Why do people drool over an HEMI engine? (or 'abuse' the HEMI)

[bullit68]

hemidoug,thats a very clean charger you have there.i just picked up a 528 crate hemi(barton built,smokin deal)for my 69 hemi,4spd charger and hope to someday beat the snot out of it like you do.you are an inspiration.

[Hemidoug]

Thanks guys....I'm just doin' what I always dreamed about doin' with the car I always dreamed about....

And yes..it is a stroker...4.15 crank = 477 cubes. Aluminum heads and a "mild" solid roller, 9.95 to 1 CR. It's a pump gas motor. I built the car as a hot street car and a cruiser. I think it turned out OK. Not having the numbers motor allows for some freedom in the build. I could have gone the concours route but then I wouldn't have a hot rod to enjoy...besides that's the role of my 71 sixpack car. Believe it or not a much more rare car with less then 100 4 spds built...and documented Mr. Norms car. I think the track days are over for the Hemi car though....tired of breaking "stuff". I have a 65 Plymouth that will become my track car. It's too hard to keep a true street/strip car up...

[Hemidoug]

Oh I do CB and don't think I was mocking you.  I wasn't; that being said though I will let my comment stand.  The Hemi has in many ways always been a rich mans engine from the first Chrysler ones in the 50's right up to the present day.  Being purchase or upkeep, they are not for the faint of heart or pocketbook.  But then again, you don't often find a Secretariat or a Sea Biscuit out pulling a hay wagon.  It was a high performance engine from the get go and that costs money.  Period.

Very true statement...I don't consider myself rich...but I am considerably less rich because of the Hemi car.... But then again I coulda bought stocks with the money...how much fun would that be now.....

[hemi68charger]

Oh I do CB and don't think I was mocking you.  I wasn't; that being said though I will let my comment stand.  The Hemi has in many ways always been a rich mans engine from the first Chrysler ones in the 50's right up to the present day.  Being purchase or upkeep, they are not for the faint of heart or pocketbook.  But then again, you don't often find a Secretariat or a Sea Biscuit out pulling a hay wagon.  It was a high performance engine from the get go and that costs money.  Period.

Very true statement...I don't consider myself rich...but I am considerably less rich because of the Hemi car.... But then again I coulda bought stocks with the money...how much fun would that be now.....

I'm a average guy who was living/driving in an age where I could get one of these beasts, albeit it was a total project and I gave up an original v-code '70 Charger R/T (the white one with burnt orange interior that's been on ebay for awhile). I too have become less "rich" because of the car. Doug, you've done a fantastic job on the car. Fortunately for people like you and I, we can turn the wrenches on the car once painted and thus, save A LOT OF CASHOLA....

The '69's destiny now as it sounds is one of street pounding and late-model muscle embarrassment. I can see the  now... 

[Hemidoug]

Thanks Troy...yea, we are part of a dying breed....I think a lot of fellow Hemi car owners are afraid of using the cars as they were intended.....I ran into the original owner's nephew and he told me a lot of stories about the car when new....apparently my car has/had quite the reputation in the NYC street racing shoot outs....it was funny 'cause he had been looking for the car for a long time amd it was right under his nose. We bumped into one another at a show at Englishtown last year. This car has been a gunslinger on the street all it's life and I think it fitting to keep it that way instead of locked behind some garage door....

[SeattleCharger]

a 440 isn't an engine without a reputation, also.  Seems like anybody that you tell you got a 440 is still impressed with a 440 cube  Mopar big block

[375instroke]

Didn't the 426 Hemi come in 1,2,3,&4th place in it's first race against the best that Ford and Chevy could come up with at the Daytona 500 in '64?  Then NASCAR banned it in '65 because they didn't want one team to keep kicking the crap out of everyone else with an exotic race engine.  So, for '66, Chrysler released the Hemi to the public, thus complying with NASCAR's rules, kicking ass again, and bringing restrictor plates into the picture for the Hemi.  Then there's the dominance, or should I say monopoly, of the Hemi in NHRA Top Fuel racing.  The Hemi was designed for the big circle track races, and long after it's disappearance from those tracks, it still lives on the 1/4 mile, or should I say 1000' since it's so fast now?  All this designed by a bunch of gearheads from Chrysler in their spare time racing on weekends, then parlaying it into the legend it is today after Chrysler gave them backing, pulling the 426 Hemi together in less than 1 year.

The Hemi was designed 45 years ago without computers.  It's like a stone age motor that was at it's peak at it's time.  It was a huge leap compared to what came before.  Less than ten years earlier, Chevy didn't even have their small block yet, and the Corvette came with a six cylinder.

At the air shows I've been to, there is a demonstration with a P-51 Mustang and F-15 flying together, then the F-15 being put through it's paces.  Not stingy on the afterburner I may add.  Then the two flying together again.  Passing in formation, all the crowd can hear is the Mustang, with the F-15 completely silent at that power level.  Then the F-15 lights it up, and makes a tremendous sound as it goes skyward, blowing the Mustang away.  Ask both pilots which plane they want to fly, and they both say the Mustang.  Why do you think that is?

