Re: Contemplating My Build Part II - DYNO RESULTS!!!: 658hp / 667 fpt

[joflaig]

Over a year and a half ago, with the help of members here, particularly Ron, I had a local shop build me an awesome street/strip 512 making 542 hp and 612 fpt at the crank. So far the motor has operated perfectly and the best time I've gotten is 12.17, though with some suspension adjustments and more practice I'm certain I will get into the high 11s, which was my goal -- though it's Oct. now in Wisconsin and I won't have but one more chance to go to the track (maybe).

Anyway, since I've been bitten by the racing bug and winter is 6 months long here, I figure I need to find a way to blow my salary during this time (luckily I did not get fired in the layoffs we had, so I can spend freely). Anyway, this is the original build and all the specs (mid-way through the page):

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,36197.180.html

Now before I even do anything with the heads, cam or intake, the first thing they're doing at the shop is to install a Gear Vendors Overdrive unit, a new Dana 60 w/4.10 gears from Dr. Diff, and a radiator support and inner fender braces, both from XV. I'll have to get a new driveshaft safety loop because the really cool adjustable one I have from US Car Tools that bolts to the tranny cross member won't work with a GV OD . I also had to buy a new 3" H-PIPE from TTI to replace the X-Pipe, because it too interfers with the OD unit. I also bought electric exhaust cut-outs from Marylandspeed. And lastly, will be ordering (most likely) a Hurst Pistolgrip Quarter stick to convert from a column shift to a floor shift.

So once all this is done by March or April, I will come back to the engine work. I had a long talk with Dwayne Porter, who everyone here has probably heard of. He really seemed to be a genuine mensch, as they say.

My goals remain the same: a street/strip setup needing low, or no maintenance. Since racing turned out to be so much fun and low end torque on the street such a blast, I ask: why not have even more! The Gear Vendors OD will make up for the loss of fuel economy when cruising, though to be honest what I am getting now is better than what I thought I would get.

However, not only did I talk to Dwayne, but also spoke first with Chenoweth Speed & Machine (they are near me).
Based on my parameters, this is what Chenoweth said I should do:

-Take existing Eddy Performers and use Modern Cylinder Head in Michigan to CNC the heads to 330 cfm
-Aim for 11:1 compression
-214 valve (?)
-springs need to be replaced
-push rods need to be replaced
-rocker arms work
-titanium retainers
-10 degree locks
-new head gaskets
-switch to hydraulic roller Cam from Comp
-switch to port matched Edelbrock Victor Intake (says adds 30hp over the Holley Street Dominator I have)
-Switch to Quick Fuel 1050hp race carb
-says current tranny setup is sufficient

Now when I talked with Dwayne, his first advice was not to get stuck on numbers. Based on what we discussed, though, he thought the car should turn out 650+ hp and 680fpt on pump gas. He was also very much against Chenoweth's idea of CNC–ing the current Eddy heads to that degree. He thought I could never make the power I wanted with these heads. Here's what Dwayne suggested:

-11:1 compression using Indy EZ-1 heads, hand-ported
-Indy dual plane intake, max wedge port size, 0 deck height (would fit stock hood)
-KEEP the existing carb (ProForm 950)
- Cam:  using a solid cam, he said, would be a little noisier and I would have to deal with valve lash, meaning making adjustments once a year. OR, he said try a bigger hydraulic cam (he mentioned a problem with floating valves). He said with a solid cam we could easily increase max RPM to 7000 (the current chip has a 6000rpm limit). Dwayne likes Comp Cams. He said they will optionally do plasma nitrating to take into account the lack of zinc in modern oils.

CAM science is hard for me to grasp. But I really want to avoid anything that forces me to deal with making annual value adjustments. I guess at the power levels I'm looking at this can have some drawbacks, even if I don't completely understand all the ins and outs.

Next, again, contrary to Chenoweth, Dwayne says that titanium retainers would be overkill and that chrome molly would be fine.

-10 degree locks
-Cometic brand head gaskets, multi-layer steel gasket

He said we would sell me a pushrod kit, but my local engine builder would have to cut them to length and push the tips in.

Dwayne also said I shouldn't need to do anything with the bottom end. I have billet Main Caps. He said low 11s would be a no brainer, high 10s possible, but largely only if the car was set up with higher stall (4400-4500) 9.5" torque converter -- which he said was good for the street and should gain 600-700rpm. Right now I have a 10" Street "S-800" Series Turbo Action Torque Converter. TA doesn't sell a 9.5" converter, just 8" and 10".

So, to reiterate, I think I will go with Dwayne, but the big questions I have are:

-Based on what I've said, what cam do I go with?
-Do I need a girdle?
-With whom and What should I use for a Torque Converter?

