On the topic of cheap fuel injection

[defiance]

It's basically an open-source ECU development project.  Which has many implications -good: 1) VERY inexpensive ECU (you just buy parts, costs less than $300), 2) LOTS of features, more added all the time, and usually incorporating them is simply a matter of downloading firmware, and bad: -1) you build the unit (personally, I liked this, since I trust my solder work over a machine any day ) though, you can buy them assembled from some sources now, and -2) it does require a bit of research to put together parts for the setup... though I'll be happy to make part recommendations if anyone's interested

Anyway, it's definitely more difficult, no question... but the capabilities are awesome!

[Rolling_Thunder]

Well I assume it is a speed density type system ?  What are the benefits of SD over MAF systems besides being easier to make and cheaper to build? I know MAF systems are somewhat self adapting where SD systems need to be recalibrated for changes such as cam and airflow....      So if i used the mega squirt system would i need a laptop to tweak it ?  I would imagine so....    unless i am of coarse wrong.  I have no problem building a system myself, it doesnt seem to be very difficult and plus it would give me something to do....     

[Ghoste]

Something to do?  You know RT, you don't strike me as being someone with a whole lot of time on his hands?

[Rolling_Thunder]

well...    was that saccastic or serious ?  Well i dont sleep that much and i enjoy building things....   

[Ghoste]

No, it was serious.  It just seems like you always have something on the go.

[Rolling_Thunder]

well im a full time college student, work at least 40 hours a week, and have a small personal life but hey...   im up for challenges....    if i sit and no nothing i go literally insane and get weird little skin rashes....    dont ask...   doctors say its "nerves"    oh well...     

[doctorpimp]

Obligatory; I see an EFI discussion, I gotta post

One thing I noted about that email was the "you supply the manifold" bit...  The manifold is a pretty notable exclusion, since the ONLY manufacturer I'm aware of making port injection manifolds for bb's is Edelbrock, and they adamantly informed me they would not sell them outside of their kit. 
So, not only must you add the price of a manifold on to that, you must also add the price of fab work.  If you can do it yourself, great; if not, for reference, a local shop here charged me around $300 for bungs and fabrication.  Might be steep, might not, who knows.

They install the bungs for the injectors in the manifold of your choice.  That's why you have to send them the manifold.
Megasquirt sounds cool...I'd never heard of it before.  I'm checking it out...

[dkn1997]

If your'e feeling really saucy, you could PM "Jerry" over at moparts.  He has lot's of experience with megasquirt controllers.  He can even assemble the controller for you and mod your choice of intake, then you would just have to source the throttle body, fuelrails, pump, etc....
He could help you pick out what you need.

[Ghoste]

So for moment, everyone agrees that the Megasquirt system is the one that most falls under the topic of "cheap" fuel injection? 

[doctorpimp]

So for moment, everyone agrees that the Megasquirt system is the one that most falls under the topic of "cheap" fuel injection? 

I'd say.  It's worth looking into!

[Rolling_Thunder]

So for moment, everyone agrees that the Megasquirt system is the one that most falls under the topic of "cheap" fuel injection? 

I'd say.  It's worth looking into!

I agree....    sure $300 for the computer isnt bad...   but price everything else out...  i figure all together using all new parts around $1700...        think about it....   

wire
computer (ECU)
fuel pump
fuel pressure regulator
fuel return line
fuel rails
machining of fuel rails
fuel injectors
connectors
o2 sensors
throttle body(s)
intake manifold
fuel injector bungs
installation of bungs to manifold....

all these things add up - but yes if you wanted to it would classify as cheap fuel injection...    one of the most affordable out there i've seen

[dkn1997]

deleted by dkn

[Rolling_Thunder]

yes - MAF is more complicated as well...     also there was a little more needed - mostly dealing with the distributor....   

