Thinking about updating to modern engine

[JR]

I've been kicking some ideas around for the best way to upgrade my 70 Charger.

Basically, im tired of my cast iron 440. It's outdated. It weighs 700 lbs. Its grossly inefficient, and in the best case scenario, a streetable, reliable version of it would make 300 real world net hp, while running a 13 sec qtr in a 3400 lb charger. Not to mention its 40 year old tech, so power delivery isn't optimal, 12mpg is normal, and I can expect to be under the hood weekly changing plugs. My current six pack 440 is far from optimal a setup, wrong heads, stock 73 pistons, etc, but im tired of the old tech.

Ive been wanting to do a modern 5.7 hemi upgrade, keeping the fuel injection and modern conviences. It will be alot of work wiring and setting up a modern engine, but when im done the idea of having a classic Charger with 100k mile tune up intervals, a 300 lb lighter nose, and a much more fuel efficient setup is very appealing.

Ideally, id love to build my car to drive similar in character to a BMW E39 M5. Their wonderfully smooth, 400hp, and incredibly controlled at any pace. Comfortable doing 20 mph in the city, cruising at 140 mph, or being run flat out on any open course. I know my 40 year old cars can't come close to the drivability and performance of the new ones all around, but I can atleast have the drivetrain from the new car.

My question is, do you guys have any suggestions to which engines you'd swap? I thought I was dead set on the 5.7 hemi, but then I see that the steering column has to be cut and modified, in addition to other modifications. Now I don't plan on doing anything that can't be put back to stock, but that got me to thinking.

If im going to go thru the trouble of swapping engines and doing associated wiring, fabbing, bracket making, etc, why limit myself to any particular engine? The 5.7 was probably designed in Canada, tooled by the Germans, and built by Mexicans.  Therefore its only relation to vintage Mopar we all love is the name of the wrapper.it comes in new. But honestly the new Hemis are no more kin to the classics than I am to teddy rosevelt.

Therefore, why limit my choices? There are a ton of good engines out there. The 5.6 V8 and 3.5 VQ series of Nissan engines are very smooth and powerful. I forget the displacement, but there is a Lexus V8 that is silky smooth and popular with the import crowd. Im not opposed to German engines, such as the 5.0 v8 from the M5 I mentioned, or any AMG Merc V8.  The downside with them will be more frequent maintainece and more expensive parts however.

I can't bring myself to consider a GM or Ford engine however, that just doesn't feel right.

And I do enjoy the silky smooth characteristics of an inline 6, such as the RB26 nissan, 2jz toyota, or any BMW 6, (my daily is a bmw 328, wonderful engine), im afraid id miss the v8 noise that is expected from a classic muscle car. But Damn if the weight savings, roomier engine bay, better handling, and refined drive don't sound nice also.

So what im getting at here, is what direction would you suggest for a swap? I realize if I go with a different brand engine, id have to use their trans also. So im considering that as I don't want to do any permanant modifications that couldn't be put back to stock in a weekend.

And I expect the popular response will be "keep the 440, that's sacrelidge" to put a brand x engine in there!"

But basically, it broils down to this. I grew up a Mopar guy. I was always the first one to show Mopar or No Car!, always anti anything else. But now, I've owned my 70 for 10 years. Its been off the road for the last 5. One stupid thing or another. Bu even when everything is working, I've still got a 40 year old, 700 lb cast iron, relic of an engine under the hood. A modern FWD Toyota Avalon will out accelerate, out brake, and outhandle my car in every way. Plus, wont need any maintenance aside from oil changes. Im tired of wrenchin every weekend, id rather be driving my Charger.

So, ideas guys?
 

[Troy]

It's all a trade-off. Do you want modern conveniences/power/handling/mileage or a classic muscle car? Personally, I love technology BUT my cars still need to have their original "essence". I won't stick a blower through the hood or tub the rear for the same reasons I won't put something like a turbocharged non-Mopar 6 cylinder in them. EFI, big brakes, real (ie wide and grippy) tires, overdrive, A/C, and a decent sound system are all fair game though. Some guy stuck a Toyota (Supra?) straight 6 in a Camaro a couple of years ago. It's fast and really neat but it's no longer a "classic" and the negative reactions definitely outweighed the positive ones. Honestly, I have my old cars because the new ones can't compare with their style, beauty, and emotion. I have new cars for when I want modern conveniences.

