Chrysler she's a changing...

[Ghoste]

If the Detroit automakers are the only ones with blinders on when it comes to building SUV's and trucks, how come all of the foreign makers have been trying so hard to crack that egg?

[hemihead]

If the Detroit automakers are the only ones with blinders on when it comes to building SUV's and trucks, how come all of the foreign makers have been trying so hard to crack that egg?

They want to get into the AMERICAN sales market to make some of the money that Detroit has been scooping up for so long . They can never sell a big truck or SUV in Japan because of their extreme fuel mileage standards . Most cars they dump here aren't sold in Japan .

[Ghoste]

Exactly, it's a reaction to the market here.  I can't imagine a group of people sitting around in three boardrooms in Detroit going "hmmmm, let's force everyone to buy big trucks and SUV's".   They are more than likely doing the very same thing the Japanese executives are, looking at sales reports and moving production into the areas that customers want.  We are the morons to blame not the American automakers and why would anyone think this mindset can only come from the execs in Detroit when you have Porsche making SUV's, Hyundai making SUV's, Toyota spending a fortune just on market research into selling a full size truck in North America, Honda wants to sell SUV's and pickups, they all want a part of the market that is driven by us-the consumer.

[Plumcrazy]

Were they a Chrysler engine?

All the ones I've seen have had the 3.0 Mitsubishi V6 engine in them.

[Mike DC]

 
You guys are missing my point.


I totally agree, it makes perfect sense to wanna cash in on the SUV/truck boom we've had in America lately.  Whether you're Detriot or anyone else. 

But here's my point --  Everyone else in the global auto industry didn't neglect their other vehicle lines and bet the entire future of their corporation on the truck/SUV boom never coming to an end.  Detriot basically did. 




No matter what statistics anyone can come up with about how good the current cars are from Detroit, the bottom line is that Detroit has been in red ink on the cars and surviving entirely on the black ink from the trucks for at least the last decade. 

Their car lines had been in this trouble since at least the 1980s, they stayed in this trouble during the 1990s and 2000s despite getting soaked in easy truck money, and now the companies are in real danger of going under when the truck market goes.  They didn't learn a damn thing. 


 

[Ghoste]

I think I get your point Mike but I still disagree.  I think Detroit has cars that are more than capable of competing with any foreign car on the market but we as consumers and most especially the consumers who are influenced by a press which seems to worship any foreign car just aren't interested.  The Big Three offer plenty of small cars but people want Civics not Calibers. 

[Brock Samson]

i dont think they are comparable.. 

[Mike DC]

 
Well Ghoste, we're in agreement on that.  Detroit has indeed closed the quality gap with Japan in a big way lately. 



But now they're fighting a perception that's getting drilled into kids from birth these days: 

Japanese product = moderately cool, best quality
American product = coolest of all, but it totally falls apart on the second owner
Chinese product = laughably bad in every category, but also laughably cheap


Kids are learning this message from everything from video games, to gadgets, to clothes, to power tools, etc.  Not just cars & trucks.   


Detroit has needed to make cars BETTER than Japan, not just in initial quality but more importantly in long-term quality, and do it consistently across all their car models for at least a decade.  It's not fair to Detriot, but it will take that much just to finally kick the perception of being worse than Japan in people's minds.  They've needed to do it for a long time. 

[andy74]

I think I get your point Mike but I still disagree.  I think Detroit has cars that are more than capable of competing with any foreign car on the market but we as consumers and most especially the consumers who are influenced by a press which seems to worship any foreign car just aren't interested.  The Big Three offer plenty of small cars but people want Civics not Calibers. 

i agree,from a sales persons perspective,you cant give away a cavalier,neon,focus,caliber,cobalt  but a 60k mile civic is like having a golden brick in the trunk! its all customer belief that a domestic is junk and that import means quality,fuel economy be damned! a durango,yukon or explorer is dead inventory now,where 2 to 3 years ago nice ones commanded a premium,chrysler is being globaly smart by teaming up to get small vehicles,and moving minivan sales to imports may actually boost there numbers too,due to the perception that they are a better product-not because they are or arent 

[Ghoste]

Sell the sizzle.

