Chop Cut Rebuild is doing a 69 charger this season.......

[ccr-host]

So, if you graft what was left of the XP Hemi car to my charger, would i be driving the XP Hemi Charger?

If you want some of that rust on your car, that's up to you. Installing original parts from the XP (not that there were many left) would not also make your car the XP Hemi. Nor does installing new metal stamped in Taiwan make it the Chinese XP. There are key components that DOT considers to be non-transferable, without authorization from your local DMV.

[TUFCAT]

So, if you graft what was left of the XP Hemi car to my charger, would i be driving the XP Hemi Charger?

If you want some of that rust on your car, that's up to you. Installing original parts from the XP (not that there were many left) would not also make your car the XP Hemi. Nor does installing new metal stamped in Taiwan make it the Chinese XP. There are key components that DOT considers to be non-transferable, without authorization from your local DMV.

They saved a significant car that would have otherwise been unsalvagable - - and I have no problem with that. Would you rather look at the rusty remains of what "used to be" the XP hemi? Seriously. They did the mopar world a favor by bringing it back to life.

I'm positive if this was salvageable with patch panels only ...they would have done that.

Lot's of very high dollar cars have been restored with new quarters, doors, fenders, etc. So let's get away from this point already.

[TUFCAT]

Also, from what I've seen every non-stock (bolt-on) item could be undone if someone wanted the stock look - except for the enhanced color.

[tan top]

Also, from what I've seen every non-stock (bolt-on) item could be undone if someone wanted the stock look - except for the enhanced color.

true  TC   

[Charger-Bodie]

To me The bottom line is that they saved this car. They saved it in fornt of our eyes. To me thats cool!

If someone did all this stuff secretly and then unveiled it as the xp Hemi car, not forthcoming of the fact that there is a lot of new parts, then I would feel cheated.


This car lives on! One more Charger on planet Earth. Thats a score if you ask me!!  Go Team!!!

[djcarguy]

To me The bottom line is that they saved this car. They saved it in fornt of our eyes. To me thats cool!

If someone did all this stuff secretly and then unveiled it as the xp Hemi car, not forthcoming of the fact that there is a lot of new parts, then I would feel cheated.


This car lives on! One more Charger on planet Earth. Thats a score if you ask me!!  Go Team!!!

totally agree with you and read your daytona build,great to see these cars saved and maded back into great pieces of mopar history. great respect for your vison and ability ,and your dads in the saving and building  the daytona. from pics it looked like you may be able to save roof and quarters on the charger shell,but as i read on i saw why you popped roof skin off.with removal of all floor and rear frame did ya ever consider ,custom frame and wheel tubs to get more tire and traction???  to handle the power of the hemi and be more radical looking,just asking??? car looks great.so far have never seen or dealt with sever rust here in oregon as i see in eastern parts.   know storys of a few daytona's and sbird's ,that lived and or died out here in oregon.  was a daytona wing on a trail blazer roof here 30 years ago in bare metal and daytona missing the nose in a guys back yard 20 yrs ago.great wing car drive on

[Richard Cranium]

They saved a significant car that would have otherwise been unsalvagable - - and I have no problem with that. Would you rather look at the rusty remains of what "used to be" the XP hemi? Seriously. They did the mopar world a favor by bringing it back to life.

I'm positive if this was salvageable with patch panels only ...they would have done that.

Lot's of very high dollar cars have been restored with new quarters, doors, fenders, etc. So let's get away from this point already.

Let's face reality; this car was too far gone to seriously consider tackling a project of that magnatude on their own, mainly because the return for their "investment" just isn't there. If not for the tv show and all the "donations", this car would never have been rebuilt. This car simply is an advertising tool showcasing components from various aftermerket supplies (who donated their goods and services and will claim the deductions on their corporate taxes) as a way to emphasize their businesses. I'm sure that whatever funds the Keislers have into the car is (mostly, if not all) also a business write off to them. That's how the business tax laws work. I'm not being critical; rather I understand the game & am fine with that.  

Just for curiosity, has a final cost of the project ever been released? Being as all here are "in the hobby", it would be of interest to understand the costs of bringing a car back from the grave. I'll take a stab at saying that it's at least $200,000.00. How far off am I?  

[ccr-host]

They saved a significant car that would have otherwise been unsalvagable - - and I have no problem with that. Would you rather look at the rusty remains of what "used to be" the XP hemi? Seriously. They did the mopar world a favor by bringing it back to life.

