440 build suggestions needed

[firefighter3931]

I hate to butt in here but it may be relevent info, I have a 440 bored .060 over that I was planning on using some 88cc E heads I have on it. The pistons are the speed pro 2266 F model. This motor at one point was going to have a blower on it so the idea was to try and keep the compression down a hair. Well plans have changed and no more blower. Would it be a major mistake to run these heads without a quench style piston? Or should I pitch them and go with a set of redone 906 heads. The E heads are still in the box but its been almost 2 years since summit sold them to me so they are mine for sure. no hijack intended

Hi Ray, If you go with a 906 head you'll have the same problem because it is also an open chamber design. The 88cc heads are best utilized with a quench dome slug if you want to push the pump gas envelope. I'm not saying that you need quench to run 10.5:1 on pump gas and some people get away without it, some don't, but....building quench into the motor makes more power and eliminates the (predetonation) problem completely (10.5:1).

I wouldn't pitch those E-heads....just get a custom piston built around the existing combo. Diamond, Ross etc....can make something for this application. The custom slug won't cost a whole lot more than an off the shelf piston and there are other advantages as well. The biggest being that you can have larger valve reliefs strategicly placed to accomodate the E-head chamber design/valve location. This is helpful if you decide to run a high lift cam, which you will most likely want to do to take advantage of the increased intake/exhaust flow. You also get to dial in a specific static compression ratio built around your parts.  

I haven't measured the open side on an 88cc e-head...but i'm pretty sure it's ~.080 deep. It would be worthwhile measureing for sure, then ordering a custom piston to fit the head and yielding 10.5:1 static compression. Assuming the open chamber was .080 you'd want a piston with a .080 positive deck height on the quench side. The head gasket effectively creates your quench zone. The felpro 1009 is perfect for this application because it compresses down to .039-.040 when the heads are torqed to spec.

Ron

[steves66]

Hey Ron, I emailed 440 source about having a custom Ross dished piston with a 12cc dish. I told them I was having my block zero decked and told them the rest of my specs and here is the reply I got. Let me know what you think.

If you havent bought the heads yet, you can go with the 88cc edelrocks and get 10.6 to one with an off the shelf flattop, or you can run a thicker head gasket (.051) with the  84cc edelbrocks and still get about 10.6 to one, also with an off the shelf flattop. Even with the .039 gasket, the compression with a flattop will be 10.9, still ok with pump gas. A dish as big as 12CC would put your compression at about 9.8 by my calculations, way too low for aluminum heads. Check out our pistons page for details. Give us a call if you have questions. Thanks for your interest!

[firefighter3931]

Hi Steve, i've used the online calculator at Ross Racing to come up with the 12cc dish spec. If 440 source hasn't taken into consideration the deckheight spec (zero deck) then i can see those comp ratio #'s being accurate (the one he quoted). The Ross slugs all sit .017 below deck, assuming the factory spec block. If you go to the online calculator and plug in the dimensions you'll see that it comes out as i said. The standard off the shelf Ross flattop stroker piston has a 4cc valve relief which isn't enough inmo. The static comp ratio is too high when the slugs are brought up to zero deck.  

You don't want an open chamber head....there will be no quench with a flattop piston. See Ray's post above for how to fix that problem....but avoid it completely by buying the closed chamber heads in the first place, with the correct piston.  

I believe 440 source carries Ross pistons but i know Diamond makes an off the shelf flattop slug with a 12cc dish that is perfect for this application. Presumably Ross can make something custom to the same specs. The 440 source website shows a 32cc dished (Ross) stroker piston but that will crate a low 8.8:1 comp ratio with an 84cc chamber....not what you want. If you order from them the piston will have to be custom made through Ross....unless they can substitute the Diamond piston in it's place. Both brands are a good option and i wouldn't be concerned with using either.

http://www.rosspistons.com/calculator.php

Bore: 4.35 (.030 over 440)
stroke: 4.15
Head cc: 84
Gasket thickness: .040 (felpro 1009 head gasket)
Deckheight : .0001 (zero deck)
Dish volume: -12cc
Cylinders: 8

Plug the #'s into the calculator and see what you come up with. This is where your machinist must do his homework. He will need to mock up the shortblock and get a piston to deck measurement.....then cut and square the decks to achieve the "Zero Deck" benchmark. Once that is done you'll be good to go with the 84cc closed chamber heads and the felpro composite head gasket.  