[Kevin68N71]

I think I get your point Mike but I still disagree.  I think Detroit has cars that are more than capable of competing with any foreign car on the market but we as consumers and most especially the consumers who are influenced by a press which seems to worship any foreign car just aren't interested.  The Big Three offer plenty of small cars but people want Civics not Calibers. 

i agree,from a sales persons perspective,you cant give away a cavalier,neon,focus,caliber,cobalt  but a 60k mile civic is like having a golden brick in the trunk! its all customer belief that a domestic is junk and that import means quality,fuel economy be damned! a durango,yukon or explorer is dead inventory now,where 2 to 3 years ago nice ones commanded a premium,chrysler is being globaly smart by teaming up to get small vehicles,and moving minivan sales to imports may actually boost there numbers too,due to the perception that they are a better product-not because they are or arent 

Yeah, I always laugh at someone who claims they got a "great deal" on their 120,000 mile Accord and you get in it and its like a box of rocks and your bottom is hitting the bottom of the seat frame.  And people DO think that is gold!

I am on my 4th company car, they get swapped out every 2-3 years.  Our leasing division provides options for American cars--mostly Taurus's and Chevys as well as Toyotas and Hondas.  And you know what?  The leasing company indicates that there are no more failures from the American cars as the foreign.  And our reps obviously drive the heck out of these cars.  Why do so many companies use US cars for fleets?  Because they are cheap and they don't break!  My company would never stand for stranding our people in low quality cars that totally fall apart.  I am on my third company Taurus and I also had a company Chevy Venture minivan.  The only service I have ever had on any of the cars is brakes and a battery or two.  How on EARTH can that be considered falling apart?

Now I know that some may consider my thoughts purely those of one person, but our company leases THOUSANDS of cars, so the math ain't there folks.

American cars are as good, if not better, on average, as imports.  It's been that way for a while.  People believe otherwise.  It's one of the strange parts of our culture.  It's not cool to like American cars.  You're cool if you drive a BMW but you are not cool if you drive a Cadillac.   Americans won't buy the equivalent American compact NO MATTER HOW GOOD it is, in the numbers of Japanese cars.  So then we blame the car companies?  Makes no sense. 

Take a look at how good a car that new Malibu appears to be.  Even the car press has noted that.  Now how many do you think they will sell against Accords or Camrys?  I wonder.

The downsides of this are the fact that it hurts our domestic car companies, and resale values.  The upside is if you are in the used car market, you can absolutely get fine cars dirt cheap.

[andy74]

the other thing that hurts us domestic guys is the fact that so damn many become rental cars,and then the used market is flooded with cars,driving the values into the shitter,sad but true fact of the car bizz these days

[myk]

Detroit has needed to make cars BETTER than Japan, not just in initial quality but more importantly in long-term quality, and do it consistently across all their car models for at least a decade.  It's not fair to Detriot, but it will take that much just to finally kick the perception of being worse than Japan in people's minds.  They've needed to do it for a long time. 

Exactly.  First and bad impressions last the longest of any, and that is why American car companies face a very long and hard uphill battle when it comes to their reputation.  I'd say that American cars have only begun to catch up to foreign quality standards in the last 5 to 8 years or so, and I'm probably being too kind.  One look at my '99 T/A or a friend's '02 Taurus will testify to that.

No, I don't see the bad reputation that American companies have as going away any time soon, especially when you consider that this perception of their lack of quality is global and not just confined to the 'States...

[hemihead]

The bad rep started in the early 80's . The young people back then had kids and have brainwashed their children to believe the foreign cars are better . The fit and finish and overall quality of American cars actually started to improve in the early 90's . I used to work in a junk yard a couple years ago and we had Japanese cars that were 3 or 4 years old come in totally wasted with rust . Not just floors or panels but massive frame rust .

