Mitch's 69 Charger restoration -sheet metal

[green69rt]

Would you mind sharing some of the arcane knowledge of that you went over with the shop?  Money savers, missed bits, etc?

Not at all.  I'll just talk about various stuff.

We talked a lot about what to do underneath the car.  There are a combination of coating on the bottom, EDP, POR15 and some scorch marks from welding.  The frame rail connectors will get some dress up of the welds with more welding, seam sealer. I did not install torque boxes. The plan is to blast those areas that need it (not the complete bottom) and then spray a kind of elastic coating on it (I see if I can find out exactly what the product is.)  Not undercoating, then the shop will shoot a coat of mixed base and clear on top of the elastic coating, almost like single stage to save a step and some bucks.  Gives the appearance of paint but most of the protection of undercoating.  I really don't like the appearance of undercoating so this seems like a good plan.  The wheel wells will get an extra coat of regular undercoat to protect against rock chips.

Most of the passenger compartment will be shot with lizard skin.  The shop uses Lizard skin a lot so rather than force them to another product, I said OK.  This includes the ceiling.  The ceiling still has a bunch of the old adhesive that I did not want to deal with.  They will get most off then spray with the Lizard skin.  Good enough.  The trunk will get what it gets, not a big concern (single stage.) 

Still thinking about the engine bay and underneath the hood.  Temperature is a concern so the shop is working up a recommendation.

Other than that I made sure that they will take care of the outside of the car.  I specified some areas to look at including... A pillars, rockers, cowl where it meets the a pillar, sail panels, the quarter panel extensions (eyebrows.) and I said that I want to approve any extra work that will effect the panel gaps ( I really want the gaps to look good so maybe some extra money here )  The actual finish of the outside of the car is still open.  I really want it to look good but without spending a ton of money so there will probably be some blocking and then more than one coat of base and clear, still not decided.

I want to add Vintage AC to the car and they offered to weld studs to the firewall instead of putting bolts thru it to mount the heater box.  Thinking about that.

I had considered powder coating the grill/headlight frame but they did not recommend it, said prime and paint is better for the thin metal with all the sharp edges.  Sounded right so I approved.

Roof will get painted single stage, no buffing, etc.  Vinyl roof going on.  They said paint is a better protection than just primer.  Since other parts of the car will be single stage they said cost is pretty small to add the roof, I approved.

There's probably more that I don't remember off-hand.  Hope this helps.

[green69rt]

I felt that what was really important was to write down what the shop would do, what materials to use, etc.  You may have different ideas but get them down on paper!!  I worked as a project engineer in the oil industry and one thing I learned is that nobody likes surprises.  If you write it down and talk to the people doing the work (talking to the manager is not enough) then things tend to go better and you tend to avoid surprises.  We'll see how things shake out.

Oh, I also dated the sheet and signed it.  Any changes will also get signed by me and dated so there are no miss-understandings.

[Homerr]

Exactly the sort of info I was hoping for!  Would you mind talking about the money side of the paint/body work?

I think this is one of the most gray areas of restoration and one where a lot of projects get stalled.  Collectively we all seem to have some issues around the money subject and talking frankly about how much things cost.  It seems there are only anecdotal figures that I would consider low-ball numbers, or ridiculously high numbers to justify something like a $60k+ XP car.  You've done an awesome job documenting how much work you were willing to tackle and there is a good record of how nice the car is now having left for the body shop.

I know how much I spent on paint/bodywork, around $6000 back in 1994 (roof, rear window, trunk, lower quarters, inner fender, paint w/ color change), but my best friend's dad did the work at a steep discount with me adding a ton of labor to offset some of the cost (and sometimes work on some of his project cars for him).  So I don't even really know the 'true' cost of the work back then and then how to add a multiplier for inflation.

If you're up for shining some light on the subject I'd really like to hear how costs are shaking out for this stage of your resto.  Overall breakdown of estimate (vs. reality later?), shop hourly rate, materials cost, estimate of hours, time-frame, etc.  Go as broad or as narrow as you like, my goal is to help budget for my eventual second Charger project!

If you don't want to go in to it, I understand and respect the decision all the same.

[green69rt]

The shop did not give an estimate but we did talk a little.  Their rate is $65/hr. plus materials.  I did talk to the owner/manager and at our first meeting I asked him if $5000 was a ballpark number, not because I expected that low a number but just because I wanted to start that conversation.  He said probably not.  Just too much work to do. Now I think I would be happy if it came in under $10K.   He did say as long as I didn't insist on a 100 point car and start nitpicking little extras here and there that $10k may be in the ball park.  That's why I spent the time to write down everything I could think of and gave them a chance to comment.