I'll post pics of everything that goes into this build over the next months. I have to do a lot to the car first in order to deal with the engine upgrades.

[firefighter3931]

Hi John, for what you want to do i would go with Dwayne's recommendations hands down ! The standard port head will limit RPM with a stroker which will in turn limit top end power. The max wedge EZ-1's with an ICH dual plane is the way to go. Dwayne has done enough of the standard port stroker builds to know how they behave so i would trust his judgement.

The problem with blowing out an Eddy head to flow 320 cfm is that it leaves the port walls thin and prone to potential leaks. The critical dimension in any port is the smallest area (pushrod pinch) and even max ported.....the RPM heads are still too small for a serious stroker build, even one that runs pump gas. The engine has to  pull well into the 6-6.5k range to carry the horsepower and torque. The eddy std port heads usually peak in the 5.5-5.6k range on those type of builds unless you throw lots of cam and compression at it to compensate for the small port. That in turn makes it less streetable and requires race gas.  

As for the cam....let Dwayne pick one for you and by all means go with the solid flat tappet. Nitriding the lobes and using an EDM style lifter with priority lobe oiling will make it reliable and durable.


The converter will need to be upsized. Dynamic has a 9.5in unit that would work fine with that application. I have one in my car right now that stalls right at 4000 rpm with my 446 and would stall to ~4500 behind a stroker. It will be for sale if you're interested because it won't work with my 572 that's currently being built....i need something a little more heavy duty.  


Racing is fun and yes it's addictive. I managed an 11.96 at Norwalk with the 446 at 4100 raceweight but i'm looking for more just as you are. Welcome to the downward spiral of drag racing. I wonder if there is a support group for guys like us !  




Ron


Ps. If you haven't seen this thread check it out : pics and youtube vids of the Black Pig in action 

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,61906.0.html

[Runner]

this is an interesting post.    dont be afraid of the anual valve adjustments. get a set of the moroso valve cover gaskets. it takes me about 30 minutes every spring to adjust my valves.  i do it right before i change the oil.   really, im morso checking the adjustment and not adjusting . i probably tweek 4 of so adjusters every spring.  when i first put my aluminum heads on i adjusted the valves then i got the engine warmed up and pulled one valve cover and adjusted the valves, then got it warmed up again and adjusted the other side, i then let it sit over night and checked the adjustment. i found that i my adjustment grows .003 from cold to hot.  so now i adjust the valves cold .003 tighter.   

        im sure MR. Porter will make you happy.

[Runner]

Ron,  there is a suport group for the drag racing bug,  they have weekly meetings every saturday at a track near you....   congrats on getting your car to the track looks, sounds and runs great!!

[firefighter3931]

Ron,  there is a suport group for the drag racing bug,  they have weekly meetings every saturday at a track near you....   

That's no help....those guys have all the same issues ! 

congrats on getting your car to the track looks, sounds and runs great!!

Thanks Mike.....it's working well for what it is. The cam is too large and it's holding back the short times. It would probably ET much better with the XS282S and still run the same MPH. It's overcammed, no doubt but we were looking for the big HP number on the dyno and sort of lost track of the big picture. It's all part of the learning curve. Really this combo needs more stall and gear to ET & MPH better.....i'm going thru the traps at 5500 which is well below peak power. Even at 114mph it could ET at 11.50 if everything else was "right" with the stall and gearing. Not bad for a 4100lb Pig with 446 cubes and pump gas 


Sorry for the highjack John....back to your regularly scheduled programming. 




Ron

[Blown70]

personally I have chatted with Dwayne and would go with his suggestions above....

I dont think there is that much wrong with the other suggetions but, overall you will be much happier in the long run with Dwaynes suggestions.

Tom.

[mally69]

I love these big stroker posts         Trust dwayne he'll hook ya up with all the good stuff matched the right way, so that it runs the way it should. 

[joflaig]

The converter will need to be upsized. Dynamic has a 9.5in unit that would work fine with that application. I have one in my car right now that stalls right at 4000 rpm with my 446 and would stall to ~4500 behind a stroker. It will be for sale if you're interested because it won't work with my 572 that's currently being built....i need something a little more heavy duty.  

I watched those you tube vids, pretty cool! NOTHING more awesome than a black '68 (except a black '69). When ever I am at a track there are always so few MOPARs (never been to a MOPAR only event), it's like watching a rare species.

I may take you up on the converter. I guess I'll have one for sale too, as well as an x-pipe when they're out.

