Daytona- Clone or real deal opinion.

[Nassau1969]

There was a person some where on this forum that was selling aluminum Daytona wings. He custom makes them, he makes a few a year, Does anyone no his info I cant seem to find it now.

[billssuperbird]

  clone

[moparstuart]

There was a person some where on this forum that was selling aluminum Daytona wings. He custom makes them, he makes a few a year, Does anyone no his info I can seem to find it now.

daytona guy  dane       http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,62132.0.html

[Charger-Bodie]

There was a person some where on this forum that was selling aluminum Daytona wings. He custom makes them, he makes a few a year, Does anyone no his info I can seem to find it now.

daytona guy  dane       http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,62132.0.html

Yep. Mine gets shipped Monday from Dane.

[Bug shield C500]

You know when you think about it..............ALL Daytona's are Clones aren't they . since they are left the factory as Charger R/T's or Charger R/T SE. then went to a aftermarket company (creative industry's). Got torn apart, thrown back together and did they get new Vin's and fender tags there? I say start with a R/T, buy steel parts and aluminum wings and built the way you would have ordered it from the factory. Then you could say to your self I have one the the early Dayton's that didn't have xx in the vin number. 

Wait, then that makes my C500 a clone....

[A383Wing]

Wait, then that makes my C500 a clone....

Sorry, had to do it...

Bryan  (clone owner) 

[hemigeno]

You know when you think about it..............ALL Daytona's are Clones aren't they . since they are left the factory as Charger R/T's or Charger R/T SE. then went to a aftermarket company (creative industry's). Got torn apart, thrown back together and did they get new Vin's and fender tags there? I say start with a R/T, buy steel parts and aluminum wings and built the way you would have ordered it from the factory. Then you could say to your self I have one the the early Dayton's that didn't have xx in the vin number. 

Wait, then that makes my C500 a clone....

Not exactly...

I don't know where or when the urban legend got started, but Daytonas (or '69 Charger 500's for that matter) did NOT leave the factory as a Charger R/T, nor were they given a different VIN at Creative Industries.  I'm ignoring the one exception to that rule for now, but that's a whole 'nother story. 

These cars were purpose-built as Daytonas, had their XX29 VIN assigned at Hamtramck (with a few Charger 500 exceptions also), had "special" Vehicle Order Numbers, but were indeed converted by Creative Industies under a factory-sanctioned contract. 

[Ghoste]

Besides, in order to be a "clone", there has to be an original so that you have something to "clone" from. 

[41husk]

I would love to have a real wing car, I prefer the profile of the Daytona, I think the charger lines are the greatest of any car!  I prefer, how ever the graphics of the Super Bird.  In this Economy, a decent real Bird would go for 80-200k a real Daytona 90-200+K, a great deal for Mopar dreamers.  I love to drive my cars.  I go to the show, and park in the lot.  I take both chargers and the convertible Challenger to the store, school, church, and Family functions. I would say all three together are not worth the top value of a wing car.  That would make it very tough for me to drive like I want.  That being said, I truly prefer a clone.  That being said, the clone I am getting will cost more than any car I have ever purchased, new or classic, and I feel it is a great deal.  I hope that doesn't effect the way I intend to drive it, knowing that when the economy stabalizes, both real and clone wing car  values will again sky rocket.

[Bug shield C500]

You know when you think about it..............ALL Daytona's are Clones aren't they . since they are left the factory as Charger R/T's or Charger R/T SE. then went to a aftermarket company (creative industry's). Got torn apart, thrown back together and did they get new Vin's and fender tags there? I say start with a R/T, buy steel parts and aluminum wings and built the way you would have ordered it from the factory. Then you could say to your self I have one the the early Dayton's that didn't have xx in the vin number. 

Wait, then that makes my C500 a clone....

Not exactly...

I don't know where or when the urban legend got started, but Daytonas (or '69 Charger 500's for that matter) did NOT leave the factory as a Charger R/T, nor were they given a different VIN at Creative Industries.  I'm ignoring the one exception to that rule for now, but that's a whole 'nother story. 

These cars were purpose-built as Daytonas, had their XX29 VIN assigned at Hamtramck (with a few Charger 500 exceptions also), had "special" Vehicle Order Numbers, but were indeed converted by Creative Industies under a factory-sanctioned contract. 