[suntech]

I think many of you are missing a point here. You are talking about american cars versus european/japanese cars IN AMERICA!!! Gotta remember that american cars MAINLY is made for the american market, and and european and japanese cars were originally mainly made for our market. This is completly different criterias. We (europe) have, for as long as i can remember, payed AT LEAST 2-2,5 times miore than you guys (us) for gas. Our countries look different, with curvy  narrow mountain roads, old citys with narrow streets etc.
Our driving pattern is different. It can be weeks between every time my cars see a 4 lane road!! I drive 120 miles every day for work, on narrow bumpy mountain roads. Would be pretty stupid if i used my dually for that, so i have a 93 model VW Golf diesel for that use. If i lived in Germany, and spent most of my driving time on the autobahn, i would like something i could drive 140mph comfortably. (and leagal )
Many older japanese cars were extreme rust buckets, because they were early to start with thinner gauge bodys, to save weight.  Some european cars the same, for the same reason.
Same guys were also early in engine development, to save gas, and to be fair, if we compare a 80 model  average japanese engine, to an american average engine from the same time, i think we have to agree that the japanese were ways ahead then. These manufactors has made models to approche the US market, bigger engines etc, so some of the models you guys get, is not even available here, since the way they are calculated tax wise, they are priced out of the market. Has the us manufactors made models spesificly to aim for european/ asian market? I havent seen a us made car, with a 1300 cc engine, to suit this market.
The manufactors makes cars towards a target group of people, and their driving pattern. When used way outside these criterias, it is just not suitable!! Would i use my Golf to haul my horsetrailer or boat??? Naaaaaaaaaaaaa !!! the Dually is made for that!!

[Mike DC]

I totally agree with you about the major usage differences.  It really encouraged europe to get MPG-conscious and also to keep the cars smaller over the years.  But I don't think that excuses the quality gap that Detriot had with Japan for 20 years. 


I mean, look at the last 30 years:  The US public bought Japanese cars for a few years right after the unexpected 1973 gas crunch.  They were bored by the Japanese FWD & styling & size, but they were impressed by the fact that the Japanese cars still moved under their own power at 100,000 miles. 

In the 1980s & even the early 1990s, the gas was not quite as big a deal, and people were ready to begin giving Detriot another shot.  So what does Detriot do?  The switched to the Japanese-style tiny boring FWD cars, and they didn't bring the Japanese quality control with it!  Worst of all worlds! 




The generation of younger buyers now is sold on Japanese cars because they grew up watching their parents constantly trying to give Detroit's cars (not trucks) another shot in the 1980s/90s, and they got disappointed again & again for so long. 



When I was a teenager I once inherited a '85 Chevy Cavalier from my grandmother.  It was well-maintaned, it had a 2-liter motor, and about 60,000 miles on the clock.  Sounds like cheap & easy trasportation, right?  Well, that car stranded me on the side of the road 3 or 4 times before it hit 80,000 miles.  (Do the averaging math on that.  Over the two years I drove it, the car was literally going back to the shop on a wrecker almost as often as it got an oil change.)  That's a hard image to change. 


         

[suntech]

they were impressed by the fact that the Japanese cars still moved under their own power at 100,000 miles. 

