I give up, 440's just run HOT

[71green go]

I have had the same problem with my 455 in my olds 71 442......I put in a 4 core rad and away went the probllem...never overheated again!.....I am also doing the same in my 454 Camaro...and now in my 71 440 R/T..........bigger rad seemed to work!....didnt change anything else..

[69chargeryeehaa]

well here's an update.  I installed the rubber seal between the hood and rad support.  I installed a 180* deg Mr Gasket high-flow stat.  also removed the pusher electric fan.  Now everything is stock except the high flow stat.  WHAT A HUGE DIFFERENCE.  The car used to drive (correction to my old post now that i payed attention to the gauge) 190 when crusin, and creeped from there at a stop, probably reaching 200 then vapor lock symptoms were setting in.  Now it cruises at 175-180; it cycles between there, you can see the stat open and close, when it opens it drops instantly to 175, then slowly goes to 180.  Last night i put the parking brake on, left it idling in gear for 15 mins, after a 1hr drive, and it stayed rock solid at 180.  Plus i can hardly believe how much less engine compartment heat there is now.  Also one thing that i thought was stupid when i was doing, but did anyways was wrap the fuel line in tinfoil.  to my total amazement the fuel line is cold now, where before it was almost impossible to touch > that one blew me away.  Anyways, i still have the milodon high flow pump on order, i'll put that in as well and i'm positive my running hot issues are solved now. thanks for all the help guys, i was really  my head on this one.   

[Charger-Bodie]

Great News!!! 

[69chargeryeehaa]

Great News!!! 

Yes it is.   I'm as happy as a pig in $hit!!!     i could not believe regular old tin foil was so effective at reflecting heat as it does.  The part of the fuel line that i didn't wrap with foil was hot, and the part i did was totally cold!!!! i have a new item to add to my tool box as well as the following "must have items": duct tape, electrical tape, zip ties, JB weld, hammer, automotive GOOP, TIN FOIL!!!! i'm convinced that with these items anything can be fixed!!!   

[myk]

Glad you found the problem and fixed it.  I have to ask though, if your car runs better without the electric fan, what is the proper way to mount an electric fan?  Or, what was wrong with the way you mounted your fan? 

[69chargeryeehaa]

Glad you found the problem and fixed it.  I have to ask though, if your car runs better without the electric fan, what is the proper way to mount an electric fan?  Or, what was wrong with the way you mounted your fan? 

My logic is that the mechanical fan is probably the best setup, i wanted to get the cooling system working without the electric fan; stock.  My thinking is that when the electric fan is off, it's an obstruction to air flow.  And when it's on, it's supplying the mechanical fan with air flow from the center of the rad (it was a 16" electric fan) and when it's on it doesn't allow the mech fan to draw air evenly from the entire surface of the rad.  I think the pusher fan is not the best method, instead it would be better to remove the mech fan and use the electric fan only with a shroud as a puller, then it would be fine; basically mimicking the stock setup with a electric fan, but you pay for it in taxing your electrical system, the fan i had was only 1600cfm and it pulled about 20A when it was running.  The version of electric fan i had was mounted directly to the face of the rad with cable ties that went thru the rad, i think it would work better if it were mounted 3-4" away from the front of the rad as it was on my old charger, in that configuration it actually really helped but it was really tight, just barley clearing the mount support for the grille.  But the electric fan is in my opinion a "band-aid" to another problem, it may help but it's not fixing the original issue. 

I'm a little perplexed why the high-flow stat made such a huge difference.  I've had the exact same combo except for the electric fan, and the thermostat, and still had a creeping temperature rise when sitting at idle in gear.  Not to mention the high reduction in engine bay temperatures, all from the high-flow stat and removing the electric fan.  I give the success to the stat and not removing the electric fan, although every little improvement to air flow helps, therefore removing the ele fan a wise choice.  Now granted the outside temps were not that hot when i tested, but they were the same temps that i had the problem in, and now there is not a hint of running hot at idle in gear; so i think i'm fine when it really gets hot out...

