Buddy Bakers Daytona

[odcics2]

 

[therealmoparman]

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[Aero426]

It was at Chicago in Feb of 70 (while the Daytona 500 was going on).    A good example that exact details of recollections in the absence of photos (including people you know) are subject to time.   There would be no reason to build this new car for 1971 shows when the Daytona body design was obsolete. 

As to Mr. Agosta,  I wasn't involved and there was no ability, or even a reason to go back and ask a follow up question.  Obviously, the photo stands.    But the salient parts about who ordered construction and its purpose stand.   Mr. Agosta certainly had no dog in the fight.   

[odcics2]

So, photographic proof the Show Car Daytona was at Chicago when one of the other Daytonas, in this case DC-84, was racing at Daytona.

I agree with you, memories are suspect. Therefore vintage photographs rule.   

What we have is that Cotton's DC-84 Daytona was racing at the 1970 Daytona 500 when the Show car was being exhibited in Chicago.   
We have photographic evidence of this.     

Look at the 1970 World 600 Program.  One photos show a few Daytonas at Cottons Shop.    How many were there?
The K&K guys had 6 race cars, at least, in 1970.   

[Aero426]

1966 street Hemi



Hear it run.  

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=722419194460807&set=vb.213574712011927&type=2&theater

[therealmoparman]

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[odcics2]

I looked at the link - nice display of history.
I fixed one photo for you below.   Have to be historically correct!   
Feel free to update the Cotton Owens website. 
 

[therealmoparman]

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[69_500]

When did Baker "unofficially" go 200+ prior to doing it in the #88 car, in the COG #6?

[C5HM]

By way of full disclosure...I am not "The Real Mopar Man" (what a self absorbed self description that is). In fact, I am not "a" Mopar guy at all. But I am a fellow who has spent thousands of hours studying photographs of Grand National stock cars. And I am also a fellow who has spent many, many happy hours interviewing the folks who were "there". So, far from being disqualified from further participation (palpable hubris , that) as some may contend, I actually have a pretty objective and informed position to judge this debate from.

I am not the fellow (fraudster?) who misrepresented the Daytona show car in order to sell if for 800K.
I am not the current owner of that car who continues that misrepresentation.
And I really have no dog in the fight. Except to see that NASCAR history is not adulterated more than it apready has been.

Firstly, Memories fade; photographs NEVER forget.  Doug S. and Greg K. are rivet counters. So am I. We pour over ever minute detail of a given stock car chassis (and photos of the same) because each aspect of "how it was done" is fascinating to us.  From those photos we have learned (and it can be established) in many cases just which cars were what.  

There is an incredible amount of fraud and misrepresentation out there about old stock cars. Lots of it actually comes from NASCAR and the NASCAR museums, sad to say. The COG supposed Southern 500 winning Daytona was just one of several misrepresented cars that perpitrated a fraud on the public at the Joe Weatherly Museum...for decades. The Fireball Roberts Galaxie...is not a car Fireball ever drove. In fact, it is not even a 1963 Galaxie ...rather it was a 1964 chassis that Banjo built for AJ and (later) for Junior to run. The Johnny Mantz car was a complete fake. Ditto for the Jim Reed Chevrolet. The supposed Joe Weatherly 1964 Marauder was never driven by Joe as a '64. Rather it was a 1963 Marauder that Joe got at the 1963 Southern 500 when Bud signed with Fomoco. And...as has been established to my satisfaction, the #6 Daytona was not the Southern 500 car it was claimed to be. Rather it is a Charger 500 (and perhaps an even earlier car) that was tarted up for sho duty.

The people who built and raced these cars (and not just johnny come lately pups revelling in the reflected glow of their forbearers) did NOT study or count rivets. Cotton didn't. Bud didn't. and Ralph Moody didn't. The cars they raced were tools to achieve an end. Winning the next race.  They raced them and then moved on to the next best thing. For someone today to say that they heard this or that from the folks who were there is not very compelling....unless they had photos of specific details to jog memories.

Human beings forget. It is a fact of life. And...they certainly don't remember things they never paid attention to in the first place.

In my research with the old GN hands, I have found time and again that memory of technical details is often (if not always but certainly more often than not) at odds with the photographic record.  Since Mr. Moore's name has been dropped by the aggitator in this thread, I will tell you that I have spent many, many happy days picking his brain about the mechanical details of the cars he raced. His memory was...on many occassions...incorrect.  When presented a photograph of the subject in question, his memory was refreshed. And corrected.  

That is just the way it is with human recollection. I am quite sure it was the same way across the sport...to include across town from Bud at Cotton's shop.  I, for example, got to have lunch with Mr. Ownes on a number of occassions...and I asked him some technical questions...his answers weren't exactly detailed. Whose would be after 40 years+? (How many of you can give a mecnanical dissertation on, say, the car you drove in high shcool, for example?).

The agitator in this thread was..it appears...not even alive in 1970 (or if so, not far removed from the teat). So he himself has no first hand knowledge. Nor does he own or has restored/wrenched on a period Mopar wing car, either. (It bears mentioning that Doug S. and Greg K. own such cars, and have worked on them.). And I am equally sure that the agitator in this thread does not have access to the same historic photos that other folks posting here do. It follows that...when talking to folks for however long he claims to...he didn't have those same photographs to refresh their recollections. So all he has..if he remembers correctly...is their potentially incorrect sepia toned memories.

