What motor for the cuda?

[471_Magnum]

Now that I have broken cover with the Cuda, we can start discussing what the heck I should put under the hood.

As mentioned in the other thread, the Cuda comes with a disassembled 440. I still need to confirm the specs on the block, but I'm assuming it is 30-over. Pistons are KB cast, and rods are CAT H-beams. Crank is 3.75 stroke forged. Heads are iron with 2.14/1.81 valves and light porting, but I'm not sure what casting number.

Unfortunately, it's not the way I want to build a motor. If I were to stick with a big block, I'd want to run aluminum heads, and forged pistons, preferably in a low deck motor. I want the car to handle respectably, so getting weight off the nose is important. Being a manual transmission car, I want a nice low bob weight.

So the question becomes, how much of what I already have should I try to utilize?

Do I:
A)   Do the most economical thing by throwing together what I've got. It's all balanced and ready to assemble.
B)   Get new pistons and heads, and rebalance it? That will run about $1700, minus the salvage cost on the old stuff (anyone interested?).
C)   Should I start from scratch on the rotating assembly with a new stroker kit? I've got a 400 block, so I can potentially start from square one and build a low deck stroker. I think I can throw one together for about 5 grand, again, minus what I salvage from the 440.
D)   Dump the big block. I haven't ruled out running a small block. When I first looked at this car, "small block" was the first thought that went through my head. I haven't built a small block before, so it could be an interesting change of direction. Haven't run any budgetary estimates yet, but it won't be much less that a big block.
E)   Try a new Hemi. Prices on Hemis are dropping fast, and speed parts are now readily available. Again, haven't done a cost estimate, but it's an option I plan to investigate.

In the end, it comes down to budget, so I'm looking for the most economical way to build enough streetable horsepower to put the Cuda in the 12's.

Fortunately, I'm at least six months off from having to install a motor, so we can debate this for a while. At the same time, I'd like to set some direction so that I can snatch up some bargains on parts as they present themselves.

[68charger383]

I don't know, but "Hemi Cuda" has such a nice ring to it. 

[firefighter3931]

Well, you've had a taste of BB stroker power so anything less will probably leave you disappointed. Personally, i would use the 440 block and Cat 6.76 rods and sell off the rest. A 4.15 crank and a set of matching stroker pistons would finish off the shortblock nicely. Diamond makes a nice shelf piston for that combo that will yield a 10.5 static compression ratio at zero deck with an 84cc head and .040 head gasket for tight quench.

A closed chamber 84cc aluminum head is easy enough to source.....MP/Edlebrock/Stealth or even Indy EZ's would all fit the bill. The MP aluminum and Stealths use strait plugs which makes header selection easier...if that matters.

A 493 has a nice light bobweight and RPM's very quickly.....think 340 ! 

As for the cam i would use a custom flat tappet solid suited to the rest of the build and vacuum requirements. Intake manifold and carb are no brainers....Holley SD and a Proform 950.

With some mild porting on the heads and a descent cam this is an easy 550hp/600ftlb combo.

There are a few of these stroker builds in the proven combo section....General 01's build sounds like what you're looking for.....his cam was specced on a 4spd build like yours. The recipies i put together for Mike (MFR426) and John (Joflaig) are a little different from each other for various reasons, Mainly stall speed, gearing and intended usage.



Ron

[471_Magnum]

I'm pretty sure the rods have the 1.094 pin. Most stroker pistons use the 990 pin.

Furthermore, the rotating assembly is already balanced. Doesn't make a lot of sense to break it up.

May as well sell the whole rotating assembly as a package if I go the BB stroker route. $1900 gets a 4.15 kit with Ross pistons from Muscle Motors.

[firefighter3931]

I'm pretty sure the rods have the 1.094 pin. Most stroker pistons use the 990 pin.

Furthermore, the rotating assembly is already balanced. Doesn't make a lot of sense to break it up.

May as well sell the whole rotating assembly as a package if I go the BB stroker route. $1900 gets a 4.15 kit with Ross pistons from Muscle Motors.

Diamond makes the 493 13cc dished piston in both .990 and 1.094 pin sizes. I have a set of the 1.094's for a future project so i know they're made. Check the Diamond website for current availability. KB is now also making a Forged 493 piston....Brian (1Hot68) is running those in his engine.

You might be able to sell the whole rotating assembly as a unit but if you couldn't the CAT rods would certainly be servicable in a 493 build. 



Ron

[Ghoste]

Try a smallblock stroker in it.  You enjoy a challenge and how much straightline stuf do you do anyway?  Besides, in a few years you'll take on a new project in all likelihood anyway and it gives you a broader base of experience to know which way you want the next one to go.

[471_Magnum]

I don't disagree with the concept of the 493... but I've still got budget to consider.

Today with $4/gallon premium, the new Hemi can make a strong case for itself.

[firefighter3931]

I don't disagree with the concept of the 493... but I've still got budget to consider.

Today with $4/gallon premium, the new Hemi can make a strong case for itself.

The new hemi has some merit but i see that costing more to build than an old school stroker build. I for one would not use the factory crank and rods that come with the new hemi.....only forged cranks and forged rods go into my engines. 