Putting in a modern drive train will cost a lot more than you'd expect - and that's with using Mopar parts where conversions already exist! With the latest and greatest engines you're going to need the computers and sensors to run them so wiring gets complicated in a hurry. Many also have security controls which are coded to the car so you have to get around that. If you think maintenance is tough now, wait until you've got a Frankenstein stacked full of wires and custom parts! You can get similar power numbers to the 5.7 Hemi from 5.9 Magnum for about 1/5th of the cost (throw in a 408 stroker kit and you've got big block power for not much more). Yes, it's a little older but they are proven and readily available. The wiring is simpler and it bolts right in (similar mounts to the 318) and can use any transmission (an A518 will get you overdrive) so the only real upgrade is plumbing the electric fuel pump and lines. Mileage will likely be in the mid-20s. If you decide to go back to stock it's a breeze.

Once you get the drive train installed you'll still have 40 year old steering, suspension, interior, and (lack of) sealing and sound deadening. If you want you car to be comparable to anything built these days you'll need to stiffen up the chassis, upgrade *all* of the suspension, buy some really good brakes, put on some decent rubber, and find some comfortable seats. Figure on $12-20k.

Anything is possible of course. Mike Musto (NYCMille) has two Chargers that will pretty much hang with modern performance cars. Both still use heavy old engines - partially due to ease of maintenance I'm sure. Neither could be duplicated without spending a hefty sum. I doubt that either is as quiet or comfortable as a new sedan but he spends a lot of time in the seat criss-crossing the country.

I own the cars I do purely because of the driving experience they offer. I don't wrench on my cars - or at least very rarely. I drive them as often as possible (sometimes daily). When you try to eke out every last bit of performance then you have to constantly fiddle with stuff. I aim for reliability and drivability over raw power. I don't race (street or track) so I really don't care if another car is faster. My cars are "fast enough" to cause trouble and, overall, get decent mileage. My 440 Six Pack in the Challenger got just under 17 mpg on the 9 hour trip to Carlisle and my Barracuda used to average almost 23 (it was a 318 with 2.76 gears). I deal with leaky/drafty windows because I don't have to drive in the rain or cold. I always have the windows down any way because I love to hear (not smell) the exhaust. I deal with crummy sound systems for the same reason. The factory steering and suspension is actually pretty nice if you replace all the worn parts and upgrade a few key pieces. If you want to feel like you're in a modern car then buy a modern car.

Troy

[MSRacing89]

I think there is a lot new technology on the horizon to help these older engines.  Yes they are heavy and take up a lot of room but I personally feel that the engine makes the car what it is. 

We run an aluminum headed 11:1 440 (525hp) with fuel injection.  A full recirculating fuel system and hydraboost brakes.  Its easier to drive than my '08 truck.

I pieced together the bottom end parts for the motor and did a lot of research on the compression and cam combination.  The key is to do the right research and make the right decisions based on what you want to get out of the engine.  There is a lot of old school mentality so you have to make sure you talk to the right poeple.  The guy with the fully restored car with all stock parts is probably not going to be able to get you where you want to be.  But there are a lot of guys with extensive knowledge and improving the sometimes moody big blocks. 

[JR]

I should mention that the rest of the chassis is a fairly new rebuild. PST poly bushings. Disc brakes. Original RT suspension, arrow straight chassis, etc.

My two problems with the set up are one: the engine is mismatched and inefficient. It was a 73 truck motor, has 452 cylinder heads, and 9.1 pistons. So it just doesn't work well. I know I could rebuild the engine win better matched components, or install a crate engine that works well.

The problem is that the cast iron 440 still weighs 700lbs, still requires frequent maintenance, and is out performed by most modern engines with half the displacement.

I think it would be a much better all around drivers car with some minor weight savings, modern lightweight wheels and good rubber. A 3000 lb Charger with better weight distribution and modern reliability would be the perfect driver.