The paint/body manager and I spent about an hour just going over the car and talking about the work list, but I consider that as $65 well spent (if they charge me for it.)

For those with more experience, you can probably give a better idea of paint cost.  I wouldn't be surprised if the paint came in at $1000 or even more..

[Charger-Bodie]

The shop did not give an estimate but we did talk a little.  Their rate is $65/hr. plus materials.  I did talk to the owner/manager and at our first meeting I asked him if $5000 was a ballpark number, not because I expected that low a number but just because I wanted to start that conversation.  He said probably not.  Just too much work to do. Now I think I would be happy if it came in under $10K.  He did say as long as I didn't insist on a 100 point car and start nitpicking little extras here and there that $10k may be in the ball park.  That's why I spent the time to write down everything I could think of and gave them a chance to comment.

The paint/body manager and I spent about an hour just going over the car and talking about the work list, but I consider that as $65 well spent (if they charge me for it.)

For those with more experience, you can probably give a better idea of paint cost.  I wouldn't be surprised if the paint came in at $1000 or even more..

You will likely be looking at triple that in paint&materials.

[green69rt]

The shop did not give an estimate but we did talk a little.  Their rate is $65/hr. plus materials.  I did talk to the owner/manager and at our first meeting I asked him if $5000 was a ballpark number, not because I expected that low a number but just because I wanted to start that conversation.  He said probably not.  Just too much work to do. Now I think I would be happy if it came in under $10K.  He did say as long as I didn't insist on a 100 point car and start nitpicking little extras here and there that $10k may be in the ball park.  That's why I spent the time to write down everything I could think of and gave them a chance to comment.

The paint/body manager and I spent about an hour just going over the car and talking about the work list, but I consider that as $65 well spent (if they charge me for it.)

For those with more experience, you can probably give a better idea of paint cost.  I wouldn't be surprised if the paint came in at $1000 or even more..

You will likely be looking at triple that in paint&materials.

Dang!!!

[Generalkiwi]

Hey Guys,

Yeah it would be great to talk numbers with others, especially for those about to head into a venture like a 69' Dodge Charger Restore , i myself am planning to do one soon and have a car lined up that i am looking at restoring (haven't purchased yet, still getting it assessed) . The figures i have been quoted are rough at this stage as the car hasn't been properly inspected. I will update the figures after inspection and hopefully have a more detailed estimate of what it will cost to bring it back to life.

My estimate is in NZ dollars (as that is where the restore will take place.) But the figures below are converted into US dollars to make things easier to compare.

Purchase cost of Car $14K
Panel/Paint man hourly rate = $49
Paint = $10.5K  (includes full rotisserie restore, spraying the underside of the car, boot, interior/exterior and engine bay and extra 01 and confederate flag graphics, this car is being restored as a General Lee)
Panel Work = $23K

Total without engine and trans $47.5K US

The car is in a pretty rough state but im told has all the parts. So add on top of that any replacement parts if required and then costs to re-build the motor and trans. (i am still looking into the cost of this)

So a total cost of $47.5K US just to buy the car and restore its looks, not cheap to do! , but then again we do it for the love of these old cars don't we. Would be interesting to compare dollar figure cost of a 69' restore with anyone if they want to share ? (i can start another thread for this if need be as i don't want to hijack your build thread mate!  , just let me know )

Cheers
Kiwi

[davidcam69]

Hello, this is my first post but I've been watching this forum for awhile even before joining. I couldn't resist putting in my  2 cents on this thread because this is exactly what I am going thru right now. I bought back my 69 RT that my dad had ordered new in 68. Like an idiot I sold it in 83 for 2000 and bought it back in 2009 for 8000. I'm not wealthy and worked hard for my money and do almost all my own service and repairs. This all seems like alot of money to me but I know I was lucky to get my #s matching Charger back for 8k. I'm 61 and retired a year and half ago thinking I'm going get all my projects done after retiring. Not so, not enough time for a busy grandpa that rides, boats and enjoys all the family gigs. The Charger is on the top or my bucket list. I rebiult the engine and drivetrain but unsure how to go about bringing back the body. I want it to be right but not being a bodyman or paintor I did not feel like expermenting on my Charger, I've got two other cars for that. I also want this car done in my lifetime. So I got on the web looking for a restoration shop to find out what I was in for and if I 'could even afford it. Found a shop four hours away that looked interesting and was pro Mopar. Took my wife with me. Now you would think that would'nt be a good idea but it was the best decision ever. Not a big or fancy shop but looked all business. Ok now lets get to the piont (sorry for my long winded story). With looking at pics of the car, which he didn't seem to interested in, it was always" if you want to do it right and do it one time" this is what you do. I like the way he thought and me thinking how to save money and taking a short cut or doing some things myself just wasn't fitting in. He didn't hold back. He said you could put 20k in body before paint and materials. 3000 in paint materials. Made my knees weak. Thinking this was some crazy money and wondering how my wife was holding up I then ask what process was and how he charged. You put $500 down to hold your spot.  If you change your mind he would refund your 500 no problem.They charge $55 an hour. Then you pay him $5000 and when that's gone you pay $5000 and when that's gone.......well you get it. Also you can buy or bring in your own parts to help save you money. This was January and said he could get me in sometime in June. About then my wife pipes up and says "will you take a check" ...liked to fell over, never even discussed it privately. Stripped the car down and made frame castors. Got the call and delivered it on Weds. Looked like Mitch's minus the nice metal work. Saved some money stripping it and removing all undercoating and seam sealer. They were surprised the car was in such good shape. Looks like trunk(already removed), rear window work, tail panel, lower rear quarters, and LF inner fender(replaced). They got right on it.       