Ron

[steves66]

Ron, I come up with 10.5:1, just like you said.
I hope they just missed the zero deck part in my email and doing their calculations on the standard deck height and not trying to sell me somthing else because they can't get the 12cc dish piston. I am going to call them and find out what the deal is.
I got my cam in the mail Friday. For some reason the add a 4* advance. The spec says LSA @112+4. I called them today and asked them about it and told them I didn't ask for the 4* advance. They told me that it would help with the timing and don't affect the cam whatsoever and that 99% of the people with custom grind cams want the extra advance!

[firefighter3931]

Ron, I come up with 10.5:1, just like you said.
I hope they just missed the zero deck part in my email and doing their calculations on the standard deck height and not trying to sell me somthing else because they can't get the 12cc dish piston. I am going to call them and find out what the deal is.
I got my cam in the mail Friday. For some reason the add a 4* advance. The spec says LSA @112+4. I called them today and asked them about it and told them I didn't ask for the 4* advance. They told me that it would help with the timing and don't affect the cam whatsoever and that 99% of the people with custom grind cams want the extra advance!

Steve, the cam is fine....they all come that way. Just degree it in on a 108* intake centerline.....no problemo. One of the reasons this is done is to compensate for timing chain stretch....which eventually will retard it ever so slightly...so building a few degrees advance into the cam isn't necessarily a bad thing.

As for the pistons, you definately want the 12cc dish. That way you can bring the slug up to zero deck and still dial in the 10.5:1 compression ratio with perfect quench. If you zero decked the ross flattops the static compression ratio rises to well over 11:1. If you leave them in the hole you lose the quench factor. Having done the math yourself you see that 12cc is the magic number for the 84cc closed chamber e-head. Don't settle for anything else.   Try plugging in a 4cc valve relief with the rest of your specs and see what you come up with....too much comp with the ross flattops.

Ron

[kamkuda]

Sounds like an killer build.  It will scare you the first couple times out. 

This Firefighter fellow seems to know his stuff 

[steves66]

Ron, you are exactly right. The 12cc dish will be the perfect slug for this build. If I can ever get in touch with someone at 440 source on the phone I will tell them that I need the 12cc dish slug and explain to them about the zero deck. I really do think that they are calculating with the standard deck height and not the zero deck, because if you do the calculations with the standard deck height and 88cc heads you come up with what they are calculating. Oh well I will get it straightened out. Thanks again Ron!
I have another question for you. I have always ran Holley carburators because I understand them and can adjust/tune them with ease. I had one Edelbrock carb and didn't have any luck with it at all, so I went back to Holley. Is there a brand of carb that in your opinion is better that a Holley? Also, I was reading the Harland Sharp book and I noticed it said that the pushrod length should be determined after installation. Does the rocker arm geometry change on the HS with the stock length pushrods?

[kamkuda]

I will echo comments before Firefighter makes them. (I know, kinda an odd statement, but having been down this road a couple times with Ron... )

From a carb standpoint, Holley is your best bet.   I have both a demon and edelbrock on my small block stroker.   The Demon is difficult to get a constant A/F ratio.   Sometimes you are lean, sometime fat.   It is a Pain  

The Eddy just isn't a performance carb.   It will work but you may be leaving some HP on the table.

The holley has infinate tuning abilities.   Get one with 4 corner idle.

Additionally, Proform has a main body that affectively acheives more cfm from the modified carb.

[steves66]

That was my impression on the edelbrock carb, its just lacking a little in the performance department. I've never had a Holley with the idle on the 4 corners. I almost got my list together and the carb I am still unsure of. More than likely it will be a Holley, but there are so many choices that Holley has, it makes it hard to decide.

[firefighter3931]

Kamkuda (Rob) knows how i feel about Demon carbs. We screwed around with his Speed Demon and it fouled his plugs and contaminated his oil. At one point the plugs were so fouled the engine wouldn't even fire. I've had similar experiences trying to tune other Demon carbs as well....you couldn't give me one of those pieces of junk !  

Steve, the carb you want is the 850 dp (list#4781) for this application. This is a downleg booster carb with 4 corner idle. The fuel curve on holley DP'ers is almost allways bang on. Set the floats, adjust the mixture and idle speed and off you go. There might be some minor jetting adjustmants required, but that should be it. The HP series have adjustable air bleeds but for a combo this mild i don't see that as being a necessity.