[69chargeryeehaa]

OK GUYS, TOTALLY STRIKE MY PREVIOUS POST.  THE DAMM THING STILL RUNS HOT. 

Who wants to buy a nice charger r/t???

I just don't get it, i went out for a drive, everything was fine, 175-180, then i hit traffic, there she went, 185, 190, 195, 200....then it ran like crap.

I'm totally lost for just about the first time, i just can't see what the problem is, as long as i'm moving, everything is perfect.

HELP....

[RD]

when was the last time you changed your coolant?  this is a leading question.

[Corellian Corvette]

Hear me out on this one. 200deg sitting in traffic is NOT too hot for your engine. Anyone who tells you they are getting their Big Block to maintain a constant 180 - 190 deg sitting idle is, to put it politely, misinformed. The thing is going to heat up in traffic. It's just the way it is. Nothing about the situation you're describing is unusual or alarming, honestly. 

I hear many people discussing maximum CFM flow of blade engine fans vs. electrical draw on the system, etc.  – and most people forget a very simple fact: Your car does not need to be spinning the fan to keep the engine cool AT SPEED. Natural airflow is doing that. When you're cruising down the freeway at 55+ MPH, all your fan is doing is creating a gigantic amount of drag on your pulley system, and your engine is expending HP and GAS to keep that unnecessary fan running.

At IDLE, when your engine NEEDS to be cooled, no belt driven fan can come close to the CFM generated by the electric fan, which is running at full speed. This is why every modern car runs Electric – the thing only comes on when the car gets hot. And no amount of draw on your electrical system is going to compare with the power it takes the engine to overcome the drag created by that fan (and, BTW, people always think an electric fan is creating some burden on your Alternator or whatnot, but as you know the fan us actually powered directly off the battery; the only draw from your "electrical system" is the small amount of power used to turn on the relay).

If you're building a driver, ditch that steel parasitic fan, and put the electric fan on the engine side. Set it to go on about 195 deg, and it will maintain your engine temperature perfectly. Additionally, you WILL feel a SOTP improvement in throttle response as your engine no longer has to overcome the drag, and the car will be less noisy on the highway. And remember again, 200deg for a short period at idle is normal.

Now that we're past the overheating issue, let's address why your car "runs like crap" when the temp gets over 200deg. THAT'S the only thing that's unusual – the car should run fine regardless of the engine coolant temp.

My guess is that your carburetor is bolted directly to your manifold, and is acting as a heat-sink and boiling the gas. If you have an iron manifold and haven't blocked the exhaust passages for the choke, that little Aluminum carb is getting cooked. A couple of suggestions (even if these aren't directly the problem, they are worthwhile to do anyway)

•   Get yourself a really short Phenolic spacer for the carb. DO NOT get one of those cheapie aluminum spacers they sell at the parts stores, it will only make the problem worse. It doesn't have to be thick – even a little 1/ 2 in spacer works great. Get a good one that matches your intake pattern, like this http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=SUM%2DG1402&N=700+4294873482+115&autoview=sku
•   If you're running the manual, heated choke that probably means your exhaust passage crossover under the intake is open. Block that puppy up and convert to an electric choke. Running the exhaust under the manifold is great if you're in a cold climate to help heat the engine, but totally unnecessary in warmer climates and could be making your boiling problem worse. 
•   Make sure you don't have any exhaust leaks – this will case air to be drawn back into the heads and can cause them to get hotter than they should, thereby heating up your intake/carb.

I'm also a bit concerned when you say your fuel line is getting hot. You should just do a visual check and make sure there is no contact anywhere – I'll double check my car, but I can't believe that the heat thrown off by your engine is getting your fuel line hot to the touch. Make sure your fuel line is NOT touching any part of the engine, anywhere. No part of the metal line should come in contact with the block. And make sure you don't have an exhaust leak that near the manifold/header pipe connection. That could be throwing super hot gasses right on the fuel line.