Well I would think the urban legend came from the Order book in a way . I don't believe you could have ordered a 69 charger with a 440 or Hemi without it being a R/T or R/T SE. And you could not order a RT with anything less then a 440 or Hemi. So since Daytona's and Charger 500s only came with 440's or hemi's they need a full R/T spec build with a couple of deleted emblems to build the needed car for race history. Also how do we explain the 7-12 Daytona SE's and charger 500 SE's. I don't think they would have wasted their time creating a spec for a separate Daytona se model as well. From an engineering stand point I could see them putting the XX on the vin to tell the plant to send this R/T to "C.I". Since the plant did nothing special to the cars before they left it was probably the easiest way to make that happen. Did the Daytona's to be, leave the factory with a standard charger nose and rear glass? 

[Nassau1969]

I believe a few cars made it out the door as proto types that were not R/T's and had Hemi's and 440's. I saw a 1970 Charger 500 for sale and it had a vin # I believe in the first 00005 in 1970 and it was a R code for Hemi and was being sold as a Hemi and was a basket case with documentation and going for $15,000 less motor and trans & that was 15 yrs ago and needing a total resto. And if you look on the cover of a Chilton's manual and some other Mopar old books there is a Copper 1969 Charger White top with no R/T emblems just the regular one and a Hemi badge on the door.

[69bronzeT5]

I'd like to build one someday to my specs. However, if I can afford it one day, I'll get the real deal. Bryan, you got any before pictures of your Daytona?

[A383Wing]

I'd like to build one someday to my specs. However, if I can afford it one day, I'll get the real deal. Bryan, you got any before pictures of your Daytona?

Yea...I got 2..

[hotrod98]

It's amazing how different the car looks now compared to before.

[200MPH]

Clone

Hey 200MPH...here is the plate we had on our purple car

Nice car Love the Plate!

[69bronzeT5]

I'd like to build one someday to my specs. However, if I can afford it one day, I'll get the real deal. Bryan, you got any before pictures of your Daytona?

Yea...I got 2..

I liked it better before!

[hemigeno]

Well I would think the urban legend came from the Order book in a way . I don't believe you could have ordered a 69 charger with a 440 or Hemi without it being a R/T or R/T SE. And you could not order a RT with anything less then a 440 or Hemi.

Nassau1969 has it exactly right - the 1969 Charger Order Form distinctly allowed a person to order a 426 Hemi-powered non-R/T Charger (i.e. XP base model Charger).  The bronze press-release car is the most widely-known of that type, but there was recently a blue(?) XP HemiCharger's fender tag that floated across eBay in the past 6 months.  These are not mythical cars.

My GUESS is that an XP HemiCharger was equipped with all the same mechanical equipment as an R/T (e.g. torsion bars, shocks, springs), but it was not badged as an R/T.  We won't be able to confirm that guess until a Broadcast Sheet for one of these cars is found.

So since Daytona's and Charger 500s only came with 440's or hemi's they need a full R/T spec build with a couple of deleted emblems to build the needed car for race history.

Yes and no.  I'll agree that the C500s and Daytonas had all the HP equipment normally spec'd with a 440 or Hemi engine, but that does NOT make them an R/T.  Every R/T had an XS VIN number, and all but a few oddball examples of C500s had an XX VIN.  It's a matter of semantics, of course - but I personally do not consider the XX cars to be R/Ts.  Another related myth is way more important to correct than this one... the myth that Charger R/T's were randomly pulled off the line and chosen to be converted into a Daytona.  That one is definitely false.

We can agree that from a mechanical equipment standpoint, there are no differences between a C500/Daytona and an R/T.  However, the C500/Daytona were both considered to be different models just like a XP29J9___ base HemiCharger was different than an R/T.  Using your example of the 1969 Dealer Data Book, the Charger500 has its own section right after the Charger & C-R/T section (Daytona's weren't built until late in the model year and a revised Data Book section was never created).  Plus, the Confidential Price Bulletin handled the XP base Charger, XS Charger R/T, XX Charger500 and XX Charger Daytona all as separate models.  The C500 and Daytona packages were NOT priced as "added equipment", they each had their own base price - to which any optional equipment spec'd was added.  They were considered from Day 1 to be a distinct car model.

Also how do we explain the 7-12 Daytona SE's and charger 500 SE's. I don't think they would have wasted their time creating a spec for a separate Daytona se model as well.

The A47 SE package was not a model unto itself.  It was merely a collection of options (some only available in the SE package) added to an XP/XS/XX Charger.  It did not bump the car into a separate or distinct model classification - or at least Chrysler never considered them to be such.  That's the way the Data Book and Price Bulletins both handled this.  Plus, you cannot tell whether a car was an SE or not by the VIN - which to me is important.