I do enjoy the feel of the classic cars, the noises they make, and the tone of a big block exhaust, but in the end, I think id consider myself a driving enthausiast over all, and anything that makes my vehicle a much better driver's car im all for.

I was leanin heavily to the 5.7 by default, but, again, I don't see how a modern Hemi is any more connected to the classics than any other engine, so why limit the choices.

[JR]

And btw, that blue 68 in your avatar is awesome ms racing.

[Troy]

Maybe I'm missing something. What "frequent maintenance" are you talking about? A EFI setup will take care of frequent carb tuning (and fouled plugs). Other than that, I've found 440s to be fairly trouble-free - with the exception of rear main and valve cover leaks. Any half-decent 440 rebuild can put you over 500 hp without even going to aluminum heads. Not to mention the torque!!! Nothing new will match that without spending even more money. Aluminum heads will help drop some weight and allow an increase in compression as well.

Even with a new Hemi you won't have a 3,000 pound 70 Charger - maybe if you gutted the interior and used an aluminum block! Even at a typical 3,800 pounds the 70 Charger is still 600 pounds lighter than a new SRT-8 (one of the road tests listed the car at 4,400 pounds). You can't match performance of a modern sports car while fighting physics but you can easily match modern sedans.

The fuel mileage of the modern engines in a big, heavy car (see truck) will still not be very good. The 440 will probably be worse but they *can* be made much better (trade-offs again). Modern cars all have lockup converters, overdrive, and computer controlled transmissions to help in this area. You can do something similar - without the computer - on the old equipment. No matter, your drive train should be "matched" to get the most benefit.

Even with the new parts on your car, it could still be a lot stiffer with better ride characteristics. I personally think a Charger rides pretty well - especially compared to my Challenger and Mach 1. Compared to a modern vehicle (even my Tahoe) it's still lacking. Factory brakes are nothing compared to the new cars.

I think a stroked small block or 383/400 would be more than enough to make you see you car differently. There are plenty of great driving/handling Mopars and the owners are generally more than happy to explain what they've done (and why!). If you've got an unlimited budget and lots of free time then do whatever you think will make you happy. I personally would rather be driving a car that isn't "perfect" than trying to build one in the garage. Having said that, I will have at least one "stock" car and one modernized "driver". The other cars will be somewhere in between and upgraded as I see fit. That's the advantage of having multiple cars.

Troy

[JR]

Good points Troy.

The maintenance im tired of is normal 40 year old engine stuff. Fragile components, blown gaskets at random intervals, random old component failure etc.

Plus the cast iron 440 weighs 700 lbs. Any modern aluminum v8 weighs 450ish. That is 300 lbs of weight off the most important end of the car. That should make for longer life of front end components, better handling, braking, etc.

Basically, I just want the car to go when I tell it to, start at the flick of a key in any temperature, and not have it buck and stutter if the slightest thing is off. Which seems to be frequently.

Im happy with the ride quality and most characteristics of the chassis, but 300lbs off the nose would be a nice additon.

[Troy]

I don't seem to have those problems. All my 440s are pretty much bone stock (some have headers or after market carbs). It sounds like you may need some tuning. There are days when I hate my cars and it's usually do to something simple that I overlooked.

A 440 should be around 670. A 5.9 Magnum is 140 or so pounds lighter. I have aluminum heads and intake on mine which shaved another 25-30 pounds. Headers dropped another 10-15 I'd guess. You can get the same (or better) weight savings on a 440 with after market parts. I can tell you flat out that a complete 5.7 Hemi isn't "light" since I had one for the same reason you're looking. It was much more terrifying on the lift than any of my 440s - but it also had the wiring, intake, A/C, and exhaust still attached. Don't forget all the "extras" like wiring, PCMs, fuel pumps, etc. when calculating your weights. Moving the battery to the trunk won't save weight but will improve the overall balance. Again, that works with any engine though. Switching to an Alter-K-tion front end would save plenty of weight too without the engine swap. The F.A.S.T. racers have all sorts of tricks to saving weight and they still run Hemis.