I think the fact that your car starts to run bad is making the temp issue seem worse than it is. Let us know how it works.

[myk]

C-Vette brings up alot of great points.  Out of curiosity, if we were to switch to 'ele fans only, how big of a CFM fan would we need to mount?  Also, it'd be a puller and not a pusher, right?

[Musicman]

Hear me out on this one. 200deg sitting in traffic is NOT too hot for your engine. Anyone who tells you they are getting their Big Block to maintain a constant 180 - 190 deg sitting idle is, to put it politely, misinformed. The thing is going to heat up in traffic. It's just the way it is. Nothing about the situation you're describing is unusual or alarming, honestly. 

I hear many people discussing maximum CFM flow of blade engine fans vs. electrical draw on the system, etc.  – and most people forget a very simple fact: Your car does not need to be spinning the fan to keep the engine cool AT SPEED. Natural airflow is doing that. When you're cruising down the freeway at 55+ MPH, all your fan is doing is creating a gigantic amount of drag on your pulley system, and your engine is expending HP and GAS to keep that unnecessary fan running.

At IDLE, when your engine NEEDS to be cooled, no belt driven fan can come close to the CFM generated by the electric fan, which is running at full speed. This is why every modern car runs Electric – the thing only comes on when the car gets hot. And no amount of draw on your electrical system is going to compare with the power it takes the engine to overcome the drag created by that fan (and, BTW, people always think an electric fan is creating some burden on your Alternator or whatnot, but as you know the fan us actually powered directly off the battery; the only draw from your "electrical system" is the small amount of power used to turn on the relay).

If you're building a driver, ditch that steel parasitic fan, and put the electric fan on the engine side. Set it to go on about 195 deg, and it will maintain your engine temperature perfectly. Additionally, you WILL feel a SOTP improvement in throttle response as your engine no longer has to overcome the drag, and the car will be less noisy on the highway. And remember again, 200deg for a short period at idle is normal.

Now that we're past the overheating issue, let's address why your car "runs like crap" when the temp gets over 200deg. THAT'S the only thing that's unusual – the car should run fine regardless of the engine coolant temp.

My guess is that your carburetor is bolted directly to your manifold, and is acting as a heat-sink and boiling the gas. If you have an iron manifold and haven't blocked the exhaust passages for the choke, that little Aluminum carb is getting cooked. A couple of suggestions (even if these aren't directly the problem, they are worthwhile to do anyway)

•   Get yourself a really short Phenolic spacer for the carb. DO NOT get one of those cheapie aluminum spacers they sell at the parts stores, it will only make the problem worse. It doesn't have to be thick – even a little 1/ 2 in spacer works great. Get a good one that matches your intake pattern, like this http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=SUM%2DG1402&N=700+4294873482+115&autoview=sku
•   If you're running the manual, heated choke that probably means your exhaust passage crossover under the intake is open. Block that puppy up and convert to an electric choke. Running the exhaust under the manifold is great if you're in a cold climate to help heat the engine, but totally unnecessary in warmer climates and could be making your boiling problem worse. 
•   Make sure you don't have any exhaust leaks – this will case air to be drawn back into the heads and can cause them to get hotter than they should, thereby heating up your intake/carb.

I'm also a bit concerned when you say your fuel line is getting hot. You should just do a visual check and make sure there is no contact anywhere – I'll double check my car, but I can't believe that the heat thrown off by your engine is getting your fuel line hot to the touch. Make sure your fuel line is NOT touching any part of the engine, anywhere. No part of the metal line should come in contact with the block. And make sure you don't have an exhaust leak that near the manifold/header pipe connection. That could be throwing super hot gasses right on the fuel line.

I think the fact that your car starts to run bad is making the temp issue seem worse than it is. Let us know how it works.

