What constitutes VIN Swapping?

[Drache]

Im currently in a debate with someone who's planning on restoring his car. Now he's owned the car since it was new off the lot 40 year ago. Sadly though the car was sitting out in the open for way too long. Now he wants to simply take the good parts out of his car and put them into/onto a rust free rolling shell. One of these parts just happens to be the dash (see where Im going with this?). Now Im pretty sure he cannot just take his dash with the VIN tag attached and stick it into this new car. Am I correct on this?

The engine and the tranny both have different numbers than the VIN on the dash anyways since they were replaced many years before the car was left to the elements. So the car could never be stated as numbers matching anyways.

[tricky lugnuts]

Sounds like a VIN swap to me.

I don't know that he "can't" do that - I'm not familiar enough with the laws on that.

I'm sure he can, in fact, and possibly get away with it and register the car, even if the law says no.

Selling the car as something it's not, however, seems much more immoral to me.

[Troy]

Technically - he's not "restoring his car". If he just swaps the dash (which is not very hard) the numbers stamped into the body won't match either. Anyone looking to buy the car would know immediately if they bothered to check. Why not just fix the parts car and drive it without the dash swap? If the car is bad enough to junk I can't imagine that the dash is in great shape. The ONLY reason to do this is to make the car appear to be something it is not.

Oh, as for legality - probably not. Every state here in the US has slightly different rules and I'm sure it's not much different where you are.

Troy

[Drache]

Technically - he's not "restoring his car". If he just swaps the dash (which is not very hard) the numbers stamped into the body won't match either. Anyone looking to buy the car would know immediately if they bothered to check. Why not just fix the parts car and drive it without the dash swap? If the car is bad enough to junk I can't imagine that the dash is in great shape. The ONLY reason to do this is to make the car appear to be something it is not.

Oh, as for legality - probably not. Every state here in the US has slightly different rules and I'm sure it's not much different where you are.

Troy

The interior is in Fantastic shape compared to the rest of the car, maybe it wasn't in the car while the car sat?

I think this all came down to laziness on his part of not wanting to drill out rivets on the dash from his old car and place the other VIN onto the dash and rerivet it.

The rolling shell's dash was handmade metal and looks ugly as all hell (was going to be a drag car).

Either way I had told him what he was planning might be illegal....

[FLG]

Does he have the vin to the new car? If so just move it over to his dash.

This is one of those things where, yeah its not bad if YOU don't plan on representing the car for something its not. But if its ever sold who's to say that next guy won't be as honest?

[Drache]

Does he have the vin to the new car? If so just move it over to his dash.

This is one of those things where, yeah its not bad if YOU don't plan on representing the car for something its not. But if its ever sold who's to say that next guy won't be as honest?

Yes he has the VIN for the new car. Like I said I think that was just laziness on his part.

The car can't really ever be represented as something it's not. The engine and tranny don't match each other nor do they match the VIN from his car. The engine isn't even the same size of engine his car originally had.

Oh well I've let him know, it's up to him now.

[paironines]

If he swaps the dash onto another body he will no longer be the original owner of that car cause its not the same car he bought.  The value of his new restored car will be worth less than an identical car that has had no numbers swapping.

[Back N Black]

How much of the old car would you have to transfer on the donor shell to qualify as a restoration. How about firewall and a couple of frame rails? Its ok to build a car out of 85% AMD sheet metal and call it a restoration, when really its a re-body. Also, people will find a solid 318 car and transfer 85% of the sheet metal onto their R/T. Its all smoke and mirrors, people do what makes them feel good or justify the re-body. So tell you friend cut the firewall and front frame rails of the old car and graft it on the new shell and he should be good to go. 

[ACUDANUT]

 Ask your State Trooper !!

[Drache]

Ask your State Trooper !!

I wouldn't even trust the Federal police to know the law here in Canada.

There are many documented cases of them lying about the law and confiscating firearms then having the owners fight in court to get their guns back all because an officer knew nothing about the laws concerning firearms.

If they don't know anything about firearm laws I wouldn't trust them with laws concerning something like rebody/VIN swapping 

[bull]

If he's too lazy to drill out a couple of rivets he's way too lazy to do any of the other work he's talking about doing. Sounds to me like this project is going to go nowhere.

[Ghoste]

It's as illegal in Canada as it is in the US.  Think about it, if it was okay to just swap vehicle identification numbers around between various cars, then why bother to have differing identification numbers in the first place?  Yes, there are other uses for a vin but cutting down on car theft and fraud is a pretty big one.
Even if the trans and engine do not match, the other numbers on the car itself will not either so he isn't going to be any further ahead as far as trying to fraudulently increase the donor cars value.  And lets be honest, that is the biggest reason for doing it.

[Drache]

I guess the next question would be, what constitutes a rebody? Like Back N Black stated, if he decided to instead restore the original car using the body panels off the rolling shell, what needs to be left of the original car to keep it "the original car"? As it stands the whole front clip is mostly rusted away as well most of the underneath.

[Ghoste]

And that is a really tough question to answer.  I'm not sure there is an answer.

[Drache]

And that is a really tough question to answer.  I'm not sure there is an answer.

Ok taking a Charger as an example, where are the VIN numbers stamped? I know about the engine, tranny, and the rad support? Where else?

It certainly does seem like a tough question to answer.

If I take a car that is rusted out and replace EVERYTHING except those pieces with the VIN number Im restoring but if I would take those pieces and put them into a rust free shell it's a rebody.

[Ghoste]

Trunk rail and there are a couple of other lesser known spots but the ones everyone knows of are the rad support and trunk rail.  But to muddy it further, that didn't start until the late 60's.  What if we are talking about a Max Wedge car?

[Brock Lee]

I think it is defined exactly as it sounds. Taking the VIN from one car and transferring (swapping it) to another. If you rebuild a car from parts, you are not swapping the VIN as only one vehicle enters and exits the process.

[Cooter]

Simple fix would be to not have any VIN number on the car and get a NEW VIN issued through the DMV as a "Reconstructed Vehicle"....This is where this happens when a vehicle has lost most of it's original parts to the point to where it's a totally different vehicle altogether..

[Ghoste]

Imagine what the investor crowd would think of that. 

[bakerhillpins]

The Chop Cut Rebuild thread in charger discussion has a good discussion about the same thing. I would say that it sounds like he is swapping the VIN. In my opinion if he was moving parts from the good car to the dead one in an attempt to "restore" it he is good. I think the law is more about intent than the details in this case. YMMV.

Trunk rail and there are a couple of other lesser known spots but the ones everyone knows of are the rad support and trunk rail.  But to muddy it further, that didn't start until the late 60's.  What if we are talking about a Max Wedge car?

Care to elaborate? That's an awfully tasty bit of information to just dangle out there. 

[Brock Lee]

Imagine what the investor crowd would think of that. 

That would affect a healthy number of members cars too. Most of these cars have had the lion share of the exterior sheetmetal, interiors, and structural parts mostly replaced with either other Chargers parts or reproduction parts. I can't tell you how many Charger guys are amazed when I tell them my doors, hood and trunk lid are stock. That is rare these days.

[bakerhillpins]

Trunk rail and there are a couple of other lesser known spots but the ones everyone knows of are the rad support and trunk rail.  But to muddy it further, that didn't start until the late 60's.  What if we are talking about a Max Wedge car?

Care to elaborate? That's an awfully tasty bit of information to just dangle out there. 

Any chance in anyone elaborating one the other places? I realize there is an argument saying that this makes it easier for fakes to be perpetrated but at the same time it also allows buyers to be more informed and avoid the problems in the first place.