Product review : engine building and tuning DVD

[troy.70R/T]

Well I just got the DVD and watched it. WOW tons and tons of great information. I have a lot of things that I want to try on my cars now. Really cleared up a lot of questions that I have about timing, carb tuning and the ORDER in which everything should be done. I will need to watch the DVD several times before I get started on anything but I am real excited to start trying to finally solve some of the issues that I have wiht some of my cars. Thanks For the Great video Wayne. Please post or send me a PM when you get the Carb DVD done. Consider the first DVD SOLD. Troy.

[Steve P.]

Sorry Troy. I laid claim to the first copy ages ago.. 

[Belgium R/T -68]

I hope I will get some great tips to make my start-up a succes

Thanks Wayne

Per

[troy.70R/T]

That's ok Steve I'll be happy with the Second DVD.

[Belgium R/T -68]

  DVD arived.

Wayne, the trick about checking if you have spark before start-up, is that also valid for electronic ignition or only pointdistributor?

Per

[Big Squeeze]

DVD arived.

Wayne, the trick about checking if you have spark before start-up, is that also valid for electronic ignition or only pointdistributor?

Per

Yep, that works with electronic ignition too  .......If you think about it, that's all your motor is doing......turning that shaft.........and, no, the distributor doesn't need to be grounded.......  

[Belgium R/T -68]

Great Concerning the oilpressure check, why is it important to run the drillmachine counterclockwise like the engine turns?
Just curious.

Per

[Big Squeeze]

Great Concerning the oilpressure check, why is it important to run the drillmachine counterclockwise like the engine turns?
Just curious.

Per

If you don't turn the oil pump the same way as the distributor turns, then the oil won't pump oil from the pan through the engine, it'll just suck oil from the engine and pump it into the pan, which won't amount to very much oil, and it won't build any pressure that way.........

[Competition Wedge Engines]

I also am stocking Waynes videos here in Syracuse. Same deal, free shipping. This is an excellent video and I can assure you all, you'll learn something from it.

If I can be of help, please email me at compwegderacing@aol.com.

Thank you

Todd

[R2]

I went thru the DVD,,,,,bought it at Monster Mopar ........

I think i have some work to do on my distributor and carb.......

I pulled it apart,,and checked some things........

current setup...(which i dont like)
Idle in PARK around 1500-1600 (too high)  
Idle in Drive around 1000-900
Timing (38* initial and total),,,,acting like it is locked out.
Vacuum 13 in park,,,,,6-7 in drive (foot on brake sitting in driveway)

I pulled the distributor apart,,,and noted i have ONE spring in there,,,,,( i guess this would explain the "locked" out issue )

Motor is a 496 stroker, 850 DP, E heads, 10.5:1 pump gas car, solid cam 597 lift/263 duration Ultradyne.

The other thing is,,,,i doubt i am running off the idle circuit on the car,,,,,the butterflys have been drilled to "help" things.....but i bet the transfer slot is exposed more than it should be..........

PV' in the front is a 4.5, rear 6.5
Jet's in front are 73, rear is 76

Going to start with the distributor first,,,,the car starts fine currently,,,,,with 38* of timing even in hot weather

Question: Should i leave the distributor "locked" out ? since the car starts ok ?? ( ie,,,run 38* initial)

Question: Is it "bad" to run just ONE spring ?,,,,

Any comments on the vacumm readings i am getting ?

If i try and drop the idle speed below the current setting,,,,the car will die when it is pulled down into park.

[Big Squeeze]

Does the timing back up when you put it in gear? or does it stay locked out?

That motor will like a lot of initial timing, but I don't like to run any more than I have to.......It's not bad to run one spring, but how it is now, it may be cranking with less timing and then when the RPM comes up to neutral idle RPM, the timing goes all the way to 38*........On a race only deal, that's not really bad, but for something that's street driven, you don't want to run any more timing than you need.......

On the vacuum readings, 6-7* is normal with a motor like that with that much cam.......but, like I mentioned, make sure the timing isn't retarding when you put it into gear........

[R2]

Thanks Wayne,
UPDATE: ( i made some changes before i saw your post )

I put a second spring in the distributor,,,,"med" size,,,,(now with 2 springs)

Readings are now as follows

Idle in park 1100 (down from 1600)
Idle in drive 900 (almost wants to stall,,,but doesnt)
Initial timing aprox 15* (down from 38*)
Total 38-39
Vacuum in park 8 (down from 15)
Vacuum in drive 4 (down from 6-7)

I did check the timing in park and then in drive,,,,,it stays at approx 15*

( i didnt think to check it with the one spring.. )

Wondering if i should try and get more initial timing in it ? ( maybe a "lighter" second spring ?? )

Wondering what a good vacuum reading will be,,,,,without running it locked out ??