I guess adjusting the values is not something I should freak out about. For me, at least, I don't actually enjoy working on cars that much. It's more of a frustrating pain in *ss than anything else and I already have a lot of other pain in the *ss stuff I have to do, just like everyone else. But I do like to learn how everything works, to the extent that I can.

So  Ron, if it were you, how big a cam would you go with? It seems like your Black Pig had similiar street/strip goals. What kind of power with the Indy heads and intake will various cams make? I know Dwayne will give me advice, but it won't be months till I talk with him again, and getting some sense now would help me to think about what I want to do when the time comes. I guess from a more connservative to agressive spectrum what am I looking at in lift and duration and then power? In terms of streetablity every combo would have different pros and cons.

[Runner]

ron, how tall of a tire do you run?  it looks pretty tall.      4100 pounds is alot of car to get moving.  what did your car 60? and what carb do you run if you dont mind me asking.    the reason i ask is my car 60's kinda slow for the et and ive thought about trying a 950 hp but wonder if it would just 60' worse, mph better and et the same.   thats exactly what happened to my junk when i went to 1 7/8 hookers from 1 3/4 headmans. no real et change just moved some numbers around.

    joflaig, dont be afraid to pm dwayne or e-mail him, its nice to have the conversation in writting to go back and look at what he acually said months later. i have a pile pm's from him saved and i go back and look at them all the time.

    did dwayne give you any idea what size cam he would sugest?.      when i got my comp xe282s cam from him, he acually speced that cam for a 383 and at the last minute my friend/machinest told me to build a 451 sence all we needed was a 440 crank sence i had an old 400 block laying around.  i sometimes wonder if stepping up to a comp xe292s would be worth the effort.

[joflaig]

ron, how tall of a tire do you run?  it looks pretty tall.      4100 pounds is alot of car to get moving.  what did your car 60? and what carb do you run if you dont mind me asking.    the reason i ask is my car 60's kinda slow for the et and ive thought about trying a 950 hp but wonder if it would just 60' worse, mph better and et the same.   thats exactly what happened to my junk when i went to 1 7/8 hookers from 1 3/4 headmans. no real et change just moved some numbers around.

    joflaig, dont be afraid to pm dwayne or e-mail him, its nice to have the conversation in writting to go back and look at what he acually said months later. i have a pile pm's from him saved and i go back and look at them all the time.

    did dwayne give you any idea what size cam he would sugest?.      when i got my comp xe282s cam from him, he acually speced that cam for a 383 and at the last minute my friend/machinest told me to build a 451 sence all we needed was a 440 crank sence i had an old 400 block laying around.  i sometimes wonder if stepping up to a comp xe292s would be worth the effort.

We didn't get into specifcs on cam combos. I guess I could ping him again, just don't like to  seem like I'm pestering him.

[firefighter3931]

So  Ron, if it were you, how big a cam would you go with? It seems like your Black Pig had similiar street/strip goals. What kind of power with the Indy heads and intake will various cams make? I know Dwayne will give me advice, but it won't be months till I talk with him again, and getting some sense now would help me to think about what I want to do when the time comes. I guess from a more connservative to agressive spectrum what am I looking at in lift and duration and then power? In terms of streetablity every combo would have different pros and cons.

John, the cam for your build will be something relatively mild due to the power brake booster requirement. You might want to consider manual brakes or a hydroboost setup so that the cam profile can be made more agressive. I'm thinking that a mid 260@.050 cam on a 110* LSA should be in the ballpark. The Comp Cams "SQ" lobe family has moderately agressive lobes that make excellent power but are still stable at high RPM with reasonable valvespring pressures. Dwayne will select the right cam for the combination after he preps your cylinder heads. It's a huge advantage having your cylinder head Guru choose the cam....especially one as experienced as Dwayne.

I'm having a 572 built by Dwayne and he's doing the head porting and will also be selecting the cam for this combination. I trust him to make the right choice and know that he will 

As for the valve lash.....don't be intimidated by that at all....it's a piece of cake ! Once you do it once or twice you'll wonder what all the fuss was about. I like doing the lash check once a year because it gives me the opportunity to inspect the valve train and see if there is anything unusual going on.

I will also recommend this video to you.....it's a must have for any hot rodder. 

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,62311.0.html



Ron

[joflaig]

So  Ron, if it were you, how big a cam would you go with? It seems like your Black Pig had similiar street/strip goals. What kind of power with the Indy heads and intake will various cams make? I know Dwayne will give me advice, but it won't be months till I talk with him again, and getting some sense now would help me to think about what I want to do when the time comes. I guess from a more connservative to agressive spectrum what am I looking at in lift and duration and then power? In terms of streetablity every combo would have different pros and cons.