As for the Hemi expensive, 440 cheap comments.  Don't the Chevy guys say the same thing about how much cheaper it is to build a Chevy?  So what?  It's still a Chevy.

[RD]

kinda rough dont you think?  its not about legend anymore.  yeah hemi is a good motor, but its based more on legend and racing pedigree rather than putting the HP and torque to the flexplate.  please do not attempt to categorize me as a chevy guy because i make statements regarding the ability to build a 440 that would whoop the holy living hell out of a hemi for 1/2 of the cost, because you would be desperately mistaken.

I didnt dictate the price of the hemi and its components to the superinflated price it is today and neither did 90% of the people out there.  I am not saying the hemi engine is a turd... hell it isnt.  I am not saying I wouldnt own one, I would.  What I am saying is that the hemi, in all its glory, is only the king of the mountain because we say it is, not because it really is.  A 440 is just as good as engine for a fraction of the cost, period.  I wont place the hemi on a pedestal because of two reasons:

its priced way too high for everyone to enjoy its advantages

and

other engines can match its hp/torque numbers with all the new aftermarket suppliers and builders available today

Ask anyone on this board why they chose a 440, 400, 413, 340, 360, 318 over a hemi and all of them will say this:  I cannot afford one, they cost too much.

So, with that argument, one could ask why build a 440 that will cost 1/2 of what a hemi cost and produces more power and torque?  My answer: why wouldnt you? So what? It's still a 440, right?

[Hemidoug]

The only reason some Hemi stuff is expensive is because it costs more to produce it....think about it. Aftermarket prices are about the same when it comes to blocks/cranks/rods/pistons....it isn't more money until you get to the heads and valve train. THAT is where the price is more expensive...dollar for dollar the improvement costs above the cost of the motor you will see more out of the Hemi.....no doubt about it.

Second.....it was many many years before the aftermarket caught up with the RB engines...you don't remember the days when you couldn't get crap for Mopar RB engines...so you have to put things into context....An RB engine just will not catch a Hemi after 3K......the Hemi will walk away every time and I own both and RAN both. I got high 12s out of my 71 R/T 440 sixpack pictured below back in the mid 80s. As a street motor the 440 is better hands down, but if you can turn a wrench and tune there is no better then the Hemi.

[71 Bee Man]

My Bee has a 383. That's what it is supposed to have in it. Mind you, my actualy engine is out of a 68 model. H.P block.
I would love to get my hands on the original engine, but even if I could track it down, I doubt I could afford to ship it to Australia.

Not real fussed about dropping a 440 in. The 383 has heaps of "go" in it, and there's always something that will go faster anyway.

Peter

[RD]

The only reason some Hemi stuff is expensive is because it costs more to produce it....think about it. Aftermarket prices are about the same when it comes to blocks/cranks/rods/pistons....it isn't more money until you get to the heads and valve train. THAT is where the price is more expensive...dollar for dollar the improvement costs above the cost of the motor you will see more out of the Hemi.....no doubt about it.

Second.....it was many many years before the aftermarket caught up with the RB engines...you don't remember the days when you couldn't get crap for Mopar RB engines...so you have to put things into context....An RB engine just will not catch a Hemi after 3K......the Hemi will walk away every time and I own both and RAN both. I got high 12s out of my 71 R/T 440 sixpack pictured below back in the mid 80s. As a street motor the 440 is better hands down, but if you can turn a wrench and tune the is no better then the Hemi.

i agree with you to an extent, but we should include the adage, if you can afford it.  you see an engine is only as good as the components that make it up.  "IF" I have a budget of $7500, the components of my engine, machine work and assembly will produce a 440 (that could be stroked or not) that will be a better engine than the hemi.  In that case, it will beat a hemi.

Factory to Factory? Hemi engine is as great as the guy behind the wheel against a 440 six pack car and vice versa.  Hemi's are great engines, as well as all mopar engines imo, but those days of factory to factory comparisons are long gone.  It is 40 years later and we have to take into consideration cost, components, and engines now.

You were right to say about the inadequate support for the RB engine, but now that this support is here, the argument between the two engines is a moot point especially considering door slammer, drive it during the week and race it on the weekend practicality.

Now, I do understand that most hemi owners will not do the above (except you Doug, I know your a run the hell out of it type of guy) due to the investment they have in their vehicles, and that is totally legit.  But, if you want to a more cost effective way of producing horsepower, from a more produced and more available big block mopar, then the 440 is the most logical way to go to produce the same, and in most cases more power than a hemi.