Ron

[41husk]

I think the E bodies were designed for small blocks,  I had a big block challenger and it just doesnt handle well.  The small block makes all the difference in the world as for handling.  Now if your building this to go exclusivley down the 1/4 mile and your not worried about how it feels in the corners go big block

[471_Magnum]

I for one would not use the factory crank and rods that come with the new hemi.....only forged cranks and forged rods go into my engines. 

I feel pretty much the same way. Add forged pistons to that list, although there are many who say it's overkill on a street motor.

The small block makes all the difference in the world as for handling.

And that is my only real supporting argument for a small block. The new Hemi is even lighter.

[Charger-Bodie]

Use a rb or bb stroker, just be sure to use enough aluminum parts to lighten it up. 

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

6.1L ?

http://www.chargerforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89848

[471_Magnum]

In six months to a year, those 6.1L Hemis will be easier to find for sure. It's definitely an option I'll consider. I'm doing some homework figuring what is actually takes to install one of them.

[General_01]

I say BB stroker, but I am biased. Ron helped me figure out my 383 with the 440 Source 496 stroker kit.

I guess a lot of it depends on what you want to do with the car. I believe you stated you are staying with the stock suspension under the car. Not sure you can get the handling you want with a BB with the stock suspension, but I am not an expert at that. I think in an E body, a stroked small block would do the trick. I think that is what I would do.

I will now sit back and watch your build. I think it will be awesome no matter what you do. Good luck and congrats on the car. That thing looks nice.

[Rolling_Thunder]

Well - with a newer 6.1 you can always stroke it with forged internals...       but seriously - i dont think the 6.1 will need the forged parts...     i havent heard of any reliability problems with the parts that are there now...      plus the 6.1L hemi crank is already forged...      the weak links are the short piston (top compression ring land breaks under boost) and the powdered medal connecting rods...     but then again remember these engines are in thousands of SRT vehicles and serve reliably as is...      and still make 425hp easily....       

[471_Magnum]

"New Hemi" is winning the poll, but I can tell you that there is no way one of the new crate motors will fit the budget.

I can easily build a BB stroker for half the installed cost of the Hemi... and make more power to boot.

Now if I can find a smoking deal like Rolling Thunder did... that would be another story.

[suntech]

I voted for new Hemi, but what i mean is the old style, but full aluminum!!

[41husk]

If your looking for bang for the buck build a 360, still get the handeling can build some power and doesn't sounds badder than saying I have a built 318

[firefighter3931]

      plus the 6.1L hemi crank is already forged...      the weak links are the short piston (top compression ring land breaks under boost) and the powdered medal connecting rods...     but then again remember these engines are in thousands of SRT vehicles and serve reliably as is...      and still make 425hp easily....       

This is what irks me about the whole "new" hemi thing.....WTF are powdered metal rods and cast pistons doing in a performance engine 

At least they got the forged crank part right  on the 6.1....small miracle ! 

Sure they might live at 425hp but step up the combo and how long will it last ?     I sure don't want to be the crash test dummy for this type of experiment. 



Ron

[471_Magnum]

This is what irks me about the whole "new" hemi thing.....WTF are powdered metal rods and cast pistons doing in a performance engine 

At least they got the forged crank part right  on the 6.1....small miracle ! 

Sure they might live at 425hp but step up the combo and how long will it last ?     I sure don't want to be the crash test dummy for this type of experiment. 

Ron

I'mgoing to abuse the heck out of whatever goes under the hood, so it has to be bullet proof. The cost of making the new Hemi bullet-proof is up in the stratusphere. Score another point for the big block.

[Rolling_Thunder]

This is what irks me about the whole "new" hemi thing.....WTF are powdered metal rods and cast pistons doing in a performance engine 

At least they got the forged crank part right  on the 6.1....small miracle ! 

Sure they might live at 425hp but step up the combo and how long will it last ?     I sure don't want to be the crash test dummy for this type of experiment. 

Ron

I'mgoing to abuse the heck out of whatever goes under the hood, so it has to be bullet proof. The cost of making the new Hemi bullet-proof is up in the stratusphere. Score another point for the big block.

Ron - Keep in mind that with modern electronics (timing curves, WOT timing changes, rev-limiter) you would be hard pressed to hurt a 6.1...    I mean look at how guys with the SRT cars drive...    even stock it should put your cuda well into the 12's....       

The Other Ron -  podered medal rods and cast pistons in a performance engine...      why ? because they stood up to factory torture tests and are cheaper than forged parts...   

[471_Magnum]

I figured I'd the thread and give you guys an update on my latest plan.

Rather than dump a bunch of money into a motor, I think I'm going put it into the transmission.

I'm planning to sell off all the 440 and 4 speed stuff to finance a Tremec TKO 600, either from Keisler or Classic Mopar.

For motor-vation, I'm going to find a solid 340/360, top it with some decent heads, shove a lopey cam in it and stick it under the hood. I'll sort out the car in this mild/moderate configuration. If/when budget allows, I'll go with something a little more exotic.

I've got a limited budget, so I've got to set my priorities.

Be watching the classified for a bunch of 440 stuff, including a machined block, complete balanced rotating assembly, ported iron heads and RPM intake. I'll also be looking to move the fresh 23 spline B/E 4 speed.