Electronic ignition and EFI are just about required for a "trouble-free" driver in my opinion. I plan on running them on at least one car (along with overdrive, modern brakes, suspension, and wheels/tires). I rarely open the hood for people to gawk and no one will know once I'm on on the road. I hate stopping for gas every 100 miles and, since I don't drag race, I can live with "highway gears" out back. Amazingly, this approach is still cheaper than a factory type restoration.

Since I have something like a budget I won't even consider any sort of exotic engine swap. Not unless there's a far superior advantage. Saving 100-200 pounds isn't worth many thousands of dollars, lots of fabrication, and lots of time - especially if overall torque goes down! If I want Go Kart handling and acceleration I'll buy an RX-7, 350Z, or maybe a WRX. Something that isn't trying to bend the laws of physics.

Troy

[HPP]

 Hmmm, weird combination of things. You'll consider a foreign mill, but are willing to bypass a chevy. If cheap, light, and powerful are the only requirements, its hard to beat the chevy LS family. There are millions of them out there, thay make 500 hp with a solid rebuild and are light. I agree that modern engines do take power per cube to new levels of cool, however, there is still alot of potential in old wedge headed engines. However, if your replacing head gaskets semi regularly in a 9:1 motor, you have some other problems, I'd think.

You mention weight in several instances, so that seem to be a hot point with you. Have you considered that most modern mid sized cars are pushing the scales at over 4000#, and the bigger cars that are the closest in comparison to your Charger in size are even heavier than that. You also bring up handling. So are you proposing an entire overhaul, or just an engine makeover?  Is this an exercise in "can I do it" or is there some sort of budgetary return on investment requirement. I mean we can propose a tricked out, 1G handling muscle car that gets 20+mpg but the payback may take you 20-30 years if it is driven like most classics I see.

Here is some food for though, slightly different than your car, but still relevant; my 73 D200 crew cab was pretty typical of its era, large, hulking, and monsterous. I've been rebuilding every aspect of it over the last ten years to the point that everything is done except the body work and paint. Under the skin it is all new or rebuilt. Unlike its origins, it has air, cruise, power accessories, dual tanks, you name. It is almost comparable to a newer truck. It is running an iron headed 440 with a carb and 3 speed auto, yet it knocks down 18 mpg without a load, 15 pulling a load, starts up without issue ( I will admit that installing an electric fuel pump allows this). It is not quite as easy to drive nor handles quite as well as a new truck, but it is substanially better than original and is easy enough that my wife will not object to driving it. I've also doeen it all for a third of the cost of a new truck, but I'm a cheap SOB and willing to wait to find a deal.

I'd recomend perhaps getting another mopar engine, make it a 383 or 400 to keep cost of conversion down, build it to produce maximum torque at the lowest possible rpm with the highest compression ratio possible. Match you gears and tire height to that rpm point for cruising. Maybe use a bolt on, self learning efi to keep you out from under the hood. Put a Hotchkis suspension system under and bang, you mpg goes up, fun quotient goes up, overall performance goes up, and you do it all for under $10k. Is it totally modern, no, but it is a big improvement and dopesn't cost a fortune.

[rp23g7]

I was mulling over the idea of modern stuff too, maybe the Fuel Injection that Edlebrock makes, i had a chance to get the whole running gear and wiring harness out of a 2008 300C, or the whole new suspension set up from Reilly Motorsports, but got to thinking, you cant fix new technology on the side of the road if it breaks.

I trust my Coronet or the 41 Chrysler more than the 99 Explorer on a long road trip.  I can go into just about any parts store and get a set of points, cap and rotor for the 440, but try getting a coil pack or a new ball joint at a parts store in BFE.

If something goes wrong in the 41 Chrysler, almost any parts store around has a part for a (gasp, small block chevy) dirt cheap too.  Just my opinion

[Cooter]

I don't seem to have those problems. All my 440s are pretty much bone stock (some have headers or after market carbs). It sounds like you may need some tuning. There are days when I hate my cars and it's usually do to something simple that I overlooked.


Since I have something like a budget I won't even consider any sort of exotic engine swap. Not unless there's a far superior advantage. Saving 100-200 pounds isn't worth many thousands of dollars, lots of fabrication, and lots of time - especially if overall torque goes down! If I want Go Kart handling and acceleration I'll buy an RX-7, 350Z, or maybe a WRX. Something that isn't trying to bend the laws of physics.