[richard pettys 73]

MAN RD I WISH YOU LIVED CLOSER I WOULD HAVE YOU BUILD MY 440..I WOULDNT DROOL OVER OR FOR A HEMI BUT IF YOU WANT YOUR CAR TO BE AN ORIGINAL OR A REPLICA LIKE THE ONE I WANT TO BUILD PEOPLE WOULD SELL THEIR HOUSE TO GET ONE IT SEEMS . AS FOR ME I WILL BUILD A 440 CAUSE I CANT AFFORD A 16,000 MOTOR AND I AM NOT SELLING MY HOUSE TO GET ONE...IMO 

[Bobs69]

With our cars everyone wants to look under the hood, see if what you have under the hood is as clean and nice as the outside.  I have a 440 in my charger, I love the way a Hemi looks.  Nice wide valve covers...........wider then my neighbours 454.

[Hemidoug]

Well RD...we will have to agree to disagree....there is nothing on the face of the Earth as snotty as a good running Hemi....

[RD]

Well RD...we will have to agree to disagree....there is nothing on the face of the Earth as snotty as a good running Hemi....

LOLOL!!! okay doug its a deal!

edit... i am about as stubborn with my 440 ideology then ron is huh?

[Hemidoug]

Well RD...we will have to agree to disagree....there is nothing on the face of the Earth as snotty as a good running Hemi....

LOLOL!!! okay doug its a deal!

edit... i am about as stubborn with my 440 ideology then ron is huh?

Dude...don't get me wrong...ain't NUTTIN wrong with a good running 440....ain't nuttin at all! As a matter of fact I'll be going wedge in my 65 Plymouth that will be a future Nostalgia Super Stock car (at first anyway ).

[69_500]

As far as I see it, it all goes like this.

$$ for $$$ right now yes its cheaper to make the same power on a built up 440 as say a rebuilt stock HEMI will make. However it you sit back and be honest and realistic about it, there is a ceiling/limit to the amount of power that the 440 is going to make. What is the celing? 500-600hp? Now what is the ceiling on the HEMI? If you going to build one up to beat on, you start around 600-650 and go up to what? 750-900 if you want. That is why there is a  over the HEMI.

HEMI was designed to do one thing. DOMINATE. BE THE KING OF THE HILL. As of yet, there still hasn't been a motor to knock it off its perch at the top, and this is what 45 years later?

[Mefirst]

As 69_500 wrote in his post, I also made that same statement several pages back...

RD*** -You say you can build a high powered 440 for less money than a stock 426 Hemi costs.. Your budget is then, give or take, around 15.000$

Well let's say I would make you a serious bet. I bet my Hemi engine, Ill even ship it over the Atlantic to your door step IF your N/A 440 based engine will run a faster 1/4mile time than my Hemi engine.

The only money I will spend is on a new valvetrain for my engine, everything else will be just a change of parts I have on a shelf in my basement... The ONLY change I will make is the new valvetrain, use an old roller camshaft I already have, well and some new gaskets...

The deal is. Build your engine, put it between the fenders of your 68 Charger, with a more or less equal drivetrain (except engine) as mine has, weigh the same.. And we will do a 1/4mile race. Winner takes the losers engine.

Just so you know, at this moment I don't have a clue what my car will run as it is, so you might even beat me with with one of the cars you have listed in your signature, but the question still remains -Would you take this bet???


/Tom

PS. Just so you know. I have spent less than 12.000$ TOTAL on my Hemi engine...

[suntech]

The deal is. Build your engine, put it between the fenders of a 68-70 Charger, with a more or less equal drivetrain (except engine) as mine has, weigh the same.. And we will do a 1/4mile race. Winner takes the losers engine.

Just so you know, at this moment I dont have a clue what my car will run as it is, so you might even beat me with your Chargers current 440, but the question still remains -Would you take this bet???

This, my friend, shows some stones!!!!  I would say this is really putting your money where your mouth is!!

[CB]

yea, Tom, nice bet

CB

[375instroke]

What Super Stock class do 440 Darts race in?  Do they run faster than the SS/A Hemi Darts and Barracudas?

[mauve66]

What Super Stock class do 440 Darts race in?  Do they run faster than the SS/A Hemi Darts and Barracudas?

there you are comparing stock to stock, yes they can vary a little bit but not alot of deviation in the rules,
put a $10K budget on it and you won't have enough left for the oil or plug wires on the HEMI................. plus a cuople of other things that are needed

[Mefirst]

The stock/super stock cars run against a set index system according to power/weight or Cids/weight (well the Super Stock cars don't have the same restrictions as Stock cars have), I cant really explane this, its complicated.

There is like 12 different classes in Super Stock and is it 34 different in Stock... The 440 is a larger cid engine, so the index, power or cids/weight rules are not the "same" for a 440 car as a Hemi car because they are in different classes.. Best thing is to get a book about the rules...

I have many times wonder how the Stock/Super Stock guys even know what class their car fit into, the class system just so complicated..

Any way... A Super Stock Hemi car would beat the snoot out of a 440 Super Stock car. The fastest Hemi Super Stock cars run, what, low 9 to mid 8 sec times..

/Tom

[mauve66]

but aren't they limited to a "stock type" part?? block intake carbs crank and such or is that some other class???

[Mefirst]

but aren't they limited to a "stock type" part?? block intake carbs crank and such or is that some other class???

I will try to answer your question, but I just have to look up some facts...

/Tom