This isn't for the faint of heart. I commend anyone like Mitch who does their own work with such skill, that kind of talent and self satisfaction is priceless.   I figure I will have 30,000 (low end) to 50,000(high end) when all said and done and that's not counting my hundreds of hours putting it back together.  If this wasn't my dad's-my car, I probably would not restore it. I would spend less money and time and find a good resto for less money.   

Mitch, since Generalkiwi brought it up I thought I would share my money story. Hope I didn't intrude with my long ass story.

Dave




2     

[charge69]

I commend both of you for committing such a large amount of money to restore your Charger but, the reality is, if you are going to farm out most of the bodywork and paint, it gets expensive real quick. Be prepared to go "over budget" on the restoration as it always ends up being more expensive than you thought!  Don't let that get you down or stop the restoration. When almost finished (they never are really finished) you will have a "unicorn" of a musclecar to enjoy!

[Generalkiwi]

Hey Guys,

Don't post anymore in here about figures, as i feel like we are hi-jacking Mitch's build thread, i'll start another thread and can we all post about figures in there, so with that said, back to you Mitch and your 69' build!!

Cheers
Kiwi

[fy469rtse]

Yep back to Mitch  thread  guys all cars are going to be varing prices depending on what's needed and the work , finish needed, a lot of us are waiting for Mitch to post photos , ask him after its painted and how much extra it cost and why

[Generalkiwi]

Yep back to Mitch  thread  guys all cars are going to be varing prices depending on what's needed and the work , finish needed, a lot of us are waiting for Mitch to post photos , ask him after its painted and how much extra it cost and why

Yep good point, i have started a new thread here if anyone wants to comment further on costs for a restore.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?topic=104446.new;topicseen#new

Mitch if you would please share with us panel/paint costs as you progress and any pitfalls that come along , that would be very much appreciated, if you choose not to then we all understand.

thanks mate!

[green69rt]

OK, I'm back from vacation.  I really like reading through the replies and I really don't mind everyone putting in their  .  I will have more to add on costs.  I'll try to be up front about them.  Few, if any are willing to share that part because it's so easy to look like a chump or that you're not getting a good deal.  More later, We got home from Oregon about 3 hours ago so it takes some time to catch up with things.

[fy469rtse]

  how could you go away and leave her in the care of others lol ?

[djcarguy]

Yeah, the garage feels strange because of the big space where the charger was.

I'll be taking a little vacation to Oregon, then I'm going to clear out my working area and paint the floor.

WHATS IN OREGON???FEW dozon mopar guys an  graveyard cars by me,in springfield,,,, wildcat auto wrecker mopar yard near portland and  american classic cross river in vancouver wash,, an number of dc.com members near there.     Have ya got family out here or just fun too see a great state,lol..

     will bee great to see your 69 with paint and headed back together again. safe travels.watch out for us redneck ,hillbillies on the west best coast,hahaha...   DJ 

[green69rt]

We drove up and down the coast, stayed in Cannon Beach, Bandon and Yachats (I think that is pronounced Yahots??)   We wanted to get away from the Houston heat and we did.  Last day was in Portland and, wouldn't you know it, they had their hottest day ever (95 F).  But really a beautiful coast, rugged, lots of crashing waves, magnificent trees.

But, what's with the 55 MPH speed limits everywhere?

[green69rt]

Got the driver fender and took it to the shop yesterday along with some odds and ends.   No progress while I was gone but I didn't expect any.  Hopefully, they will start on it next week.  Waiting is already hard and the car has only been gone 2 weeks!

[green69rt]

Hello, this is my first post but I've been watching this forum for awhile even before joining. I couldn't resist putting in my  2 cents on this thread because this is exactly what I am going thru right now.       