Troy

This is the quote of the thread right here. Bout sums it all up. If your tired of the "old" tech, then buy a newer BMW, or whatever, leave the old cars to someone that doesn't have to jump on the bandwagon and dump a newer Hemi in it. The 440 Mopar is a legend just like the 426 Hemi is, you take that out of a Charger and you have just another canyon carving car that looks like Paul Walker and Vin Diesel have been under the hood trying too hard for a "wow" factor award...
Too much money to get a newer engine in one of these cars.

[JR]

sorry about the delay guys, vie been tied up with work.

but it isn't about any wow factor, or proving what can be done. I simply want the best driving car I can build. I have friends who build and race pro mod dragsters, can wire anything, and I can fab up anything necessary.

Again, I would never do anything to ruin the car by making irreversible modifications, but I'm to the point now where any bolt on mods are fair game. we've been looking over engine and trans mounts. to start with, I see no reason why i can't fabricate some custom brackets using the lower half of big block mounts, and mating them to the upper half of whatever engine I choose. fabbing up a transmission cross member is easy as cake. As is a custom driveshaft. custom throttle and shift linkages have existing aftermarket solutions.

The fuel system is relatively simple, and using something such as a late model corvette fuel pump with an aftermarket regulator is easily sourced.

The fuel management and ECU can be done by a standalone fuel management, and the original ecu from the donor vehicle. the aftermarket has many solutions for the built in anti theft system.

There are plenty of engines with a matched trans that are as small as the 727, so no firewall mods need be done. nor would I want to. I still appreciate the history, collectability, and heritage of our cars.

But at the end of the day, I'm tired of having an awesome looking muscle car that is outperformed by grannies six cylinder Toyota Camry. I know that if I were to hop in a time machine and pick up my car from the dealer, it would be lucky to run quicker than a 14.9 et with barely an under 7 sec 0-60. Yet somehow still returning 12 mpg.

I can buy a complete late model engine and trans, use as many OE componets as possible, and keep custom fabled parts to a minimum. That way, replacing parts is no big deal. But a key factor is, the late model stuff doesn't break nearly as often. Any of us here would jump in a 15 year old vehicle with 150k miles and go anywhere withoutna second thought. I want that same reliability and fuel efficiency.

And again, I was set on the 5.7 hem,  but then I got to thinking. That engine was engineered by a German owned company, built in Canada, and is now sold by an Italian owned company. No point in sticking with one engine on name alone just to keep it "pure".

[JR]

oh I forgot to mention the weight issue. I realize 3k lbs is an impossible target, BUT, better weight distribution, less weight off the nose, and less weight off the nose is desirable.

I've driven lots of new 5.7 Chargers and 300s, and the 4k lbs they weigh is very apparent. I'm a driving enthusiast, and Ive owned plenty of sports cars, and have an older BMW to drive when I want to autocross or find a curvy road to play on.

but this has also spoiled me into realizing that every pound you add to a car, ruins the experience that much more. More weight means slower acceleration, dilluted steering response, slow, clumsy weight transitions, etc.

I realize that 40 year old suspension will never match modern setups, but, there's no reason I can't optimize the existing chassis. Mr. Angrys 68 is a perfect example.

And I don't see where costs are out of line. a built 440 and 727 combo can easily top 3k. rebuilding mine into the best setup possible, would probably cost over 1500 easily. I can buy a pull out motor and trans for that do the fabbing and wiring myself, etc. Sure the accessories, will add up to more, but oh well.

[Troy]

But you missed the rest of what I said. I build my cars for what suits me -  not to outperform anyone else. I happen to like adding modern features to my cars (especially when they aren't obvious). I won't be trying to replace one of my newer cars with an old one though.

Troy

[JR]

Indeed I understand building your car to suit your own style Troy.

I'd like to think I'm doing the same.

At the end of the day, my number one concern isn't to have the fastest car. My posts may make it seem that way.

I'm after the most efficient car, and the best driving one. I've also got a 68 I've always planned to do an original rest on. That way I can have it both ways.

[Troy]

Ack! You posted twice while I typed that. My last response was for Cooter. The one time I don't quote someone...