[defiance]

wow, this could simplify things...  I was going to post this:
http://www.auto-nomics.com/cgi-bin/showresults?a=detail&part=10850-002-D
which is about the cheapest you'll EVER find a 4-bbl compatible throttle body, and it's 750cfm default (though it can be modified to supply between 500 and 1000 pretty easily, according to the docs), and costs $75..
But they just added a new product, this - if you're thinking about throttle body injectors, this would definitely help out:
http://www.auto-nomics.com/cgi-bin/showresults?a=detail&part=12168-001
which is just an amazing little combo...  Throttle body, Fuel regulator, fuel rails, TPS, and costs $375...  No injectors, though, and you'd need somewhere around 300-lb/hr (40-lb or so per cyl) for a bb, so that's probably around $250 (based on 4 of these for the tb - http://www.racetronix.com/17113743FM.html or 8 of these for the manifold - http://www.racetronix.com/621010.html
Anyway, I have to admit I had to try several different configurations before I found one I really liked, but that means I've messed around enough I can give some pretty in-depth info on all the things to avoid (the things I messed up ).  Anybody wants more info, feel free to send me an email (defiancecp@gmail.com)

[Rolling_Thunder]

yeah - but I would much rather have a ECU controlled MPFI system....     you can get a Commander 950 system Throttle body injection for around $1000  and it has EVERYTHING you need...       i personally would go MPFI as it seems to be a better system

[doctorpimp]

Yeah, I agree.
If I'm going to do it, it'll be MPFI.

[Ghoste]

Same here.  I generally think of throttle bodies as electric carburetors.  Superior yes, but still leaving a lot of potential on the table.

[dkn1997]

If you have a driver/cruiser type of car, then I actually like the throttle body systems.  I ran a Holley Projection system and I loved the throttle response and part throttle driveability of it.  The huge weak link was with the computer.  If I were to do throttle body again, I would probably use the one from the autonomics with a megasquirt controller.  you could probably do that system, with a megasquirt 1 controller, for under 1000  bucks. 

[defiance]

Agreed on the holley ecu's!!  My system actually started out as a megasquirt ECU controlling a holley Pro-Jection throttle body.  When my dad had the car, he put the pro-jection on it, but the old holley ECU *really* stunk when it worked right, and it stopped doing even that after a bit ...  Of course, they've changed a lot, so they may be better now.  So, that's how I got it, good tb, bad ecu
Anyway, when I changed to port injection, it wasn't necessarily just for the advantages...  a couple of the injectors on the holley tb died (shouldn't be considered a reflection of the product, they were stored for a while without cleaning out the fuel first, so it ruined them), and because it was an older TB, it would have cost around $500 to fix it (the injectors were no longer made, so I had to buy another injector tower, which in turn wasn't compatible with my old injectors, so I'd have had to replace even the good ones...)  So, I just saved that money and put it all into converting.  Still using the holley throttle body, just without injectors in it now   Throttle response definitely seems a little improved, but I can't say for certain whether it affected HP/torque...  I didn't get much actual drive time with the TB setup, and it didn't get dyno'd either way.  was going to, but that's a long story that involves me raving, so I'll stop now

[Chryco Psycho]

I am not a fan of the Projection system , we went through 4 controllers in a month the last one had no power but wouldn`t blow up so we couldn`t even get warranty

[68MoparCharger]

Because you can control the spark and fuel with a controller like the megasquirt would it be possible to cut out 4 of the pistons like the new hemi's do?

[Rolling_Thunder]

well...   that is a good question...    possibly...   all you would really have to do is not send a signal to the fuel injector and not send a spark to the cylinder....     

[dkn1997]

I am not a fan of the Projection system , we went through 4 controllers in a month the last one had no power but wouldn`t blow up so we couldn`t even get warranty

For someone like me who can tune a carb about as well as I can do brain surgery, the concept was good. But  the ecu went bad right away (bought old used system)  I was lucky enough to score an ECU of Ebay for 30 bucks and never had a problem with it again.  I ended up getting rid of it because I wanted to go faster and because I never liked the fact that you never really knew what the ECU was doing. 

[defiance]

well...   that is a good question...    possibly...   all you would really have to do is not send a signal to the fuel injector and not send a spark to the cylinder....     

Well, it's not that simple; valve action must be taken into account as well...  If it's not changed, the cylinder compression could cause too much load on the engine, reducing benefits drastically...  I'm thinking just locking exhaust cylinders open would be most effective, though I wonder if that would affect oxygen sensor readings?  (since you'd be pumping exhaust in and back out of the cylinders)...  I'd think probably not, but that would have to be considered...

Anyway, yeah, this is being discussed on the MS message boards, but I think the consensus is that it could possibly be used to control it, but upgrading the mechanics of an engine to do it would be much more difficult.

[original72]

i think someone should find a guy willing to mod and or supply manifolds for port injection and do it at a group buy price.... if i knew someone i would but......