From an engineering stand point I could see them putting the XX on the vin to tell the plant to send this R/T to "C.I". Since the plant did nothing special to the cars before they left it was probably the easiest way to make that happen.

We're both guessing here, but I don't think they needed an XX VIN number to know which cars to ship to Creative Industries for conversion.  VIN's/VON's were used to send a specific car, which was built to a specific order, to a specific dealership.  It should not have been a big trick to route a car to Creative Industries with information already in the system.  Plus, creating a separate VIN classification had to have opened up another batch of problems for Chrysler from a bookkeeping standpoint.  IMHO they had another purpose for the XX / model classification.

Did the Daytona's to be, leave the factory with a standard charger nose and rear glass? 

The Daytonas left Hamtramck with nearly all of their 1969 Charger components.  The biggest (only?) omission was the grille assembly.  The reason they mostly completed assembling the car as a '69 Charger was almost certainly to make sure they could not be nailed by the Feds for building or shipping cars from the factory (even if it was just over to C.I., it was still off Chrysler's property and outside their immediate control/oversight) without all their safety equipment like headlights, bumpers, turn signals, side reflectors, etc.  The cars were also stored outside before conversion which meant they couldn't leave out the back glass, trim, or even the hood without leaving the car quite exposed (think Warranty).

Another guess on my part is that one of the reasons Superbirds were assembled at Clairepoint by Chrysler employees was to cut out this exact step in the process... meaning if the cars never left Chrysler property they could be partially built prior to conversion.  That saved on both labor and parts which was a much bigger deal for the 4x larger 'Bird project.


The crux of all my ramblings is this:

I personally feel the VIN establishes the model not the equipment package or specifications it contains.  Guess maybe I should have just stated that and shut up.   

[NYCMille]

Well... considering I just went through this I can safely say I build a clone again over a real one in a heartbeat. I'm a big fan of modifications and in all honesty I don't think I could bring myself to ever modify a real Daytona. Building a clone gives you the freedom to build whatever your vision may be. Want a pink one with purple interior... then go ahead build it. From a performance standpoint you'll be able to modify anything and everything you wish and build your vision of your perfect Daytona. I know I did and I wouldn't have had any other way.

 

[hotrod98]

Do what I've done and buy a wingcar that someone has already modified the crap out of and no one will fault you for changing it just a little bit more. 

[Bug shield C500]

Well I would think the urban legend came from the Order book in a way . I don't believe you could have ordered a 69 charger with a 440 or Hemi without it being a R/T or R/T SE. And you could not order a RT with anything less then a 440 or Hemi.

Nassau1969 has it exactly right - the 1969 Charger Order Form distinctly allowed a person to order a 426 Hemi-powered non-R/T Charger (i.e. XP base model Charger).  The bronze press-release car is the most widely-known of that type, but there was recently a blue(?) XP HemiCharger's fender tag that floated across eBay in the past 6 months.  These are not mythical cars.

My GUESS is that an XP HemiCharger was equipped with all the same mechanical equipment as an R/T (e.g. torsion bars, shocks, springs), but it was not badged as an R/T.  We won't be able to confirm that guess until a Broadcast Sheet for one of these cars is found.

So since Daytona's and Charger 500s only came with 440's or hemi's they need a full R/T spec build with a couple of deleted emblems to build the needed car for race history.

Yes and no.  I'll agree that the C500s and Daytonas had all the HP equipment normally spec'd with a 440 or Hemi engine, but that does NOT make them an R/T.  Every R/T had an XS VIN number, and all but a few oddball examples of C500s had an XX VIN.  It's a matter of semantics, of course - but I personally do not consider the XX cars to be R/Ts.  Another related myth is way more important to correct than this one... the myth that Charger R/T's were randomly pulled off the line and chosen to be converted into a Daytona.  That one is definitely false.

We can agree that from a mechanical equipment standpoint, there are no differences between a C500/Daytona and an R/T.  However, the C500/Daytona were both considered to be different models just like a XP29J9___ base HemiCharger was different than an R/T.  Using your example of the 1969 Dealer Data Book, the Charger500 has its own section right after the Charger & C-R/T section (Daytona's weren't built until late in the model year and a revised Data Book section was never created).  Plus, the Confidential Price Bulletin handled the XP base Charger, XS Charger R/T, XX Charger500 and XX Charger Daytona all as separate models.  The C500 and Daytona packages were NOT priced as "added equipment", they each had their own base price - to which any optional equipment spec'd was added.  They were considered from Day 1 to be a distinct car model.