Like I already said earlier...    Good Advice  ... and Thanks Again for taking the time to elaborate on the information posted.

[69chargeryeehaa]

great info there, please keep it comming.....

The intake is a eddy CH4B, with a eddy 1411 ele choke carb.  I have the 1/2" eddy insulating gasket under the carb.  The fuel line i relocated out to the side with a rubber line from the fuel pump, up and over to the side up and over to the carb.  Last night the coil was very hot to the touch (my coil is near when the stock washer bottle is on a charger, just under there).  Coolant was flushed and filled last fall, 16lb cap.  I have stock exhaust manifolds with the flapper removed, and the intake gaskets to block off the manifold heat.  The exhaust system is a new TTi 2.5" h-pipe system and there are absolutely no exhaust leaks at all.  The car starts, runs, idles PERFECTLY when its NOT hot.  At 190-195 it starts running crappy (just a little) last night it was vapor locking and actually died on me (at 200).  I restarted it and held the rpms at 2000,for a few minutes, then drove off at 40mph, and the car cooled down to 180 in 1 mins; but shortly after that i stopped at a park and opened the hood, even though the temp was 180-185, there was a TONN of engine compartment heat. 

I'm beginning to wonder about timing, i have 15 initial, 35 total mech and 14 vac adv.  Everything is hooked up properly, ported vac to advance, ect.....I'm thinking about going to the factory specs which is AUTO 5deg btdc.  But i can't remember the relationship to heat, less or more timing? or both??

What i see happening here is that there just gets to a point where the engine compartment heat just keeps rising and the engine just can't cool or overcome it.  For the first 30 mins of driving there's no issue, until everything just gets too hot.....

Funny thing i was thinking about last night, i also have a 1974 VW Beetle, i've had the car for a long time, and i've actually fought a totally opposite battle with that car a while ago, and that was trying to make the car run HOTTER!!!!  it was running with oil temps at 120, and i wanted it closer to 180 to stop breather gunk.  Putting a stock air bellows thermostat in with the flaps forces it to run hotter, ahhhhh the good old days...  

[69chargeryeehaa]

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[69chargeryeehaa]

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[Just 6T9 CHGR]

You have a solid fan in there???

Toss that & get the viscous fan package from Mopar.........
& the correct upper hose while you are at it instead of that universal one...

[0X01B8]

Sorry you're having so much trouble.  One thing I've been doing at the start of springtime is drain my radiator and put in regular old water.  Then I add some Water Wetter or similar product.  Antifreeze is a pretty crappy coolant, in reality.  WW is basically a lot of $ for essentially dish washing liquid, without the suds, and not that concentrated.  Go try and wash a plate with just water and see how the water won't stick to the plate.  Then add a drop of dish washing liquid to the plate and compare how much better the water bonds to the plate.  Same thing in your motor.  The more water molecules that can contact the hot surfaces in the motor means more heat they can transfer.

I don't completely know what I'm talking about, but this seems to work pretty good for me.      I'd try draining your entire system and replace with 100% water and a bottle of WW or something like it.  I think they usually have a rust inhibitor in them as well.  WW + antifreeze will have almost no effect, IIRC.  We have almost the same build and my temp needle does climb some after extended idling on hot days, but never causes drivability problems.  I've also got spacers between the carb and iron intake.  I added the vapor separator / fuel filter last year and that eliminated any hard cranking when hot too.  Good luck.   

-john

[69chargeryeehaa]

You have a solid fan in there???

Toss that & get the viscous fan package from Mopar.........
& the correct upper hose while you are at it instead of that universal one...

yes, solid 7 blade, stock.  I really don't see the fan and hose being the problem, i thought the hose was the good one with the spring in it? Everything is "perfect" yet it still runs hot, i don't just want to throw parts at it, besides with everything stock i should be able to run cool, or at least not overheat.

[0X01B8]

I think you want the spring in the bottom hose so it won't collapse under pressure.