Do i keep throwing timing ( ie,,,initial) at it ? ( to try and get the vacuum up ? )

Once i get the distributor where i want it,,,i assume i should start looking at the power valve's,,,,based on my vacuum readings

(any issues with running 2 different size PV's ? ,,, i have a 4.5 in the front now,,,and 6.5 in the rear).

thanks Wayne.
Doug

[Big Squeeze]

Doug,

Yes, keep putting more initial timing in it and resetting the idle RPM to where you want it to idle........You're going to reach of point of minimum return......See what that timing number is and then curve the dizzy so it'll have that number at idle, in gear and in neutral, and then have the total you want, all in before where your converter stalls.........

Don't change the springs to put more initial timing in it.....keep advancing it by hand 2 degrees at a time, and resetting the idle RPM, until it stops making any large RPM gains............

I wouldn't worry about the vacuum number, just make it as high as you can with the least amount of timing, AND it start good, which yours is........

On the PV's, drive the car with a vacuum gauge in hand and read the vacuum at different cruise speeds........Put PV's in it that are about 2 numbers below your lowest cruise vacuum reading.......

[R2]

keep advancing it by hand 2 degrees at a time, and resetting the idle RPM, until it stops making any large RPM gains............

RPM gains ? or vacuum gains.....

also,,,,run same number PV's front and back ?

How do you know what spring combination to run,,,,ie,,,,2 medium,,,vs 1 light 1 medium,,etc,,,, is it the "spring curve" or timing curve "all in by",,,,that determines that answer ?
I figured a lighter spring would put some more initial in it  ? I now on the DVD you mention trying to run as stiff a spring as possible ?, does that provide more stability to the timing,,,,

thanks for taking the time to answer,,,hopefully others that bought the DVD will start experimenting with their stuff as well.....and learn from my fumbling around...lol
Doug

[Big Squeeze]

If the RPM gains, then the vacuum will gain too.........

Yes, I run the same PV's, front and back.......

I always start with the stiffest springs.........If you use weaker springs to get more initial, then when you put it into gear, the timing will back up (since it works off centrifigul advance) because when the RPM comes down, the springs will pull the timing back, and then the motor will idle even lower..........so that's not a good way to do that.......Figure out how much initial it wants.........Then curve the dizzy so it has that for idle and the total it wants (typically, 34- 38*, depending on quench)........Then, run the stiffest springs that bring the total all in above 2,800, or no higher than what your converter stalls the motor at (with a conveter that stalls above 2,800)...........

Fumbling is how I learned......

[R2]

Thanks Wayne,,,,
I am going to put some stiffer springs in it,,,,and work on the plate,,,,,,then i can go from there to set the timing curve,,,
I found a old tech article,,,,,thought it might help.(ie me)...it is in 3 parts due to size.................(also,,,,if this is detracting from the theme of the original thread,,,,maybe a seperate thread can be started,,,,) thanks again Wayne for shedding some light on this stuff. 

"Timing is everything:"
[Reformatted and edited from: MoPar Muscle Magazine April '98]