I'm positive if this was salvageable with patch panels only ...they would have done that.

Lot's of very high dollar cars have been restored with new quarters, doors, fenders, etc. So let's get away from this point already.

Let's face reality; this car was too far gone to seriously consider tackling a project of that magnatude on their own, mainly because the return for their "investment" just isn't there. If not for the tv show and all the "donations", this car would never have been rebuilt. This car simply is an advertising tool showcasing components from various aftermerket supplies (who donated their goods and services and will claim the deductions on their corporate taxes) as a way to emphasize their businesses. I'm sure that whatever funds the Keislers have into the car is (mostly, if not all) also a business write off to them. That's how the business tax laws work. I'm not being critical; rather I understand the game & am fine with that.  

Just for curiosity, has a final cost of the project ever been released? Being as all here are "in the hobby", it would be of interest to understand the costs of bringing a car back from the grave. I'll take a stab at saying that it's at least $200,000.00. How far off am I?  

We've never tracked market value costs for any of our builds because the price is not something we would want to discuss in the content. The show is international and when it began 7 years ago in Canada, the dollars we would have discussed were not the dollars you would deal with in the US. Also, when you start to pin prices on things, it dates the content. We try to keep the show "Evergreen", because the way you restore a 69 Charger this year, is probably the same way you would restore it 5 or 10 years from now. Talking prices would shorten its broadcast shelf life. And while the motivation for sponsors is to showcase their products to the public, it is not the motivation of the production. Our motivation is to entertain and enlighten. I've turned down a number of companies over the years who want to sell the public snake oil or inappropriate products and they've offered us good money to do it. For example, you have not seen us use a very popular "protectant" cleaning product on any of our upholstry becasue the product contains silicone. That was a pretty decent sized check we walked away from.

All that said, I think you're a little high on your estimate. Just over six figures would be my guess. But, it all depends on who is doing the restoration. If you consider the labor for a straight body-off to most vehicles comes in around 1,000 to 1,200 hours, a hobbyist could remove a big chunk of that cost from the equation by doing some of it themselves. Most restoration facilities will negotiate an hourly rate of $65. So, you're looking at 65 to 80 grand in labor. It's when you start to modify or muscle things up that the price starts to jump. The Charger mods were very mild compared to some of the builds we've featured.

As for parts costs, I'll leave that up to you guys here. You're probably better than I am at determining those costs. But, if you are the purchaser, most manufactureres will give you volume discounsts too.

[Khyron]

i must say im impressed with the level head you've kept while dealing with some of these posts, lol

[Magnumcharger]

Dan, you are my hero. Period.
I'm very glad you're replying to every question posted here, and amazed at your level-headedness. Myself, I would have spun out of control a long time ago.

And the fact that you're a Canadian, well, that makes it even sweeter!

Now, if I could somehow get you to somehow include a Canadian Forces member with one of your builds, maybe one with four project cars (hint-hint)......!!!

[ccr-host]

Dan, you are my hero. Period.
I'm very glad you're replying to every question posted here, and amazed at your level-headedness. Myself, I would have spun out of control a long time ago.

And the fact that you're a Canadian, well, that makes it even sweeter!

Now, if I could somehow get you to somehow include a Canadian Forces member with one of your builds, maybe one with four project cars (hint-hint)......!!!

You're in the Canadian Armed Forces? Wow. THANK YOU for your service. Keeping the peace and kicking butt! The perfect combination for a military.
The posts here in no way annoy me. Yeah, some people have their opinions but, I have mine too and I've posted some flames back, I think. Usually, they're genuine questions and fair comments. Sometimes there is a little bit of misinformation, but I don't consider it to be inflamitory... Mind you I do kick my dog every night before bed, so I get a lot of my frustrations out on him... JUST KIDDING!

Now if I could improve my spelling...

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

Now if I could improve my spelling...

Dan, there's an app for that.... 

[TUFCAT]

i must say im impressed with the level head you've kept while dealing with some of these posts, lol

I totally agree. Dan has gone above and beyond answering our questions,  and has been a class act the whole way   

I'm impressed that he's such a regular car guy (like us) - and not just a TV host.  Plus, he actually hangs with us! WOW.    

Here's to 'ya Dan Woods!

[thedodgeboys]

i must say im impressed with the level head you've kept while dealing with some of these posts, lol

Here's to 'ya Dan Woods!

I agree you da man Dan! 