This isn't for the faint of heart. I commend anyone like Mitch who does their own work with such skill, that kind of talent and self satisfaction is priceless.   I figure I will have 30,000 (low end) to 50,000(high end) when all said and done and that's not counting my hundreds of hours putting it back together.  If this wasn't my dad's-my car, I probably would not restore it. I would spend less money and time and find a good resto for less money.   

Mitch, since Generalkiwi brought it up I thought I would share my money story. Hope I didn't intrude with my long ass story.

Dave     

I kind of chopped your post up but I have to agree with a lot that you said.   This is a hobby for me so cost vs value was never an issue.  How much I will spend over the life of the project is an issue (does that make sense??)  But, as you said, these kind of projects are not for the faint of heart.  They take a lot of money and time.  If you look back through my thread you can see why I'm doing mine.  Folks have asked for dollar numbers and I Have to say that the dollars have been fairly low to this point ( a little here and there, mostly to AMD.)  But I warned my wife that there will be a lot of money going out the door now.  If I get away from the paint shop for $10k I will feel lucky. 

Looking at getting the rear end set up for about $2K.  Suspension (including brakes) another $3k.  Engine and trans, maybe $12K.  Interior, $4K.  Add 10% for items not included ( $3-5K)  Looks like I will be shelling out anywhere from $35-40K.  Original cost of car was about $14K and parts I've bought to date ($5K), total is in the $55-60K range.  Not going to sell this baby for a profit!!!

[fy469rtse]

Shit Mitch , you had better plan that engine out, list what you would like to do , and the price everything against that llist Mitch, you might want to rethink that stroker , I spent that on the engine alone, most of my parts bought over there, bought all the bits over a period of time whilst doing other things , quickly adds up,
I think I spent 3 to 4 just on trans including new high stall converter,
Wait a minute I have to stop myself and stop thinking about the cost , just build it , got that part Mitch , imagine if you had to pay some one to do all that work you have already done , add it up by hourly rate to all the hours you have put in , it's our hobby and interest, your have saved yourself a tonne of money on metal work alone , so don't be afraid to build your car the way you want, if it takes longer because of the cost so be it,can't wait to see progress, I know how I felt when it was in the shop to get painted, seemed like it was taking forever , so I worked on other parts , planned to all these bits to put back on her, didn't get half of them done , because suddenly she was ready to come home, so keep busy and it will be back soon

[green69rt]

I visited the shop today and got some good news.  They've started on the car, first step was to install all the fenders, doors, hood and trunk lid to check for alignment.  The car actually looked like a charger.   At least it didn't set for months before they started on it.

Bad news is that there are some problems.  Either I made them or they are left over from before I got the car.   Doors and fenders don't line up well and the hood is bowed.   They are checking but it looks like the frame was pushed back by a hit.   I suspected this might be a problem and tried to correct it as I went along but didn't do enough.  The dimensions are in the 1/2" range but still enough to through things off.   They gave me a choice.   They can route out the mounting holes in the fenders and door hinges or take the front clip off and remount it correctly.   The problem is not with horizontal measurements its with the up and down measurements.   The nose droops.   They shop is working on an estimate.   We'll see.

Anyway here's a couple of pics in the shop.

[JB400]

At least they are working on it

[green69rt]

Yeah, working on it is better than waiting thru more time.    Sounds like an extra few weeks in the shop..

[fy469rtse]

so Mitch she's bowed down, I would be taking her back home to sort out , you are better off doing it your self or have you had enough at this stage, did you have engine side skirts off, I cant remember,
drill out the spot welds to inner skirts near fire wall and induce the bow from there , time for us car tool frame ties,
or was she tired in the frame already, and you just put back as you took apart , close up shots to affected areas please, show me how far out it is.

[fy469rtse]

Mitch that hood easily adjusted, put some bolts in the fenders , close up that hood is better then the one I started with , search the threads for panel line up, edge of hood front and rear and a bit of manipulation , check how the factory did it, they still use rubber mallets to this day
its only the sides to match fenders, the rest of that hood in great shape
sorry mate should have piped in and told you to align everything before you took it to the shop .
ignoring the fenders can the doors line up ok , find the point where you are out, don't like the idea of slotting hole to make things fit and would advise you not to let the do so,
find out where she's bowed from first Mitch,
not a big deal yet , but high lights the problem some guys get into whacking frame connectors in without checking fitment.
another visit to the panel shop Mitch , lots of photo's please, hopefully we can give you some advise to help fix this easily,

[fy469rtse]

just another thought, you haven't got those repop hinges have you Mitch, junk not a good fit , grab your old ones if you have them , repin them , repops holes are out and make the job more difficult 
I zooming in on the photos you have posted and it doesn't look bad , it cant be that far out , if so not that difficult to fix , come back with close up photo's of those area's