Anyone who's into wrench turning on their MoPar is familiar with timing. Open the hood, loosen the clamp, and give the distributor a twist   OK, all done. Well, that isn't necessarily so. Given a stock engine with a stock distributor, used in the manner the engineers envisioned, and you probably won't be too far off. Throw in a hotter cam, bolt up that pretty Holley carb, toss in the Electronic Ignition distributor scored at the local salvage yard and the picture changes.
The hard fact is, once the original combination has been modified, there's no reason to assume the distributor's calibrations are anywhere near correct. So, what's to do? To zero in on the answer, lets take a brief look at what's going on under the cap. The distributor has two basic functions: one (primary side) is to signal the coil to spark at equal intervals, four times per crank revolution for a V8 engine, and the other (secondary side) is to send those sparks in the correct sequence to the engine's cylinders.
Plug the spark plug wires into the correct hole of the distributor cap and the secondary side of the distributor takes care of itself. The primary side, however, has to trigger the spark to happen at the most advantageous moment as a piston is coming up on the compression stroke. This is timing, which is really nothing but the phasing of the spark in relation to the crankshaft and piston position. With an old industrial Hemi set up to turn a water pump at a constant 2,100 rpm, the ignition timing can be fixed at a certain ideal point, since it works at a constant load and RPM. On the flip side, that 'Cuda in the driveway needs to idle cleanly at 900 rpm, scream through the traps at 6,500 and take you to the 'Nats, while (hopefully) delivering reasonably trouble free and economical cruising.
Combustion chamber shape, cylinder pressure, fuel octane, temperature, RPM, load, exhaust scavenging, air density and a laundry list of other factors affect the timing requirement of an engine. The stock distributor has two weapons in its arsenal to cope with the various timing requirements: centrifugal and vacuum advance.
Centrifugal or mechanical advance is, as the name implies, a mechanical device in which flyweights spinning with the distributor shaft swing out at one end against spring tension as RPM increases   the result of centrifugal force. The flyweights engage slots in a plate at the base of the upper distributor shaft, causing the reluctor (distributor cam) to advance the spark. The length of the plate's slots control the maximum amount of centrifugal advance allowed what racers and engine builders refer to as the amount of timing "in the plate." Spring tension controls how fast, or at what RPM, the advance comes in. Combine the two, and you have the advance curve.
While centrifugal advance varies timing strictly by RPM, 3,000 rpm at wide-open throttle on your local dragstrip's launch pad doesn't call for the same timing as 3,000 rpm on US Hwy 99. For increased efficiency, vacuum advance is a way to vary the timing in accordance to load. Linked to the distributor's pickup (or breaker) plate, the vacuum advance uses a spring loaded vacuum diaphragm to pull the plate in against the reluctor' s (distributor cam's) rotation to advance the timing. On the dragstrip, with your right foot mashed to the firewall, the engine sees full load for the whole 1,320 feet. So, purpose built racecars and racing distributors don't need vacuum advance. However, on a streetcar it is a must for maximum efficiency, plug life and economy.
The engineers did a pretty good job balancing the varied requirements over a broad range of applications with the stock advance curve. In a high performance/modified application, changes to the ignition timing will optimize performance while improving drivability. Problem is, few of us have a distributor machine sitting in the back of the garage. So, how do you check the advance curve and baseline and modify the distributor? Open the hood and use that 400 hp distributor machine sitting between the fenders.
Actually, although it's kind of a pain, setting up the distributor live on the engine does have some advantages over using the trusty Sun bench. Primarily, with the distributor live you can see first hand how the engine responds to various tweaks.
Here's the lowdown   Four steps to setting up the centrifugal curve: Baseline the distributor. Figure out the idle initial timing requirement and idle RPM. Calculate and set the amount of mechanical advance (how much "in the plate"). Set up the advance rate for your combination. Only after the centrifugal advance curve, which is the "go fast" part of the job, is done should attention be turned to the vacuum advance.

[R2]