[ccr-host]

i must say im impressed with the level head you've kept while dealing with some of these posts, lol

Here's to 'ya Dan Woods!

I agree you da man Dan! 

OK, OK... Enough of this stuff...

[Khyron]

no bow, just had to give you cudos....

now on to more important things, when are you going to do a show on my DMCL Clone Charger? LMAO

[nvrbdn]

no new episode for christmas what the heck am i gona do? hang out with the wife? watch the kids and grand kids open presents? omg i had this all planed and as im scanning the channel, no new episode   i guess there is no santa after all

[doctor4766]

no new episode for christmas what the heck am i gona do? hang out with the wife? watch the kids and grand kids open presents? omg i had this all planed and as im scanning the channel, no new episode   i guess there is no santa after all

Oh yes there is!
Well done 

[djcarguy]

no new episode for christmas what the heck am i gona do? hang out with the wife? watch the kids and grand kids open presents? omg i had this all planed and as im scanning the channel, no new episode   i guess there is no santa after all

no santa after all,,,,  well hanging with the wife and kids,grand kids trashing your home and eating all the food and goodies???  or kicking back with half your stuff and 13 years of kid support and freedom,total freedom.....boring freedom,sometimes...   do ya know why divorce cost so much,because it is a female and government scam to keep us guys trapped under their mind control and hands in our pockets,,,, OR IS it is worth it,,..lol..hahaha,,,,or as i say to my xxxxxx   ho,ho,ho,,,,hoe---------MERY XMAS AND IT WILL ALL BE BETTER NEXT YEAR,BS,BS

[nvrbdn]

no new episode for christmas what the heck am i gona do? hang out with the wife? watch the kids and grand kids open presents? omg i had this all planed and as im scanning the channel, no new episode   i guess there is no santa after all

Oh yes there is!
Well done 

                     great to hear it doc

[TUFCAT]

Get a beer, grab a seat, and put your feet up because what going to tell you is the actual true story about the 'brochure car" from a guy who was there -  42 years ago.

My Dad retired after 35 years with Chrysler Engineering.  He witnessed the development of many (now historical) pre-production cars as they moved through Chrysler engineering at Highland Park. What I'm about to tell you is "the way it was back then".  I realize some background information is needed for credibility sake, so here it goes.

He started Chrysler engineering in 1965. Without a lot of hoopla I can tell you that his job took him to every corner of engineering. His office was 200 feet from the engineering paint shop which was in close proximity to the metal and trim shops. He had the run of engineering which included access to the "security room" where early prototypes were built....(in fact, I was there once as a kid- sshhh, don't tell anybody! ).

Although he didn't have access to the design studio he was invited on an "as needed" basis in the late '60's and early 70's. His last job was working for the concept and specialty vehicle group/design office when he retired from Chrysler in 2001. He now works at the Walter P. Chrysler Museum one day a week.

He lusted over this car for many months, and saw it often before the 1969 models were ever revealed to the public. Since he loved the car so much, he watched its progress during its many phases of 1968.

It was a 1968 Charger that was turned into a 1969 model by the engineering metal shop, trim shop, and paint shop in early 1968. The round side maker lights were changed to the rectangular ones, new grille, and the tail panel was replaced for the new taillights.  It was then repainted several times in building 132 at Highland Park with a peel coat paint job and was shown (and photographed) in many different trim styles .....from base car, to SE, to R/T.

The vinyl top color was also changed from white, to black, then tan, depending on the exterior color.  The vinyl color was easily changed by using a peal coat paint job also.  He's almost sure this was the car photographed as a red R/T with a black tape stripe.  

The engineering office referred to these cars as "program cars". Very few program cars were ever sold to the public for safety and liability reasons, especially ones that have been modified as much as this car was...i.e. a 1968 model dressed as a 1969.  He remembers the powertrain to be a 440/automatic. He also clearly remembers the woodgrain dash -  obviously done because it was shown as an SE.

Back in the late '60's, brochures were done 3 to 4 months in advance of any pre-production cars leaving the assembly line. Printing and photographic technology was nowhere near today's digital standard so engineering typically modified one car into several different color and trim variations for the photographic lab.  Sometimes, when late changes occurred the "next best thing" was to airbrush the photo. Many "retouched" photos were used for print media.  

Personally, my Dad remembers the first time he saw the "new for 1969" Charger. Right away, he decided he wanted to buy a 1969 Charger...and his favorite color was medium bronze just like the brochure car.  He settled for a T7 dark bronze Charger SE instead.