Exactly Mike!! I have always had small displacement old cars, for work. My use pattern for them is the same as you guys might have an old S-10, for a work truck.
They can be rusty and ugly, but they work.. The old work cars i have had, are ugly and sometime rusty, and i dont care, for even with 200 K on the meter, they dont miss a stroke!!
The earlier mentioned 93 golf diesel does 48-50 mpg, and has 170.000 miles on the meter, and fires up right away regardless of weather and temperature, and does not let me down.
Maintainance is non existing ( threw on a quart of oil, after 20K miles).
What i think Detroit has used as a "sleeping pillow", is that they made it good enaugh to last for a while, comfortable on nice roads, luxury feeling, and kept the prices low. (Compare spare parts prices on Mercedez versus Chevy)!!!
People nowadays are much more quality oriented than they used to be, and Detroit were maybe a slower to change their ways due to this, compared to other manufactors.
Just an example: Mercedez put a new car through a test program, that equals, lets say 5 years/ 100K miles use. They find some play in a door hinge. They would say: design error, change it. Detroit would say, at least in the past: just wear.......... sell it!!!
This is not good enaugh for a picky and quality orientated customer anymore. Another thing is that a modern car is a hell of a lot harder to work on for yourself, with all computerized stuff, so something that used to be a 1 hour deal in the driveway, is now 1000 usd in a shop, and they dont want that.
You mentioned worst of both worlds, i´ll say best of both worlds would be american design and style, with european/ japanese quality standards

[Chatt69chgr]

The world is changing and if Chrysler wants to survive, it had better change too.  I don't think gasoline will ever come down to what it was.  I think even optimistically, we are looking at $3/gal gas minimum.  Gas milage is going to be the major concern for most folks when buying a vehicle.  So you have to build vehicles that get good gas milage.  I truely believe we are looking at the end of the rear drive V8 powered car unless you are buying a expensive luxury car and those folks don't car what the car costs or what the gas costs.  I don't think they would have built the Challenger unless it had already been in the pipeline and the entire platform was already being manufactured (new Charger).   Chrysler is doing what must be done---trying to service every market niche practicable with the resources they have and the alliances they can forge---with fuel efficient vehicles.  Hopefully, they won't fall into the trap of building cars with only fuel economy in mind.  They better look good to capture people's imagination and they better be well built.
It is interesting the mistique surrounding the Honda cars.  In East TN, a 3 year old Honda Accord will sell for $1000 more than a comparable 3 year old Toyota Camry because people here think that the Honda is better whethere it is or not.  And used Civics-----I don't see how anyone in their right mind would ever buy one used.  They sell for 75% of what they were new 5 years old.  From a $$ standpoint, I understand why people drive them, my daughter has one, but they sure are not comfortable to drive.  My wife's 2002 Camry is a lot more comfortable to drive than the 2001 Civic and it's a lot quieter.  I'am still looking to buy a new Challenger but will keep the Camry.  It used to get 32mpg on the highway (before they degraded the gas with Ethanol) and it's only got 65,000 miles on it.  And it's paid for.
I hope Chrysler successfully navigates the future and continures to offer cars that are exciting.  I find no pleasure in driving the Camry but in 2002, we were so mad at American car makers after our disasterous experience with our 1994 Taurus that we wouldn't even go look at American cars.  I'am still mad at Ford for the way they treated us.  If it wasn't for the new Mustang, I wouldn't even pay any attention to anything they make after that debacle. 

[hemihead]

It still amazes me how you Foreign car lovers complain and cry about American car quality and gas mileage but you all go out and what do you buy ?
A Charger ! Especially you Europeans . All the garbage I hear about America and how the world hates us but you want American musclecars ?
I don't care what you say about how you think a Charger looks or the excuse that it's a classic . It is still the same poor quality built car that you despise . Shouldn't you be collecting the classic Jap Scrap ?
Mike you talk about an 85 Cavalier ? That thing was junk when new . It was a cheap throw away car . You get what you pay for .
Suntech , you compare Mercedes to Chevy ? That's a fair comparison . Not even in the same price class. If MB is so great what happened to the MB built Chryslers ? When I made my ealier statement about Japanese quality cars rotting out I wasn't talking about the 80's cars . I'm talking 98 - 99 models . You can praise foreign cars all you like but they are no better than American cars in many ways .

[suntech]

You can praise foreign cars all you like but they are no better than American cars in many ways .