BASELINING
Setting out to modify the advance curve without knowing what you've got is like picking up a date in a smoky Vegas lounge at closing time. The modifications may work out, but you might be disappointed with what you end up with. You need to check the RPM at which the centrifugal advance begins to kick in, how much it advances for an incremental RPM increase and at what RPM it has finished advancing or is "all in." To do this, you need only a timing light, tach and degreed damper. Mark the damper yourself as described in the MoPar Engine Book or stick on the MoPar Performance timing tape.  Use graph paper to plot the point to generate a nifty looking curve.  It will give you something to hang on your fridge besides your three-year olds' artwork.
With the marked damper, the timing can be read up to 60º using the  0  mark on the timing tab as a reference. Disconnect and block the vacuum advance and read the timing at idle. Bump up the RPM while reading the timing until the advance just begins to kick in. Record the RPM. If it's right off idle speed, try backing down the idle and start again. Continue to increase the RPM in even steps of 500 rpm, recording the timing until it no longer advances. Zero in on the exact RPM at which the timing is "all in." Subtract the initial timing and you've got the centrifugal advance curve. The total timing reading at maximum advance minus the initial advance is the total amount of centrifugal advance, or how much is "in the plate." If you're mathematically challenged like us, you can set the initial timing at TDC and read the centrifugal curve directly without having to subtract the initial setting.
INITIAL TIMING REQUIREMENTS
So, you put in that hairy cam and single plane manifold. The combination runs like a scalded cat, but it doesn't idle worth a darn. Advancing the distributor smoothes out the idle some. However, if the timing is bumped up, the death bell of detonation begins to toll, so you back off the distributor, curse the guy who sold you the cam and live with the rough idle. What's happened, among other things, is that the long duration has killed off low speed cylinder pressure, and the overlap dilutes the intake charge at idle. More advance helps on both counts.
The therapy here is to find the best initial advance for the engine combination and worry about detonation later. Disconnect the vacuum advance. Pull back the initial timing to a relatively low setting. Set the idle speed to where the cam needs to idle (as close to the desired final idle speed as possible) and hook up a vacuum gauge and tach. Adjust the mixture to the leaner side of the sweet spot, giving the highest RPM and vacuum and note the readings. On auto trans cars, you can also check and record the vacuum and RPM drop when the trans is popped into gear. Now, bump up the timing 21/2 degrees. Vacuum and RPM should both jump up substantially. Back off the idle speed to where it was before and fine-tune the mixture again. You're after the same RPM as the previous test, but at a higher initial timing setting. Once set, record the vacuum reading and the in gear checks with an automatic. Both should improve. Continue advancing the distributor in 2 1/2 degree steps, resetting the idle speed/mixture and checking for improvements.
Generally, the biggest gains will come from the earlier tests, reaching a point of diminishing returns. Analyze the results and choose the final initial timing setting. Pick the lowest timing setting consistent with improvements in vacuum (and in gear idle qualities with automatics), without getting too greedy for that last ½ inch of mercury (hg.) of vacuum. Every degree added to the initial timing is later going to be stolen from the centrifugal advance. In other words, don't trade 10º more advance (plus the hard starting and potential detonation) for a 1/2 inch increase in vacuum if the prior 10º netted a 3 hg. improvement. Typical street settings should range from 8 16 degrees, depending mostly on cammyness.

[R2]

HOW MUCH TO PUT "IN THE PLATE"
With the distributor baselined, we know how much centrifugal advance it will give us. Also, we now have set the initial advance for the best idle quality, which in many cases will be a significant jump from stock. Add the two and we're usually looking at too much total timing. As a rule of thumb, hot street MoPar small blocks will like to run about 35º total, with B RB engines wanting 38 degrees, fuel quality permitting. These numbers can be fine tuned only on the dyno or dragstrip.
Lets say, on a small block, we end up with 12 1/2º initial timing and our baseline test showed 34º in the plate. By my new calculations, we're looking at 46 1/2º total, or about 11 1/2º worth of piston melting over advance. In this example, we're going to have to pull the 11 I/2º of centrifugal advance out of the plate. This is done by removing the plate and shortening the length of its slots, usually by welding or brazing at the outside stop and filing to shape.
SETTING THE CURVE
The advance rate is controlled by the tension of the advance springs. With lighter springs, the faster the advance. Simple, huh? Actually, setting the curve portion is the trickiest part of the game. The reason is simple   no two engines are likely to want precisely the same advance rate. While up to now it's been a little addition and subtraction, which even we could handle, the advance rate will depend on everything: Load, traction, tire size, [converter] stall, octane, temperature, gear ratio, cylinder pressure, exhaust scavenging efficiency   just for starters. Also, the best way to figure out the ideal advance rate requires a dyno. The good news is we can use the good old rule of thumb and trial and error system to get it.
Typically, for high performance street/drag type applications, the established rule of thumb is to have the advance "all in" by about 2,000 rpm. The most common stock spring sets used a light and heavy spring with a little bit of a trick. The heavy spring had an extended attachment eye, keeping it from kicking in until about the last one third of advancement. With the stock arrangement, the light spring does all the work for the majority of the advance, and is actually a relatively fast advancing spring. The heavy spring gives up the last few degrees gradually, up to as much as 4,500 rpm. The old trick of tossing the heavy spring and running just the single light one, really just adds an extra quantity of advance to the already quick early start.
MoPar Performance markets a set of very light springs, which, when installed in a production distributor, provides a lightning quick advance curve. Unfortunately, it violates rule of thumb number two: Keep the centrifugal advance away from the idle RPM. By having the advance kicking in at or below idle, the engine idle speed will tend to hunt or hang up to a higher speed as the timing kicks up and down. With an automatic, this problem is even worse, with idle speed and smoothness artificially boosted by the centrifugal advance. Toss it in gear and the normal pull down of RPM also will take down the advance, retarding the timing and pulling the rug out from under the engine. All of these erratic idle woes are the reason to provide a buffer of a couple hundred RPM from idle speed for the centrifugal advance curve kick in.
The bottom line is, work with the above two rules of thumb: Delay the advance curve if full throttle detonation is a problem, and speed it up if the combination can take it and trap speed shows it's the correct direction to go. Good things never come easy. Use the baselining technique above to map the advance curve for any spring change.
VACUUM ADVANCE
Only once the centrifugal advance curve is sorted out should the vacuum advance be dialed in