John, the cam for your build will be something relatively mild due to the power brake booster requirement. You might want to consider manual brakes or a hydroboost setup so that the cam profile can be made more agressive. I'm thinking that a mid 260@.050 cam on a 110* LSA should be in the ballpark. The Comp Cams "SQ" lobe family has moderately agressive lobes that make excellent power but are still stable at high RPM with reasonable valvespring pressures. Dwayne will select the right cam for the combination after he preps your cylinder heads. It's a huge advantage having your cylinder head Guru choose the cam....especially one as experienced as Dwayne.

I'm having a 572 built by Dwayne and he's doing the head porting and will also be selecting the cam for this combination. I trust him to make the right choice and know that he will 

As for the valve lash.....don't be intimidated by that at all....it's a piece of cake ! Once you do it once or twice you'll wonder what all the fuss was about. I like doing the lash check once a year because it gives me the opportunity to inspect the valve train and see if there is anything unusual going on.

I will also recommend this video to you.....it's a must have for any hot rodder. 

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,62311.0.html



Ron

Vacum should NOT an issue, I already have a Hydroboost setup for the breaks, which work great. If you have big discs on all four corners and power steering, I think it may be the bestway to go without a lot of headaches.

Right now the cam is 244/250 duration @ .050.

Since there will be an overdrive installed I'm leaning more to the aggressive end of the spectrum.

Now, without blowing a wad to convert to a manual transmission, which I really don't want to do, is there such a thing that allows you to kind of switch from the control of a manual value body tranny to an a full automatic with the flick of switch? When racing the 727 had a tendency to decide when it wanted to shift into 3rd which was not always at the optimal RPM, I think.

[firefighter3931]

Now, without blowing a wad to convert to a manual transmission, which I really don't want to do, is there such a thing that allows you to kind of switch from the control of a manual value body tranny to an a full automatic with the flick of switch? When racing the 727 had a tendency to decide when it wanted to shift into 3rd which was not always at the optimal RPM, I think.

John,

Turbo Action has several different valvebodies available and they do make a manual/automatic performance model. This unit allows for automatic shifting during normal driving as well as full manual control while racing. I use a full manual VB in mine with the forward pattern and just shift manually as required. 


Ron

[joflaig]

Now, without blowing a wad to convert to a manual transmission, which I really don't want to do, is there such a thing that allows you to kind of switch from the control of a manual value body tranny to an a full automatic with the flick of switch? When racing the 727 had a tendency to decide when it wanted to shift into 3rd which was not always at the optimal RPM, I think.

John,

Turbo Action has several different valvebodies available and they do make a manual/automatic performance model. This unit allows for automatic shifting during normal driving as well as full manual control while racing. I use a full manual VB in mine with the forward pattern and just shift manually as required. 


Ron

Cool, I guess if I have any money left over after all this, I'll look into that.

[firefighter3931]

ron, how tall of a tire do you run?  it looks pretty tall.      4100 pounds is alot of car to get moving.  what did your car 60? and what carb do you run if you dont mind me asking.    the reason i ask is my car 60's kinda slow for the et and ive thought about trying a 950 hp but wonder if it would just 60' worse, mph better and et the same.   thats exactly what happened to my junk when i went to 1 7/8 hookers from 1 3/4 headmans. no real et change just moved some numbers around.

   

Mike, sorry i missed this question initially. 

The tires are tall 295/65/15's which are close to 30in mounted up. Gear is a 4.10 Dana 60. The best 60ft has been 1.75 which is not bad given the tall tire and lack of gear. This cam really needs a 5k stall to launch well at the 4100 raceweight and i've managed just over 4k (stall) with the overcammed 446. The carb is an AED 850 double pumper and it feels great...no stumble or off idle bog. The headers are probably too big as well but when i was buying parts the long range plan was for a 493 so the exhaust was sized with that future build in mind. Lots of stuff mismatched for the "current" build.


Ron

[Runner]

thanks for the the info Ron.     you could always try a shorter tire.  if ya lived closer id loan ya my 28.5x9 slicks and see if they help.  i think when these die im going to give a drag radial a shot. 

  joflaig, i hope ya keep us posed on this. im interested in how it all works out.

[joflaig]

thanks for the the info Ron.     you could always try a shorter tire.  if ya lived closer id loan ya my 28.5x9 slicks and see if they help.  i think when these die im going to give a drag radial a shot. 

  joflaig, i hope ya keep us posed on this. im interested in how it all works out.

I'll post some pics this weekend of all the parts I have gathered up so far. Just got the pistol grip shifter today from summit, awesome!