The HS roller rockers in mine are using a stock length Crane pushrod, fwiw. Pushrod length can vary depending on how much the block was decked. Your machinist can verify the correct length required when he mocks up the heads and valvetrain with a "checking pushrod". This is a threaded pushrod that is adjustable in length. The idea is to have the lash set with 1-2 (adjuster) threads showing on the bottom of the rocker arm to maintain proper geometry and pushrod cup oiling. Your machinist should be familiar with this procedure....ask him about it.

Ron

[steves66]

Ron, thanks for the carb recommendation! Can you still get the #4781 carb new?   I will talk to my machinist about the pushrods and see what he says.
With this new cam you speced out, should I run manual brakes?
I finally got a hold of 440 source yesterday and talked to them about the pistons for this build. He said that it would be no problem after I explained to him that I was having the block decked to zero and using the 84cc heads with the .039 Fel pro gasket. There was an extra charge for having the slugs custom made with the 12cc dish. He said it would probably take 3-6 weeks to get those pistons made.
One more thing, if you get a nasty gram from a woman named Farrah, just go along with it. Its just my wife. I thought I would let you know that I blamed this build and spending this money on you! J/K!

[firefighter3931]

Hi Steve, have Farrah give me a call....i'll smooth things over for ya !  

The 4781 is a current Holley Part #...check it out at Summit or Jegs. If you have manual brakes go ahead and run them. After the motor is broken in and tuned we can see how much vacuum it's making and decide on a brake booster. That cam should make 12*-15* once the combo is all dialed in.

Nice to see 440source coming around...i'm presuming they would rather sell their off the shelf stuff than have to place a custom piston order with Ross. Tell them you want a slug with a 1.865 compression height and 12cc dish so that there's no confusion. On custom piston orders it's not a bad idea to order a couple extra slugs just in case something happens. That way if a piston gets damaged somehow you've got a spare or two. Accidents will and have happened during the assembly process so it's better to be safe than sorry. On a related note: a friend was assembling his engine with custom slugs and managed to drop one with the rod attached and mashed up the ringland pretty bad rendering the slug useless....waiting for a replacement held up the build 8 weeks.   The other scenerio is the possibility that one of the slugs is not to spec...ie: too large/too small...and this could hold up the build.

Ron

[steves66]

My machinist supposed to call me today or tomorrow and let me know that the block cleaned up at .030 so I can go ahead and order the parts. I already have some stuff from Mancini on the way. I'm trying to be patient but its hard. When you start getting in a hurry that's when things start going wrong, like dropping pistons!
The 4781 carb should be a good match with the Holley Street Dominator! I will try again with Summit. I didn't see it on their site yesterday.
Just checked with Summit, they have the Stage1, 2, and 3, ranging from $700 to $860! The Stage 3 is the only one with 4 corner idle. It has everything that the 1 and 2 have and more, and it is $860.

[firefighter3931]

Hey Steve, those carbs you were looking at are the "Quickfuel" race series carbs. You won't be needing one of those for your setup.   Try punching up these part #'s on the summit website:

(1) hly-0-4781c ($465.88)
(2) hly-0-4781s ($539.95)

These are the standard holley 850 dper's and do have the 4 corner idle adjustment....in fact all holley double pumpers now have 4 corner idle and have had this feature for the past couple of years.   The first one is the original style dichromate finish and the second one is the shiny chrome finish. Both carbs are identical other than physical appearance, so if you want a shiny carb you're paying an extra $75.00 for it.  

Personally, it doesn't really matter to me....as long as the carb performs well.    

Obviously, the choice will be yours to make.  

Ron

[steves66]

I seen those after looking more at Summit. That price sounds better. A shiney carb don't mean nothing to me either. After the drop top air breather goes on you can't see it anyway.

[firefighter3931]

I seen those after looking more at Summit. That price sounds better. A shiney carb don't mean nothing to me either. After the drop top air breather goes on you can't see it anyway.

That $75.00 will buy you a nice Carter high volume mechanical fuel pump.....you WILL be needing one of those along with a new fuel pump pushrod. Mp carries the hardened chrome moly (fuel pump) pushrods, fyi . You want the Carter "street" pump....6psi and 120 gpm which is plenty for this combo. Upgrading the fuel lines to 3/8in is also recommended along with a 3/8in pickup for the gas tank.  