[R2]

UPDATE;;;;;;;;;;

I welded up one of the slots,,now running two springs instead of one,,,,,I now have about 30* initial,,,and 38* total,,,,

Idle in park is around 1000-1050 !! ( down from 1500-1600 )

Idle in drive is around 900

Vacuum in park is 9-10,,,,,,and about 5-6+ in drive.....(wish i had more,,,,but the thing has a big cam,,,but it should do)

I think it will continue to improve once i tear into the carb and change some things.....I checked my vacuum while at cruise,,,,the LOWEST reading i get is 9.5-10,,,,,,,,,right now i have a 4.5 PV in front and a 6.5 in the back,,,,,thinking i should put in a 7.5 in front and back,,,,,,,,

bottom line,,,buy the DVD,,,,and it will help provide some good tips on tuning,,,,,I just did it,,,and it was not bad,,,,a bit of trial and error,,,but definite results.....

Doug

[Purple440]

Wayne,

Excellent video, just got done watching it.  I really appreciate the answers to the more simple questions that don't assume a bunch of expertise from the viewer. 

Especially on how to set the initial timing.  With my Mallory/MSD combo I can get mine to keep picking up RPM past 22 degrees but I start to hear the valve train clatter so I back off.  Starts great at 17 initial.  Not sure why I can still pick up RPM, but I'll check the vacuum like you suggested in regards to diminishing returns.

- Doug

[Big Squeeze]

Cool........I'm glad you guys are liking it.........Looking back, there are a couple areas where I wish I'd  spent a little more time, but I was on a deadline when filiming and had a LOT to cover........... Overall, I think it came out pretty well though........

Wayne

[resq302]

Wayne,

Pretty well?  Hell, I think you nailed it with this video!

[Dans 68]

Wayne, if you think there were a couple areas you could have spent a bit more time upon, you could always just put your thoughts down here...it could then be sticked for all to read.    I've watched it twice now and plan a few more times when I get some time to relax....

Dan

[Purple440]

Cool........I'm glad you guys are liking it.........Looking back, there are a couple areas where I wish I'd  spent a little more time, but I was on a deadline when filiming and had a LOT to cover........... Overall, I think it came out pretty well though........

Wayne

You said in the video that you'll spend more time on carbs in the next video...So when is the next video?? 

[Big Squeeze]

Wayne, if you think there were a couple areas you could have spent a bit more time upon, you could always just put your thoughts down here...it could then be sticked for all to read.    I've watched it twice now and plan a few more times when I get some time to relax....

Dan

Yeah, that's just it.........It took me about 6 months to write the "script".........we filmed it ALL in 2 days..........and spent 2 months editing..........It was a mad thrash to get everything set up and filmed in 2 days..........I'd like to have spent more time on stabbing a distributor and firing a motor for the first time............I could have easily spent another day or two just filiming and using more camera angles............

Looking back, I wouldn't have talked about what amperage to hone with...........I'd hate to see a situation where a novice goes to a machine shop and tells them how to hone..........but, I was trying stress how important machine work really is..........

In the carb section...........after if was all finished......I'd sent a copy to the guys at Barry Grant and they emailed me and said that there are situations where having a power valve, that's rated higher than the vacuum signal at idle, can actually make a carb dribble fuel out of the booster at idle.......I've never experienced that...............and neither has Dwayne Porter........so I wish I'd have left myself a loophole in the video right there.........

Also.......I talk really fast.......and most of the video had to be slowed down so it would be understandable For example, the intro is running at 70% of normal speed.........so, I really need to work on slowing my speech down............ I can talk and be understandable, but when I talk about something that I'm passionate about, I get excited and and start spooling up......


Other than that, and obviously, the echo that can be heard, I was really happy with it.........Knowing what I know now, I'll have either a sound board, or mic on my shirt next time..........I can honestly say I learned a LOT on this vid...................

Wayne