[joflaig]

When to the shop yesterday to check the progress. They are willing to only work on the car just 1 week per month since winter is essentially 6 months here so this is making it all afforable and at the end everything should be accomplished.

First things before the motor can be upgraded is strengthening the body. They've got most of the work done installing the XV radiator support and inner fender braces.

[joflaig]

Went to the shop today, lots of work has been done. It won't be for at least another month until I get back on the phone with Dwayne Porter. Anyway, they're going to pull the motor and I'll have the cam, heads and intake swap done at a local engine builder.

You can see in these first pics the XV radiator support as well the new fenders from AMD. AMD's shipper (Averitt Express) did a lousy job of handling them and there were some dents and scratches. Averitt refused to pay for the damage because they said the parts were not inspected upon delivery. The delivery guy just dropped them off then split. The guys at the shop never even had a chance to inpect them. AMD says they don't use Averitt Express exlusively. I would advise anyone ordering from AMD to ask that they not use Averitt Express when shipping their stuff. On the whole, I have nothing but positive things to say about AMD.

[joflaig]

Here's a pic of the new Dana 60 ordered through Dr. Diff with 35 spline Strange axels, a True-Trac diff, and 4.10 gears. I'm told it should be good for up to 1000 hp. And below that is a shot of the 727 with the GV over drive unit bolted on. We ordered a new aluminum driveshaft to replace the old steel shaft.

The controls for the OD are hidden in the glove box.

[joflaig]

Lastly, I'm converting from a column shift to a floor shift. I got a new "old" steering column from Tony's Parts. They are good to work with. We were able to keep the current steering column in place and just swap-out the upper die-cast molding where the old shifter and indicator was. The red button on top of the pistol grip shifter is for the OD unit. We also customized the shifter housing. The button and indicator lights you see there are for the electric exhaust cutouts. I thought this would be neat place to put the controls for that.

[joflaig]

Well, I took the plunge today and ordered everything through Dwayne Porter. We talked at length and he came up with the combo to use. Because it's a street/strip car and because I'm having a GV overdrive unit installed it made no sense to go too nuts on the size of the cam, for example. He's saying I should make no less than 625 hp and around 640fpt. I guess we'll find out. I don't know if I will be able to sneak into the high 10s or not. The chassis, rear end and suspension should be ready for that at this point. Anyway, I think I'm going to get the right balance between street & highway drivability and the increased performance that I wanted. This is about as far I think I will go with this car, otherwise it will end becoming a pure dragster.

Here are the details:

1. Indy EZ heads, MW port size, Comp dual springs (pressure about 160 on the seat and 400 open), Comp steel retainers, Comp 10deg locks, Viton seals. PRH prep-(honed guides, re-machined valve seats (valve job), back cut valves, final wash, assembly, set spring pressures, bowls ported, chambers ported, pushrod tunnels clearanced for use with 1.6 rockers, ARP head bolts

2. Indy 440-6R valley cover with removable panel

3. Indy cast alum. valve covers

4. Cometic head gaskets, Indy valve cover and intake manifold gaskets, Fel-Pro cam swap gasket kit.

5. Harland Sharp rocker kit, 1.6 ratio

6. Comp solid flat tappet cam, plasma nitrided, with EDM lifters (duration 255/260, lift a little over 600)

7. Comp checking pushrod (engine shop will order and machine rods from Smith Bros.)

8. Indy 440-2D intake manifold, opened to MW size, plenum divider reduced

He said the compression would probably be about 10.8:1. He's not going to mill the heads for 11:1, didn't think for my purposes it would make a great deal of difference and at 10.8:1 there is slightly less need to worry about detonation problems. The Proform 950 carb I have now would be fine, he said.

For the valve covers I'll have the engine shop put in breathers and baffles, I guess the "K&N air filter" setup, basically. Someone had suggested hoses and a canister. Not sure of the advantage there.

The other thing was I'll be able to change out the rev limiter chip for a 7000k.

I'm also having them put a 440 source 1/4" girdle on the bottom. I don't know if an argument can be had about the necessity of doing that, but it surely can't hurt anything. The main caps are billet.

It will be 3-4 weeks before the speed shop gets everything and another week for them to put it together and get it on the dyno. It is a pain coordinating between two engine builders, and I hope there are no issues.

Ron, if you're reading this, I'm interested in that 9.5" Dynamic Torque converter. Do you still have it?

[six-tee-nine]

If you don't mind me asking, what does a set of these heads with that Harland sharp rocker stuff set you back trough dwayne Porter?

[Lostsheep]

What a great build....awesome!!

[firefighter3931]

That's a great plan of attack.....should make gobs of power and pull hard up top ! 

John, i'll send ya a PM on the converter 


Ron