Ron

[steves66]

I replaced my gas tank and sending unit with the 3/8 pickup tube. My fuel lines are 3/8 also. I haven't bought a fuel pump yet. I have another list for Mancini I am making, looks like I have a few more items to add!
I am also looking into an new ignition system. I am not sure if I am going to just convert my distributor to electronic or buy a whole new system. What do you recommend? I know MSD makes some nice stuff.

[MoparYoungGun]

I know people using the whole MSD system and they have had nothing but good things to say about it. It's definitely a little pricey but is what I plan on running.

[firefighter3931]

I know people using the whole MSD system and they have had nothing but good things to say about it. It's definitely a little pricey but is what I plan on running.

The MSD stuff is nice. Don't waste time on an old distributor.   The msd billet unit with a 6AL box is all you'll ever need. Adjusting the base and total timing is so much easier than with an oem style distributor....no slots to weld up (huge bonus) ! Rock solid ignition timing and excellent spark control !

Ron

[steves66]

Man, you guys are killing me! I have no self control and all of these goodies are just calling my name. None of them are cheap either. It will be well worth it in the end. I think this build will be one mean pavement pounder.

[Steve P.]

OK guys.. Your last post was way back on August 29th... WHAT'S GOING ON??

The suspense is killing me. I want to know where we are on the build???

How did the block turn out???

How much had to come off the deck for ZERO deck???

How much do you have in it so far and for what parts???

How much in machining???

Are you happy with your machine shop???

Anything you would do different??? (Besides letting your wife know how much $$$$$)!!

When does it go on the dyno???


I gotta tell you, after reading all of this I am glad the house is in BOTH my wife and my names.. I'm ready to build this my damn self!!

[steves66]

Well Steve I had to wait on the custom pistons for 5 weeks. They finally came in last week and I took them to the machine shop so he could finish up on my block. I will post more on here when I start to put her back together and I will also get a parts list together with prices when I get them all. I posted another topic last week with some pics on the stroker kit I got. I still have a bunch of parts on the way.

[Steve P.]

Damn, Steve,,, I'm all giddy just thinking about it..  

Maybe I could sell the house and rent a trailer with a big shop....     No, the wife would have me in a straight jacket...   I'll have to settle on hearing all about it..

Keep us updated...  

Hey make sure you have the machinist write EVERYTHING down.. I'm dieing to see what the piston to valve clearance is...     ( I have 1.6's on my mind ).........     

[firefighter3931]

Damn, Steve,,, I'm all giddy just thinking about it.. ?

Maybe I could sell the house and rent a trailer with a big shop.... ?  ?No, the wife would have me in a straight jacket... ? I'll have to settle on hearing all about it..

Keep us updated... ?

Hey make sure you have the machinist write EVERYTHING down.. I'm dyeing to see what the piston to valve clearance is... ?  ?( I have 1.6's on my mind )......... ?  ?

SteveP,

Piston to valve clearance will not be an issue. The dished slugs have a very generous relief area.....you could probably go to .700 and still have loads of room....see pics in link below. ? ? Most 1.6 rollers are more like 1.65 so they can be a little too agressive for a pure street combo, inmo. The HS 1.5's are 1.53:1 so they'll get the job done and keep the valvetrain happy for a long time. Faster opening-closing rates creates a pounding on the seats and valves. Trying to avoid that with this build for the sake of longevity. ?

Ron


Ps. here's the link with Steve's new parts ?

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,4195.0.html

[R2]

Excellent post...
Ron knows his stuff,,,,and is very good at making recomendations on getting a motor together. 
I run a 496 in my charger, solid cam 597 lift, 263 duration, 1.5 rockers, M1 intake, Holley 850, PTC 9.5 convertor 3800 stall, Dana 410, E heads, 10.5:1, PUMP gas....runs 11.60's with NO problem,,,@ 119MPH,,,,and should have a better ET with a "better" driver ... lol
its always driven on the street,,,,has good manners,,,,
I pulled my power booster off the brakes,,,and changed it over to manual brakes,,,
Doug


Old time slip,,,,first run off the trailer,,,,with a bad reaction time,,,and bad 60' time,,,,but very decent MPH,,,,should go low 11's