[69chargeryeehaa]

so i've been reading posts i searched for, and found this one: http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,15771.0.html

at the end on page 2, he says it was the fuel pump in the end.  Now hear me out, last night my car actually died on me at about 190, i started it back up held the rpms at 2000 for a min and drove off, after several attempts of this i was off, and drove 20 mi home with no problems (but allways moving, temps were at 180 moving, and creeping up at lights, but they were all short), but i have been noticing lately it's not running that good idle when hot as it used to.  I don't know why it starts running like crap when it's hot, but i'm putting 2 and 2 together here and thinking that the fuel pump is getting hot, and failing, at idle causing a lean condition which = HEAT, and ultimately my problem.  I'm sure my combo, parts used are good in the cooling system, and this just doesn't make cents.  Whatcha think? ummm?

[RD]

sounds plausible, but do this first and it wont cost you a dime.

jack up your car, in the front about 10", remove your radiator cap, start the engine and let it idle to operating temperature and monitor for any bubbles escaping from the radiator cap position.  You may have pockets in your block causing the coolant not to flow properly.

Is it really this?  I dont know, but it doesnt cost anything and it is one more thing to check off the list to ensure you are going down the right path.

[69chargeryeehaa]

sounds plausible, but do this first and it wont cost you a dime.

jack up your car, in the front about 10", remove your radiator cap, start the engine and let it idle to operating temperature and monitor for any bubbles escaping from the radiator cap position.  You may have pockets in your block causing the coolant not to flow properly.

Is it really this?  I dont know, but it doesnt cost anything and it is one more thing to check off the list to ensure you are going down the right path.

well i just replaced the thermostat, drained coolant, before putting on the thermostat housing, i filled the pump just below the thermostat, installed it, and poured the rest of the coolant in the rad.  it took exactly what i took out, and i've been driving the car for months but it was colder out; actually quite cold.  I added some coolant as well and it just puked it out.  I'm convinced there is no air in the cooling system, besides at 10mph it goes right down to 180 in less than 30secs.  The fuel pump is the only thing i can think of right now.  There are no air bubbles in the coolant when you revv the motor with the cap off, everything with the cooling system is perfect, i'm not using/loosing any coolant, it looks crystal clear.   

[y3chargerrt]

Your initial timing is 15 with 35 mechnical advance? Total timing should be around 35 and you have 50.Maybe part of the problem.

[69chargeryeehaa]

Your initial timing is 15 with 35 mechnical advance? Total timing should be around 35 and you have 50.Maybe part of the problem.

no initial timing 15, mech adv 20, 35 total mech timing, and additional 14 of vac advance. 

[firefighter3931]

Does your waterpump have an anti-cavitation plate installed ? Are you running stock pullies ? What waterpump and how many vanes ?

Based on your description, the pump isn't moving enough coolant at idle. 

I would upgrade to the Milidon pump which has multiple vanes and an anti-cavitation plate. 


Ron

[69chargeryeehaa]

Does your waterpump have an anti-cavitation plate installed ? Are you running stock pullies ? What waterpump and how many vanes ?

Based on your description, the pump isn't moving enough coolant at idle. 

I would upgrade to the Milidon pump which has multiple vanes and an anti-cavitation plate. 


Ron

pump is stock, actually everything is stock, i've ordered the milodon pump as well and i'll be putting that on for good measure regardless, but i'm convinced that all this heat/running hot issue is no longer the cooling system, it has to be running lean.  Its' jetted the way it has been for years, and just now this problem started.  I also noticed recently that at light throttle cruise i get a little surging happening, it's pointing me to a fuel issue.  The carb is about 2 years old, AFB eddy 1411, with a 1/2" insulating gasket, it must be the fuel pump.  Plus i notice incredible engine compartment heat which i did'nt have before, and it feels like the manifolds are getting much hotter than they were before, i'll try changing the fuel pump, it's the only thing that makes sense now....