Nobody, especially my Dad, knows for sure if the actual "brochure car" was ever sold by Chrysler, or still exists today.
In regard to the Chop Cut Rebuild Charger...it's very unlikely to be the same car since the brochure car was a 1968 model with a 440.

I will leave it up to you to decide.  

My Dad is registered as: oldhemiman if you want to ask him a question on anything.

[ccr-host]

Tuffcat,

Thanks for the insight! That is terrific information. I'd like to know if they swapped engines in the car for photography. Ours did have a 440 with an automatic, which is contrary to the VIN code and the accessories like the torque boxes. It would seem that changing engines and K-members would be an extensive effort for a few pictures. A second car produced later would satify that requirement. Also, does he know how many promotional vehicles were produced? Was it just one or, were there a few to satisfy the media and tour circuit needs? It's quite possible this car was a promotional car and NOT the brochure car. But, it does seem odd that they would mark it a Hemi but have a 440 in it, if they were photographing it as a Hemi car. They wouldn't be able to use any under-hood shots in the brochure, if that were the case.

[TUFCAT]

Tuffcat,

Thanks for the insight! That is terrific information. I'd like to know if they swapped engines in the car for photography. Ours did have a 440 with an automatic, which is contrary to the VIN code and the accessories like the torque boxes. It would seem that changing engines and K-members would be an extensive effort for a few pictures. A second car produced later would satify that requirement. Also, does he know how many promotional vehicles were produced? Was it just one or, were there a few to satisfy the media and tour circuit needs? It's quite possible this car was a promotional car and NOT the brochure car. But, it does seem odd that they would mark it a Hemi but have a 440 in it, if they were photographing it as a Hemi car. They wouldn't be able to use any under-hood shots in the brochure, if that were the case.

Dan, it was definately a 440/auto, although it could wear Hemi badges depending on the desired photo shoot. It never had a Hemi installed at engineering that my Dad had knowledge of. He says the Hemi door emblems were probably "stick on" since it was indended for many different dress rehearsals and holes would be to permanent.  He doesn't recall any holes in the doors when he saw the car.  

He also said Hemi engines and photo shoots don't mix because you know what happens after its been started up, moved, moved again, then again, and finally when they think its in the right location, its moved again!

The car was hardly driven and started up many times.  If given a choice, a 440 would've been chosen over a Hemi for any long term photographic duty strictly for its reliability.  Quite possibly another Hemi car was used for underhood photographic work....but there's no way to prove this 100% because he wasn't closely associated with the photographic studio at the time.

Back in 1966, another Charger "Program Car" was used with a Hemi. He said they could be extremely tempermental, since they were driven inside the complex most of the time and rarely driven on the street.

Like you, I would agree that the CCR Charger may have been built for some other purposes - or maybe a promotional show car vehicle of some sort? Inspect the original front fenders and rear quarters to see if there was any visible patchwork from a possible side marker lamp conversion. This could be interesting....does your car have a 1968 VIN?    Or is it a very early 1969 VIN?

[ccr-host]

According to Galen, the VIN puts it as a July 1968 build, which does seem a little late for the brochure. They would likely have needed a photo car in June. However, in my short time working on ACDelco marketing, I saw some pretty quick turn around's on photo shoots. There also were holes in the door for the Hemi badge and there was no work done to the rear quarter marker lights. But, as I said, there were a number of Hemi features on the car and no R/T markings. That combination was not sold to the public. It also had the manual transmission side plate and torque boxes. The production numbers for four speed Hemi's in 1969 was only 227. Two hundred in the US and 27 in Canada, so either way this is still a pretty rare car... and a TV star now too. The front left fender had been replaced at some point, so the fender tag is gone. If there was a build sheet for it, it's Tennessee compost now!

The whole thing sure is an exciting mystery!   

[tan top]

Get a beer, grab a seat, and put your feet up because what going to tell you is the actual true story about the 'brochure car" from a guy who was there -  42 years ago.

My Dad retired after 35 years with Chrysler Engineering.  He witnessed the development of many (now historical) pre-production cars as they moved through Chrysler engineering at Highland Park. What I'm about to tell you is "the way it was back then".  I realize some background information is needed for credibility sake, so here it goes.

