re-bodies, re-stamps, and such.

[twilt]

a couple of months ago i was talking to the owner of a non mopar specific "generic"  resto facility. during the converstion i posed a question about what would be done to a "rare" numbers matching car needing a core support replaced. would the numbers from the damaged one be grafted into the replacement, would the
replacement be re-stamped, or would it be replaced with no "numbers fudging" The answer i got kind of surprised me. I was basically told that without question the core support would be re-stamped, "that all resto facilities have stamps and do it all the time"  later on i was thinking "where
does it stop?" If re-stamping the core was okay, would the same person feel that re-stamping the whole car to be okay?

It would seem to me that if this is considered "okay" or "standard procedure" that there is probably a lot more of this stuff that goes on than i would have thought. If one has clear paperwork for the "rare" car, can everything else can be replicated and or restamped?

outside of thorough documentation, how do the buyers of super rare cars really know what they are buying is legit  ?

[Ghoste]

It goes on at the resto places more than many think.  There is just too much money involved for it to not happen and as long as the guys paying the bills don't know or don't care it will continue.
As for knowing what they buy is legit, I don't think even the great Galen Govier can be 100% certain every time.  You just take your chances.
That's why I like my old wreck.  I get to drive it all the time and never worry about following it's value on some imaginary Dow-Jones old car stock ticker.

[Blown70]

Well I would say it HAPPENS a lot.  I was speaking to a person on the phone and we had started to speak about car.  He found a AAR Cuda an he states heck I just want to REBODY the thing all I need is the NUMBERS..........

[hemihead]

It's no wonder that so many rare cars still exist after 30 or 40 years.All you need to make big money is the right numbers , not even the car matters.

[Ghoste]

I know of one 70 Hemi Cuda that was purchased in an envelope.  I'm sure I'm not the only one who knows about cars like this.

[BigBlockSam]

you see rare cars on ebay and there's nothing left of the car but the seller says he has all the number parts. they sell for big bucks. you know somebodies gonna rebody a car. i collect guitars and there are alot of fakes out there.the rule i use is , if a fake can get past me, it's gonna get past 95% of most people. i guess the same goes for cars. although i'm not an expert on mopars. just fender guitars. Rene

[Chris G.]

I know of one 70 Hemi Cuda that was purchased in an envelope.   I'm sure I'm not the only one who knows about cars like this.

You're not the only one by far. Re-bodies happen all the time, and I believe it is illegal throughout the country and maybe elsewhere as well?

Last year in Carlisle, I was going through some parts and came across a '70 door with the VIN sticker still on it. I took a pic (anything for the registry) and the guy got a little defensive. He was asking why I needed a pic, blah blah blah. I forgot what I said, but he went on to tell me he had all the goodies (VIN, FenderTag, etc.) in storage and he would sell them. This is one small story in the evergrowing world of potential re-body cars.   

[Silver R/T]

that seems to be wrong I know

[65post]

I bought a complete but heavily rusted 70 FM3  duster 340 4 speed car a while back and got another rustfree body to fix it.At first I thought it would be much faster to REBODY the car but then I said to my self this wouldn`t be the same car.And if I sold it what would I tell the buyer? It`s been restored ! Then I was going to cut up the rustfree one and put all the metal on the rusty FM3 car.( frame rails - floor - cowl - 1/4s and so on.) Then it came to me.Maybe when a car DIES it should be laid to rest.

[BigBlackDodge]

Tampering with VIN's is illegal and considered fraud!


BBD

[Ghoste]

Absolutely, and it's a topic that comes up on old car forums frequently.  There are some who feel that it's okay if they are just doing it to "save" a car and all the numbers and equipment are transferred over.  There are some who feel that laws regarding vins and the "hidden" numbers on a car's body are strictly there to thwart thieves and chop shops.
Regardless of your feelings as to the ethics around it, the irrefutable fact is that it's illegal.  It's also an irrefutable fact that it is going on all over the place right now and isn't likely to go away and there are some of us on this board who have or are or advocate doing it.  There are also some of us on this board who probably and unknowingly own rebodied or restamped cars.

[bull]

Maybe I don't fully understand the topic but I don't really have a problem with rebody work as much as I do with engine stamps or VIN manipulation. I can see how the practice could be abused but if I had to replace the radiator core in my Charger due to, say, prior collision damage I really wouldn't have much problem phonying up a "correct" stamp on the sheetmetal or cutting the chunk out that has the correct number and welding it in place on the new one. I wouldn't do it to decieve anyone or make my car more than it is but it is a restoration so why should I be punished because a portion of the car that just happens to have a number reeds replaced? I guess we're very fortunate they didn't stamp body numbers on the lower quarter panels aren't we? I have a friend who restored a '70 'Cuda and restamped the engine to match, but he was sure to tell the buyer that he restamped the engine. But now it's up to that guy to be honest with the next guy about the engine stamp. My 383 Charger doesn't even have an engine stamp so can I prove mine is any more legit than his?