Troy

[JR]

Oh I see now Troy. it's all good man!

[bordin34]

I would do some JDM motor swap if I could. Most people would hate it but it will definitely have a nice wow factor and be reliable. A 1JZ or 2JZ swap with a turbo will probably be the easiest and most reliable, same motor that is in the Supra. I was driving on the highway a couple weeks ago at 65mph and revved up next to an MKIV, mid 90s Supra, with dot slicks. Well he brake boosted and got the thing sideways, at 65mph. I was amazed. The RB series Nissan will also work great and have a nice amount of torque but being we are in america RB engine are rather hard and expensive to come by. In an A-body, an SR20DET swap would work great but the weight of a b-body is just too much. If I can get an SR20 cheap enough I plan on putting one in my Valiant eventually.

[JR]

I know whatcha mean man. I used to have an RB20 I was going to swap into an S13 hatch, but life got in the way and I had to sell the project. I did get to ride in the R32 Skyline GTS the engine came from. It was awesome. The power delivery was silky smooth, borderline european in nature.

I am leaning to a naturally aspirated engine for the simplicity however. Id prefer not to have to fab intrcooler piping, as much as I do like those engines.

The 3.5 VQ engine from.the 03 up Z and G35 is also tempting, but that engine seems to be very wide. Im still trying to find exact measurements on them. That is an awesome engine.

[bordin34]

I drove my friend's S13 with an SR20 in it and was hooked since it made so much power for a 2 liter, I want a 240 or something with an SR20. I really like the VQ35DE also. The one in my old Pathfinder was great. I remember them being about the size of a 318.

[HPP]

I'm still lost on what exactly you want to accomplish.

If your 440 Charger is getting smoked by Grandmas in Camrys, you have bigger issues than modern drivetrains.

If your Charger is breaking regularly, you have other issues than simply age.

Personally, I have no issue with jumping in my 40 year old truck and driving across country, and I have done it many times and it performs as well doing so as my 5 year old truck, and my old truck still runs a carb and three speed trans. If you do not have the same confidence in our Charger, then there are fairly simple things you can do to improve it.

A few points from your posts that can be addressed without an entire cross make, bastardized, drivetrain swap;
-bolt on self learning efi can remove you from didling with carburation
-aftermarket high enegry ignition systems can help you with the fouled plug issue
-updated cylinder heads can help with engine efficiency issues
-aftermarket suspension components can help with handling issues

Sorry, but the weight is what it is. Short of installing extensive amounts of lightweight components, which bring with them their own host of issues, you can't get away from that. Check on late model cars and you'll find their weight distribution isn't exactly stellar either, particularly front wheel drive ones.

So are there specific issues that need to be addressed, then bring them up. Are ther ebudgets to work within?Personally,  I would think that updating a brand specific engine would be a whole lot easier than trying to mount something else in its place. But again, is this really about making your existing package the best it can be or is this more of an exercise in can I do a cross bred swap and get away with it and how much will it piss of the mopar guys? I think you've gotten too wrapped up in the old is crap, new is where it is at mind set. There are many points that can be used to support or displace this mind set that we don't need to get in to here, but I think if you are truly serious about improving you Charger, it is going to require you get deeper in to it than simply bolting on some parts and making sweeping stements about how your 440 sucks.

[JR]

Im not doing anything to piss off the Mopar guys. Its my car, I've owned it for ten years, im just tired of the old combo.

The goal is to have a responsive, fun to drive, well sorted do it all car that does what I tell it to. I like how modern cars respond as soon as you touch the pedal, work seamlessly, get decent mpg, and run a long time between needed repairs. Most new cars have a 100k mile tune up. That would be nice.

As for my existing combo. I have a MSD 6A box now, electronic ignition, and a well sorted six pack setup. The basics of the 440 work fine. Never blew a head gasket in ten years, never had an internal failure.

BUT, I am tired of having an engine that wont run well with modern fuels, has constant oil leaks, needs constant ttinkering, and is finickey. I can't remember the last time t would run through the whole rpm range without busting up, detonating, pinging, etc. I realize it is a mismatched combo, but for what it will cost me to put in a properly built engine I could buy a whole new replacement.