He started Chrysler engineering in 1965. Without a lot of hoopla I can tell you that his job took him to every corner of engineering. His office was 200 feet from the engineering paint shop which was in close proximity to the metal and trim shops. He had the run of engineering which included access to the "security room" where early prototypes were built....(in fact, I was there once as a kid- sshhh, don't tell anybody! ).

Although he didn't have access to the design studio he was invited on an "as needed" basis in the late '60's and early 70's. His last job was working for the concept and specialty vehicle group/design office when he retired from Chrysler in 2001. He now works at the Walter P. Chrysler Museum one day a week.

He lusted over this car for many months, and saw it often before the 1969 models were ever revealed to the public. Since he loved the car so much, he watched its progress during its many phases of 1968.

It was a 1968 Charger that was turned into a 1969 model by the engineering metal shop, trim shop, and paint shop in early 1968. The round side maker lights were changed to the rectangular ones, new grille, and the tail panel was replaced for the new taillights.  It was then repainted several times in building 132 at Highland Park with a peel coat paint job and was shown (and photographed) in many different trim styles .....from base car, to SE, to R/T.

The vinyl top color was also changed from white, to black, then tan, depending on the exterior color.  The vinyl color was easily changed by using a peal coat paint job also.  He's almost sure this was the car photographed as a red R/T with a black tape stripe. 

The engineering office referred to these cars as "program cars". Very few program cars were ever sold to the public for safety and liability reasons, especially ones that have been modified as much as this car was...i.e. a 1968 model dressed as a 1969.  He remembers the powertrain to be a 440/automatic. He also clearly remembers the woodgrain dash -  obviously done because it was shown as an SE.

Back in the late '60's, brochures were done 3 to 4 months in advance of any pre-production cars leaving the assembly line. Printing and photographic technology was nowhere near today's digital standard so engineering typically modified one car into several different color and trim variations for the photographic lab.  Sometimes, when late changes occurred the "next best thing" was to airbrush the photo. Many "retouched" photos were used for print media. 

Personally, my Dad remembers the first time he saw the "new for 1969" Charger. Right away, he decided he wanted to buy a 1969 Charger...and his favorite color was medium bronze just like the brochure car.  He settled for a T7 dark bronze Charger SE instead.

Nobody, especially my Dad, knows for sure if the actual "brochure car" was ever sold by Chrysler, or still exists today.
In regard to the Chop Cut Rebuild Charger...it's very unlikely to be the same car since the brochure car was a 1968 model with a 440.

I will leave it up to you to decide. 

My Dad is registered as: oldhemiman if you want to ask him a question on anything.

Tuffcat,

Thanks for the insight! That is terrific information. I'd like to know if they swapped engines in the car for photography. Ours did have a 440 with an automatic, which is contrary to the VIN code and the accessories like the torque boxes. It would seem that changing engines and K-members would be an extensive effort for a few pictures. A second car produced later would satify that requirement. Also, does he know how many promotional vehicles were produced? Was it just one or, were there a few to satisfy the media and tour circuit needs? It's quite possible this car was a promotional car and NOT the brochure car. But, it does seem odd that they would mark it a Hemi but have a 440 in it, if they were photographing it as a Hemi car. They wouldn't be able to use any under-hood shots in the brochure, if that were the case.

Dan, it was definately a 440/auto, although it could wear Hemi badges depending on the desired photo shoot. It never had a Hemi installed at engineering that my Dad had knowledge of. He says the Hemi door emblems were probably "stick on" since it was indended for many different dress rehearsals and holes would be to permanent.  He doesn't recall any holes in the doors when he saw the car. 

He also said Hemi engines and photo shoots don't mix because you know what happens after its been started up, moved, moved again, then again, and finally when they think its in the right location, its moved again!

The car was hardly driven and started up many times.  If given a choice, a 440 would've been chosen over a Hemi for any long term photographic duty strictly for its reliability.  Quite possibly another Hemi car was used for underhood photographic work....but there's no way to prove this 100% because he wasn't closely associated with the photographic studio at the time.

Back in 1966, another Charger "Program Car" was used with a Hemi. He said they could be extremely tempermental, since they were driven inside the complex most of the time and rarely driven on the street.

Like you, I would agree that the CCR Charger may have been built for some other purposes - or maybe a promotional show car vehicle of some sort? Inspect the original front fenders and rear quarters to see if there was any visible patchwork from a possible side marker lamp conversion. This could be interesting....does your car have a 1968 VIN?    Or is it a very early 1969 VIN?

  this is awesome infomation /story Tuffcat    thanks for sharing