Here's my thing: if you know your car is legit, what does it really hurt to make the car whole again body wise? I personally would have a problem changing any number on a car without telling a potential buyer, but if you're not trying to jip someone what's the problem?

[ck1]

makes me glad I have a plain base model charger and I don't have to worry about all that horse $^%&#@*............I'm sure the unrestored survivors are about the only ones you could trust now hearing that...........but I won't be in the market for the over priced, "for me", cars like these anyway in my life time.....

[Blown70]

Well I like to drive them.... Personally I hate see a car go to waste.  However, not sure swapping numbers is correct to do.... She just was not BORN that way.

I would rather have a CLONE of most of the expensive cars as I am not a COLLECTOR.   Now Jay Leno may care when he spends $1million on a car.  I would rather have a HEMI close or better yet and AAR clone.

Tom

[71charger_fan]

It seems like semantics to me. You read about some of these "back from the dead" cars in the magazines. They've replaced quarters, fenders, doors, floors, trunk floors and it's a restoration. Splice what little was saved from the high value car into a base model and it's a rebody. Same end result. One is applauded, one is held up to scorn and ridicule. What, in the final analysis, is the difference?

[Ghoste]

So what happens if you have saved for years and years to buy your dream car and you check it thoroughly and even pay some "Guru" to look at it.  It seems legit so you pay a lot of money for the car.  More than you should, but you have always wanted one and sacrificed to get there and now it's yours.  One year later, you find out that you actually bought an entry level version of the car that was dragged out of the swamp and had the numbers all skillfully replaced.  An extreme example but imagine how you would feel for a moment nonetheless.

[dayclona]

As for knowing what they buy is legit, I don't think even the great Galen Govier can be 100% certain every time.   You just take your chances.

nothing new! it's been going on for decades, back when money was to be made off vettes, then shelbys, now mopars and their parts! restampings, clonings for deceit/ profitt, rebodies, etc, etc........even the "guru" so-called "documentation".......How bout that B5 , 71 cuda vert that Galen's still choking on!...missed that one!.....and a few others!.......I was "privy" to watch Galen "document" a cuda recently,......all I'll say is........FOOLS will be parted with their money!...........I'll stick to cloning cars!, at least that way I know their made cars!.............................Mike G./DAYCLONA Enterprises

[472 R/T SE]

Just curious...does our guru claim his '68 Hemi Coronet is all #'s?  The car has been back halved, from what I understand he doesn't like to talk about it.

[Ghoste]

Of course, Mike, you don't claim to make anything but clones and have actually taken the lead in producing valuable cars which never even existed to begin with.

[Old Moparz]

I always like this argument.  

There's one important clarification to the term "rebody"   that I'd like to try to make. Some people state that when you replace most of the car with parts from another car, say more than 50%, it becomes a rebody.   Others state when the VIN tags are removed from one car, & put on another car, like a rotbox Hemi & a mint 318 car, that's a rebody.   I feel the later is what most consider a rebody,   & the first is just massive amounts of body repair. Taking tags & I.D. from one car & placing it on another, no matter whether you own both cars legally or not, is illegal to do.

My guess, (not a longshot either) is that the laws were likely created because some people actually steal cars. It's also likely that the laws were intended for newer vehicles & not classics. Chop shops would get stolen cars & part them, or thieves would re-tag a stolen car with a car that wasn't stolen to make it a "legal" vehicle. Now that classics are being restored, there is a different problem. Some of these cars have had insane values put on them by people who can afford to do so. Whether that's right or wrong is irrelevant, but now a fraudulent high dollar car is more desirable to create by swapping tags to sell for the most profit.

I'll agree that there are some people who have absolutely no intention to swap tags with the intent to commit fraud. All they want to do is fix a rare car for themselves, but it doesn't matter, it's illegal. If your car needs another car, then so do you. It may not be the same, but if you have a dog that's 22 years old, it's deaf, it can't walk because it has two legs that are arthritic, one eye is blind, one eye sees shadows, it has a bad heart & won't eat, would you take it to the vet to have a kidney transplant? I kind of doubt it.

Having clarified my own definition, I'll say that there is no such thing as a rebody   at all. It's just a term created by someone who illegally swapped tags & didn't want it to sound   illegal.

