can be built. I wouldn't mess with it if you eventually want a 4-speed. I believe the 727 is longer (but the same as the 4-speed I think) so you'd need some drive shaft work for a swap.

The 2.76 rear was standard for just about everything except 4-speed cars (which got at least a 3.23). Anything performance minded got a 3.23 or higher. Of my 68s, the 383 2bbl auto and 318 auto came with 2.76 gears, the 383 4bbl auto and R/T 440 auto with 3.23 gears and the R/T 440 4-speed with a 3.54 (Dana). My 70 Challenger 340 auto came with a 3.23 Sure Grip and the other (originally Slant Six 3-speed) with 2.76. You have to remember that the stock tire on these cars was about 26" tall so if you change tires to the more common sizes you'll also be changing the "effective" gear ratio. A 275/60-15 is about 28" tall which makes a 3.23 feel like a 3.00 (or so). You probably won't care too much until you try slipping a clutch with a 2.50!

If you're bored we could spend a few weekends doing engine swaps - I think I have one of each of whatever you're looking at (although I sold the 426 and 5.7 Hemis so those are out). The modern Mopar engines are essentially small blocks and use the same motor mounts and trans bolt locations so any transmission that will bolt up behind an older LA motor will fit. There's a special flywheel for the 5.9 because it's balanced differently but that's about the only hurdle. You'll need to decide if you're going to keep the serpentine belt setup and/or EFI because it affects what you need to do for a fuel pump (5.9 uses an electric pump so there is no provision for the mechanical one). If you're going to get one, you might as well get a later version because it will come with a roller cam. Mine's a 2002 which was the last year. If you keep the EFI you'll want a computer from a stick shift or it will freak out when it can't find the transmission. Having said that, you could also swap in an A518 overdrive trans for even better mileage. HotRod98 has a drive train from a 2001 truck in his wife's Cuda and gets about 26 mpg (and it starts in all weather, has cruise control, and plenty of power).

Troy

[madmike]

I would personally swap in a 360 with EFI, and a manual transmission, like one of Passon's new five speeds.  I think that would make an excellent daily driver, the stick shift would make it a blast to drive, the overdrive would allow freeway cruising at speed with good economy, and the engine would be easy to work on under the hood, unlike big blocks with headers...

With the right rear end gear, and the overdrive tranny, I bet you could still 'get into trouble' with it...

[Dino]

Well I guess that settles it.  Although a well tuned 383 may return decent numbers, a 318 seems to be better for my application.  Both would likely be ok to start though as I would love to swap whatever the charger has with a 360.

Then again a 318 car should be cheaper and I wouldn't mind messing with a numbers matching 318 car, a 383 I would probably let sit for someone who really wants one.

Thank you all for the comments, it is much appreciated.

[Troy]

They made a LOT of 383 cars! In 69 there were just over 30k 318 cars and almost 35k 383 cars (almost an even split between 2bbl and 4bbl cars). The 383 will have more torque off the line and will rev a bit higher (nice if you aren't using highway gears). The mileage can be pretty good so it's a compromise between a few miles per gallon and a car that isn't as sluggish off the line. Chargers a heavy and take a little bit of persuasion to get moving. It's only a little more work to swap from a 383 to a small block (or the other way) with the primary hurdles being the transmission and exhaust manifolds. Big blocks only had the 727 for an automatic and you'd have to swap the entire thing since the bell housing is built in. A 4-speed just requires a different bell housing (small blocks and 383s uses the same 23 spline trans, flywheel, and clutch).

I'd rather mess with a non-numbers 383 car than a numbers 318 car. However, you'll find that many non-numbers 383 cars have been swapped to a 440. Heck, many non-numbers 318 cars have been swapped to a 440 (mine was slated to get a 383 before I bought it).

Troy

[Dino]

They made a LOT of 383 cars! In 69 there were just over 30k 318 cars and almost 35k 383 cars (almost an even split between 2bbl and 4bbl cars). The 383 will have more torque off the line and will rev a bit higher (nice if you aren't using highway gears). The mileage can be pretty good so it's a compromise between a few miles per gallon and a car that isn't as sluggish off the line. Chargers a heavy and take a little bit of persuasion to get moving. It's only a little more work to swap from a 383 to a small block (or the other way) with the primary hurdles being the transmission and exhaust manifolds. Big blocks only had the 727 for an automatic and you'd have to swap the entire thing since the bell housing is built in. A 4-speed just requires a different bell housing (small blocks and 383s uses the same 23 spline trans, flywheel, and clutch).

I'd rather mess with a non-numbers 383 car than a numbers 318 car. However, you'll find that many non-numbers 383 cars have been swapped to a 440. Heck, many non-numbers 318 cars have been swapped to a 440 (mine was slated to get a 383 before I bought it).

Troy

I have thought about a 383 2bbl which might do the trick as long as I stay away from the highway.  I certainly do more cruising than anything else but I don't want to limit myself to the back roads either.  A 318 won't win any races, in fact I'm pretty sure it can't beat my Honda but it will do for the first year or so.  Driving in winter is near impossible with a car like that so I will have the time to either play with the 318 or swap it for the 360.  The latter seems the better choice right now. 

I hear you on the matching numbers thing.  It would be better to take a non matching 383, than a matching 318, and play with that and it's ceretainly an option.  I'd want to swap it for a 360 pretty soon though.  Any idea on performance with a 360 and manual trans?  It dioesn't have the 383's HP but since it's a much more efficient engine I'm hoping it will do pretty well.

[Troy]

Honestly, the 383 2bbl would probably be pretty efficient on the highway. My first Charger had a huge Carter on it - the same kind the circle track users crave. My Mach 1 had a 2bbl off of a 390. I think it flowed 525 or so. The fun thing about 2bbls is that there's no "secondary lag" when you stomp on it. You'll run out of fuel/air before you break any speed records though.

In 68-69 the 383 2bbl was rated at 290 hp/390 ft/lbs (gross rating) while the last 5.9 was rated at 245 hp/335 ft/lbs (net rating). You're not giving up much horsepower but you will be down on (peak) torque. Of course, the 5.9 was also designed for a 4,500 pound truck so all the "grunt" is at lower RPM - right where you need it in a Charger. The 383 4bbl had a few changes (cam, intake, exhaust) and was good for 335 hp/425 ft/lbs (also gross). However, sticking headers, a *good* intake, and a carb on a 5.9 will really wake it up and a cam change will put it on par with (or better than) the 383 4bbl. Of course, then you lose the EFI. Keeping the EFI limits the cam you can use but there are a lot of guys running trucks at the drag strip with lots of power and most of the factory equipment so it can be done. I'd save my money on the upgrades for a "cruiser".

Troy

[Dino]

Yeah the 5.9 with EFI is the way to go for me, I think it will be a really fun car, especially if I bolt a manual trans to it!

I can drive a Charger with 318 or 383 until the swap happens, I'm sure either one will make me happy.  A slug or a gas guzzler engine will just make me do the swap sooner than later!

There's quite a few 69's for sale at this moment, too bad most are numbers matching and I want to save those for the people who want to restore them.  I know someone can come along and yank the original engine out and do as they please with it, but it won't be me.  Of course you were right again because almost all are 383 cars, not one 318 in there...

Prices are all over the place though, real nice driver cars go for 15-20K one day, the next you pay 13-14 for a pos.  Weird.