As to documents from back in the day...the written record is only as accurate as the person composing it. None of the documents presented recently in this thread actually documents what the proponent claims they do.  They are all third hand, indirect and oblique. That's just the fact. Licensing agreements written by third parties in the 80s and other such second hand information is often incorrect. Not to mention the fact that...there was sometimes a reason for intentional incorrectness in historical documents (like
licensing agreements).  And, please to remember, the COG Daytona was represented to the public for decades as the Southern 500 car.  Who imagines that Mr. Ownes would have been eager to go behind that misrepresentation...even if he recalled the actual mechanical history of the car?

On the Ford side of the equation, I can tell you for sure that H&M's "cost plus operation" was rife with intentional falsehoods....In fact, when Iacocca ordered a complete audit of all Fomoco racing operations in 1969 H&M was found to be  TEN (10) millions dollars short.  Bud, BTW, only had one tank of gas unaccounted for in his audit.  So...not everyone was shading the truth back in the day...but some were. So, historical documents must be looked at sceptically.

So what is left upon which to make a decision?  As mentioned, period photographs of specific details that capture history like a fly caught in amber are not subject to debate.
Doug S has made a compelling case with just such photographs.
The (Un)real Mopar Man has not.
End of story.

[Aero426]

Your Cottons Grandson correct?  I am late in this thread but just knowing your relationship to Cotton it would be difficult to refute anything from you.

Here is a race car museum you should plan to visit if you enjoy this sort of historical accuracy.

http://www.memorylaneautomuseum.com/Home_Page.html

[therealmoparman]

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[Indygenerallee]

 

[69_500]

There is a difference in hitting 200 at a point in a lap, and averaging 200 for a lap too.

[moparnation74]

Your Cottons Grandson correct?  I am late in this thread but just knowing your relationship to Cotton it would be difficult to refute anything from you.

Here is a race car museum you should plan to visit if you enjoy this sort of historical accuracy.

http://www.memorylaneautomuseum.com/Home_Page.html

Thanks, or the link/info.  That is right up my alley, time to schedule a winter trip.

Whether this car is real or not makes no difference to me personally.  That is an issue between buyer/seller.  This said car fake or not was tastefully restored.  I think with the people involved no one is going to win over another on opinions.

[therealmoparman]

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[therealmoparman]

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[Aero426]

You present a photo of a car on a trailer, tell me it's in Ohio, Cotton was there, etc. Then you proceed to tell me WHY it was there. That's a lot of bullshit. You have no idea, unless you were there yourself. So why go to such lengths to portray your version as the truth, when you are embellishing the story. If only part of it is true, then what part exactly? How can we believe any part of it, if you would stretch what you claim to know on another part of it? You can't know WHY it was there, because you weren't there.

I should tell you the rest of the story.   I know you won't believe it.   But it's pretty good.  

[therealmoparman]

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[therealmoparman]

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[therealmoparman]

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[C5HM]

I think it was Winston Churchill who provided an apt definition for a Fanatic: One who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

It is pretty clear that The Real Mopar Man fits that definition.

It is equally clear that he will continue flopping around like a mullet on the bank, regardless of what the photographic record is.

Likewise, it is evident that he will continue with his puerile taunts and ad hominems in the process.

I am reminded of the Black Knight in the Monty Python Classic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKhEw7nD9C4

Sadly, he is so unselfaware, that he has no idea what a figure of fun he has made of himself here.

One wonders why he clings so tenaciously to this tissue of lies about the Daytona.
Is there nothing else in his life that gives a sense of accomplishment save for his lineage to Mr. Owens and this replica?

BTW, Doug, your snark about Fantasy Lane almost made me spill my single malt. That would have been a loss.

Good work on documenting what the replica Dodge Daytona is ...and isn't.

[69_500]

I have to say this thread has been nothing short of entertaining all day long. Thank you. It was a rough day at work for me today, not wal-mart but still tough none the less.

[odcics2]

When did Baker "unofficially" go 200+ prior to doing it in the #88 car, in the COG #6?

From the book "Flat Out and Half Turned Over - Tales From Pit Road with Buddy Baker" - Chapter 12, "The 200 mph Man":

"Dodge picked me to run the first official 200 mph lap at Talladega. We had all run 200 mph before, but not officially. When they did pick me to be the one, there was a lot of bellyaching from the rest of the guys driving Dodges. We got a lot of press. It wasn't a big deal for me back then, but it became a big part of my life."

I wasn't there myself, but if Baker says he did, I guess he did, didn't he?

Any laps over 200 were done at the Chelsea Proving Grounds in the second test session July 20th., 1969.
203 was the top speed for a timed lap.   Both Charlie and Buddy were at that session.
(yes, there are rumors that Charlie went 243!  Really??  The hemi  didn't even have a Dominator on it. I know I have
the original photos of both test sessions)

You are correct in saying that only a Nascar timed lap is official.

Now, tell me how fast Buddy went during race conditions with no side glass at the April 1970 Talladega race
and I'll tell you how much horsepower the hemi would have to be making to do it. 

Keep in mind that Lee Roy had the top speed that day during the race of a documented, Nascar timed lap, barely over 199. mph.
That was leading a draft, and we all know that the draft helped speed by a few MPHs.

[odcics2]

Just to clarify one more thing regarding that 200 mph record.

It was strictly Chrysler's idea to promote the #6 Daytona and Baker with the record. COG had nothing to do with the promotion or marketing of this, it was not their decision to make.

FWIW

Let's see the proof.