[Ghoste]

OM, your last paragraph pretty much sums up the whole issue.

[jaak]

What if you rebody a 440 rt on another 440 rt? would that be ok??   Thats eccentially what I'm doing, let me explain this as quick as I can, I bought my first rt, was a complete car, floors, trunk, rear frame rails looked like a hlpag car (seriously) but it had some of the nicest used parts I have ever seen on a project, all glass, trim, interior parts, even the fenders, doors, and hood was in excellent shape, Just as I was about ready to order every piece of repro-sheet metal thats available and making the one's that aren't, I ran into a rock solid rolling shell. At first my intention was to cut everything off the roller (witch is an rt also, I have the fendertag somewhere) and weld on Car#1, I thought its stupid to do that my reasoning was I want to build the car I want anyway..... The motor/tranny don't match anyway. So you see I had to use the dash with VIN out of car#1, but I didn't change core numbers or anything, heck I'm not trying to crook anyone, thats why I 'm telling you about it, heck even when I'm long gone and some one buys this car they will see different numbers and know somethings up, I want be able to give an explanation then, lol, but no one should get burned on it. Another point I wanted to make, I live in Alabama, Ala. and Georgia are about the 2 worst states when it comes to old cars... before I even started this project I call the DMV and ask "hey I got a 69 Charger here with 2 VIN #'s, what do I need to do to register it?"   She simply told me to pick one of them   to buy a tag.   I just want a super cool driver/local show car, the color, options, ect. That I want on it.


But let me clarify I only used the VIN attached to dash, I did not change any other numbers. I did not get a VIN with car # 2

also btw... I have the tag off #2 in a box of junk some where in the shop, and tag 1 is rusted, I don't even plan on putting a fender tag back on it.

[Blakcharger440]

Old Moparz I think you got it right in your first full paragraph!
Taking the VIN and body tags from one car and literally putting them on another vehicle is fraudulent and illegal.
Now scavenging parts from the donor car and adding them to the car you are actually "restoring" is OK in my book as probably 99% of the mopars have had this done to them at some point.

And you really cant trust "survivor" cars either as some of them arent what they are presented to be either.

[twilt]

so what are others thoughts about restamping a replacement core support to match the rest of the car.( i also wonder if this is legal -i doubt it is)    Bull seems to think its okay and has made his case. i think that its wrong as it would be a false  indicator that the panel is original. while i almost bought Bulls case on restamping the core...... lets take it one step further...    if a hemi car gets wacked front and back and crushed like an accordion is it okay to replace the core support, back half it with a donor 318 car and restamp the front and rear?   anybody know where i could find vin plate, fender tags, and title for one of the few 72 440 6pk cars? j/k 

[twilt]

What if you rebody a 440 rt on another 440 rt? would that be ok??  Thats eccentially what I'm doing, let me explain this as quick as I can, I bought my first rt, was a complete car, floors, trunk, rear frame rails looked like a hlpag car (seriously) but it had some of the nicest used parts I have ever seen on a project, all glass, trim, interior parts, even the fenders, doors, and hood was in excellent shape, Just as I was about ready to order every piece of repro-sheet metal thats available and making the one's that aren't, I ran into a rock solid rolling shell. At first my intention was to cut everything off the roller (witch is an rt also, I have the fendertag somewhere) and weld on Car#1, I thought its stupid to do that my reasoning was I want to build the car I want anyway..... The motor/tranny don't match anyway. So you see I had to use the dash with VIN out of car#1, but I didn't change core numbers or anything, heck I'm not trying to crook anyone, thats why I 'm telling you about it, heck even when I'm long gone and some one buys this car they will see different numbers and know somethings up, I want be able to give an explanation then, lol, but no one should get burned on it. Another point I wanted to make, I live in Alabama, Ala. and Georgia are about the 2 worst states when it comes to old cars... before I even started this project I call the DMV and ask "hey I got a 69 Charger here with 2 VIN #'s, what do I need to do to register it?"  She simply told me to pick one of them  to buy a tag.  I just want a super cool driver/local show car, the color, options, ect. That I want on it.


But let me clarify I only used the VIN attached to dash, I did not change any other numbers. I did not get a VIN with car # 2

also btw... I have the tag off #2 in a box of junk some where in the shop, and tag 1 is rusted, I don't even plan on putting a fender tag back on it.

i can fully understand why you would do that. not too sure that it is legal though-probably not. . if i had done that, i`d probably not publicly admit to it regardless of intent. with the numbers mix, you  might have a hard time selling the car for a good price  if that ever  became necessary.