[Scaregrabber]

Your story has holes in it. You don't mind rewiring the whole car for a new engine but you can't optimize what's in there now. Anyway if it was mine and I wanted a modern, troublefree running engine that was lighter I would pull the 440, install decent pistons in it, have it balanced, install a hydraulic roller and Edelbrock heads, then I would bolt on an injection system and headers.
You'll have a great running piece with a lot of power, troublefree operation and it will be a lot less stressful to build as well as being much cheaper.
Nothing beats the look of a classic Mopar engine, those new Hemi's and such are just downright Fugly when you pop the hood.

Sheldon

[JR]

I agree it would be less stressful to build the 440, than swap a new one, BUT, what will it cost to build it?

Almost 1k for the edelbrock aluminum heads?

Atleast 500 for headers?

My engine has a forged 70 crank, but if I were to build it I'd want the 440, I'd go for the 440 source stroker kit.

I can't remember the cost of that, but isn't it around 1200ish?

So right there we have 2700ish for a strong stroker 440. Maybe 2k for just swapping pistons?

I can buy a pull out motor/trans/ecu combo for 1500, and still have money left for the accessories.

Again, the logic is, the newer engine will weigh less, return better mileage, be much cheaper to run and much lower maintainence, run on any crappy 87 octane crap fuel, and as a perk, be much harder to hot-wire and steal.

I agree the old engines look much better, but the new engines work better. I'm a form over function guy.

Although I have been talking with some guys who have done the hemi swap, and are getting 19-22 mpg while running 12 sec quarter miles. Not to mention saving serious weight off the nose of the car. Pretty impressive.

[HPP]

New engines tend to return more power because of efficiencys that have been designed in to them that were not widely known 40 years ago, or even 10 years ago for that matter.

So, for $1500 you can swap in a newer engine that make 300-350 horses and gets 15-20 mpg. Or you can rebuild your stock set up for a $3000 to get 450-500 horses and 15-20 mpg. I guess it all depends on what you want as an end result. If efficiency and mileage is the goal, I certainly wouldn't consider a stroker. If efficiency and power is the goal, then it might be worth it. Certianly budgetary considerations are worth making, but somehow I don't think you can swap in a new Hemi, complete, and get it to running condition for only $1500. I doubt you could even do that with some other engine family, foreign or domestic, as not only is there all the related wiring and controls, but also any custom fab pieces to interfaced the set up with your old car. maybe I'm wrong there, but if you have the talent to do that, then you should also have the talent to build the old mopar for less as well.

For the sake of comparison, lets consider this; compressiong a charge is not a whole lot different between the old and new design aside from the addition of quench. The addition of quench to the old engine simply requires the correct pistons or component tolerance stack up. Its a wash there. New engines may be using multiple or overhead cams (although the new Hemi and LS engines don't) so that is a big advatnage that you can't match with the old mopar. However, there are many new head designs that flow air more efficiently and increase swirl and tumble of the charge to get better burn. Combine that with a new cam profile with asymetrical lobes and a lightweight valve train, and you can come darn close in closing the efficiency gap. Now that you have the charge in the cylinder ready to fire, you need a better ignition system. MSD is an easy fall back, but there are better choices from an efficiency standpoint. Systems that provide longer spark duration, multiple sparks over 3000 rpm, or multiple coils to allow longer saturation and spark duration and can yield dividends over the old MSD design. Also, IMO, if your not racing, hitting the mill with a shot of nitrous, or using forced induction, I don't see much value in using forged this and billet that in a rebuild for a cruiser. That is an area where you can save substantially.

Did you know that torque peaks  in engine output coioncide with volumetric efficiency? This is why earlier I suggested you build an engine for maximum torque at the lowest possible rpm. The more torque you make in a reasonable and usable range of the powerband, the more effcient the operation of your engine. If that range is matched to your gearing, tires, and cruising rpm, then you get a vehicle that suddenly becomes very efficient. If my 440 is knocking down 16-18 mpg in a 5500# truck with 4:10 gears, imagine what it might do in a 3800# car. BTW, it also produces as much horsepower as most the other mild performance big block build ups in my area.