Also how do we explain the 7-12 Daytona SE's and charger 500 SE's. I don't think they would have wasted their time creating a spec for a separate Daytona se model as well.

The A47 SE package was not a model unto itself.  It was merely a collection of options (some only available in the SE package) added to an XP/XS/XX Charger.  It did not bump the car into a separate or distinct model classification - or at least Chrysler never considered them to be such.  That's the way the Data Book and Price Bulletins both handled this.  Plus, you cannot tell whether a car was an SE or not by the VIN - which to me is important.

From an engineering stand point I could see them putting the XX on the vin to tell the plant to send this R/T to "C.I". Since the plant did nothing special to the cars before they left it was probably the easiest way to make that happen.

We're both guessing here, but I don't think they needed an XX VIN number to know which cars to ship to Creative Industries for conversion.  VIN's/VON's were used to send a specific car, which was built to a specific order, to a specific dealership.  It should not have been a big trick to route a car to Creative Industries with information already in the system.  Plus, creating a separate VIN classification had to have opened up another batch of problems for Chrysler from a bookkeeping standpoint.  IMHO they had another purpose for the XX / model classification.

Did the Daytona's to be, leave the factory with a standard charger nose and rear glass? 

The Daytonas left Hamtramck with nearly all of their 1969 Charger components.  The biggest (only?) omission was the grille assembly.  The reason they mostly completed assembling the car as a '69 Charger was almost certainly to make sure they could not be nailed by the Feds for building or shipping cars from the factory (even if it was just over to C.I., it was still off Chrysler's property and outside their immediate control/oversight) without all their safety equipment like headlights, bumpers, turn signals, side reflectors, etc.  The cars were also stored outside before conversion which meant they couldn't leave out the back glass, trim, or even the hood without leaving the car quite exposed (think Warranty).

Another guess on my part is that one of the reasons Superbirds were assembled at Clairepoint by Chrysler employees was to cut out this exact step in the process... meaning if the cars never left Chrysler property they could be partially built prior to conversion.  That saved on both labor and parts which was a much bigger deal for the 4x larger 'Bird project.


The crux of all my ramblings is this:

I personally feel the VIN establishes the model not the equipment package or specifications it contains.  Guess maybe I should have just stated that and shut up.   

WOW I stand corrected. In all my years of mopar I have never seen a XP hemi or 440 69 charger. They must be the rarest of them all!. my new quest,I want one!! 

[hemigeno]

The crux of all my ramblings is this:

I personally feel the VIN establishes the model not the equipment package or specifications it contains.  Guess maybe I should have just stated that and shut up.  

WOW I stand corrected. In all my years of mopar I have never seen a XP hemi or 440 69 charger. They must be the rarest of them all!. my new quest,I want one!!  

For the record, I haven't seen anything that says a non-R/T 440 Charger was possible.  It seems they made an exception for the Hemi and not the more mass-produced 440, even though that sounds counterintuitive.  

If you really want to own an XP HemiCharger, here's your chance:

This would be the second XP29J car I know of.....

The second one is a T5 tan one that Shafi Keisler owns

(PS its for sale.....PM me for details)

[Daytona Guy]

Well... considering I just went through this I can safely say I build a clone again over a real one in a heartbeat. I'm a big fan of modifications and in all honesty I don't think I could bring myself to ever modify a real Daytona. Building a clone gives you the freedom to build whatever your vision may be. Want a pink one with purple interior... then go ahead build it. From a performance standpoint you'll be able to modify anything and everything you wish and build your vision of your perfect Daytona. I know I did and I wouldn't have had any other way.

 

Exactly - well said. Why I do the same.

[Daytona Guy]

Do what I've done and buy a wingcar that someone has already modified the crap out of and no one will fault you for changing it just a little bit more. 

I love your Bird - Looks way better than the vinyl top Birds that cut the car in half - esthetically. IMHO

[hotrod98]

Thanks.
The only problem with leaving the vinyl top off is that most people think it's a clone. I'm considering putting one back on even though I think the car looks better without it. I'll make my final decision before carshow season.

[PocketThunder]

Here is a Bronze Daytona for sale, thanks to tan top for finding it.  http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,63923.0.html