If you live in Germany, a normal MB is not consithered a luxury car, it is just a normal car, like a chevy malibu, or something like that, in the US. I dont worship european or japanese cars at all, and if you read my first post here, you would see that i mean that cars are made for different purposes, not a "on type fits all" deal!!

I don't care what you say about how you think a Charger looks or the excuse that it's a classic . It is still the same poor quality built car that you despise . Shouldn't you be collecting the classic Jap Scrap ?

I don´t despite the american cars at all!! I use a jap scrap, or german scrap to move me around for work, at lowest possible cost, and i dont care about the car!
I have a chevy crew cab dually to haul what i need to haul, and i like the car! Then........... my hobby is the 68 Charger, and i LOVE the car!!!!

Especially you Europeans . All the garbage I hear about America and how the world hates us but you want American musclecars ?

Dont really see where you want with that comment. I have never hated America, and never will, and i have spent a lot of time there, and have a lot of friends there!
And............ what does the musclecar interrest have to do with if you like the county or not? Would you turn a supersexy lady down, because she has a husband you dont like

[Brock Samson]

 at the risk of also getting flamed,..
when i read Hemihead's response above, I thought what post did he read?..  and i reread suntech's post still don't see how hemihead managed to get all offended... 
But ya' know, I've had some folks flame me and no i wont mention names,.. because they simply didn't understand what i wrote,.. or whatever...  I have no idea,..
anyhow,.. sometimes we all misunderstand, even me... 

[suntech]

That is the nice thing with a forum Brock............... we wouldnt need "General Discussion" it we didnt have any discussions, would we

[hemihead]

at the risk of also getting flamed,..
when i read Hemihead's response above, I thought what post did he read?..  and i reread suntech's post still don't see how hemihead managed to get all offended... 
But ya' know, I've had some folks flame me and no i wont mention names,.. because they simply didn't understand what i wrote,.. or whatever...  I have no idea,..
anyhow,.. sometimes we all misunderstand, even me... 

I guess you didn't get the point . People here say how bad American cars are all the time . They sing high praises for whatever foreign car they own . That's great , fine , dandy . Then they do a 180 and buy a classic Charger . I'm sorry but I find that a bit hypocritical .
And maybe not you suntech but much of Europe and the world hates America but they want American things ( don't take it personally ) .
  And no Brock I'm not offended , just an observation .

[suntech]

No worries Hemihead!! What would a discussion forum be without discussions?? I dont get sore or offended?? I LOVE a good discussion
I honestly dont think many people hate Americans..............They just might agree on some of Michael Moores opinions about the current administration. 

[Mike DC]

   

Mike you talk about an 85 Cavalier ? That thing was junk when new . It was a cheap throw away car . You get what you pay for .

heh heh heh  .  .  .

Hemihead, man, your comment here just made my point about Detroit's mindset problems better than all the paragraphs I wrote. 

You're right, that '85 Crap-a-lier that I had was indeed a "throwaway" model.  And that's exactly the point!  Toyota doesn't think they're building any "throwaway" cars in their lineup.  Their 1980s cheapo 2-liter econoboxes were intended to work just as well & as long as their upscale flagship models of the time.  And that's why Detroit got its ass handed to it by Japan in that era. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I honestly think that Detroit has closed the quality gap now.  The gap is totally gone during the first 3-5 years of ownership for sure, and Japan's edge is never very big or consistent at any time anymore.

I just blame Detroit for letting the quality gap problem fester for so long, and for not realizing the lengths that they need to go to if they ever wanna overturn the public's perception.  I know they're busting their asses on quality in Detroit now (and they must have already been doing it for the last decade if we're seeing the results now).  But it's so late in the game. 



But I do blame Detroit for not being a lot better prepared for the end of the truck/SUV boom though.  They should have known 10 years ago that it was only a matter of time.  Sooner or later they would be forced to survive without that truck/SUV cash-cow evening up the bad sales odds from the car lines.