Need opinions on a new welder

[Rack]

Getting ready to buy a welder pretty soon. Was wondering if some of you experts can help me decide which one to get.

A buddy of mine told me if you want a good one you'll be spending at least 2K, so I guess $2,500 (give or take about 300) is what I'm looking to spend.


Thanks in advance. 

[restoman]

I just bought a Hobart 187, 220 volt machine.
It works extremely nice, almost as good as my 22 year old Miller machine did when it was new.
Very smooth, excellent heat range, and the machine and cart was under $1000.
I got it thru CARQUEST.

[Chatt69chgr]

Several questions to answer first.  Welding steel or aluminum or both?  How thick material in a single pass?  What duty cycle?  110VAC or 220VAC.  Do you know how to weld now?  I am throwing out stick and gas.  So that leaves MIG and TIG.  The MIG is easy to learn how to use.  You get a real nice weld when using shielding gas with it.  The better ones have attachments that you can buy to also weld aluminum (at considerable extra cost).  Most everything on a car can be done with the 200Amp units.  On the MIG welders, you mount a roll of wire in the machine and it's fed thru the cable to the welding torch along with the shielding gas.  For car work (steel), the C25 mixture of CO2 and Argon is best.  You can buy 80 cu ft tanks.  Above this size, they lease them.  You need gloves and a good electronic helmet (not one from Harbor Freight).  You want to be able to buy consumables like tips and nozzles locally.  And you want to consider the fact that in the future you will need repair parts.  So you want to buy from a reputable manufacturer.  TIG will do everything that MIG will but is a lot harder to use (but will weld steel and aluminum with the proper shielding gas with no attachments).  These are not wire fed but, rather, the torch has a tungsten element in it that the arc is struck from.  The shield gas is fed thru the cable from the welder.  You have a control on either the torch that is thumb operated or a foot control that allows you to control the heat (amperage).  The wire is a rod that you feed to the work just like in brazing.  They say it takes a long time to really get good with a TIG (kind of like rubbing your head and patting your stomach).  You can learn how to get by with a MIG in a weekend.  Welding steel or aluminum requires a different gas mix so two bottles (no matter which kind of welder).  I like Miller.  I bought a Millermatic 252 MIG but the 212 would probably have been good enough.  Maybe even the 180.  Got a Miller helmut.  Not sure but I think ITW also owns Hobart.  It's good too.  Miller is made in USA.  Not sure where the Hobart is made.  I'd still like to have a TIG.  You can use the TIG to effectively braze using a silicon bronze rod.  Good for rust holes in roofs.  But I didn't have enough money for both right now.  I think most of the welds on modern cars are MIG welded.  Beautiful welds on something like stainless will have been TIG welded.  I bought my welder from a outfit out of Louisville, KY.  I think it was Welders Source.  B&R Welder is good place to get one too our of Md.  Saved me sales tax which is almost 10% where I live.  I have to say that the local welders supply would have sold to me at the same price but the tax issue was a killer.  I did buy the tank locally along with wire and consumables.  One additional item.  Not sure if they would still do it but I was able to exchange my unused W25 torch for a better Bernard Q300 centerfire at no extra cost.  ITW owns both companies.  For some reason, a year and a half or two ago, they had a program where you could do this.  I called them and they let me do it.  You would just have to ask.   

[Rack]

Wow, interesting questions.

I'm new to welding so I can't answer all of those.


It's going to be used mainly for work on my charger, but also other odds and ends as I get more experience using it I'll want to experiment with it. But mainly for body work on the charger.


The MIG is what my friend recommended. "Easier to use" sounds good to me. I haven't welded anything since 8th grade workshop over 20 years ago.

I've also heard/read that gas gives you a much "cleaner" weld then electric (or something like that).


Lots of good info, Chatt69chgr. I'm learning more and more already. Thanks.

[bsakal]

I have a Snap-On FM140 mig welder. It's awesome. It has 100% duty cycle, and plugs into a 120volt outlet. I have never welded continuously where I needed all 100% of the duty cycle though. The only drawback is the price, it's now over $2g's. You can pick up a used one on Craigslist usually for under a grand.  A friend of mine bought one for $400 in great condition. I bought mine about 10 years ago and it was at least $1500. I've used both the Lincoln and Hobart 120 volt welders, both a good for sheet metal work at home. If I were buying a new one now I would look at a Miller, the price is alot more reasonable than the Snap-On, since I don't weld as much as I used too, but will be soon since I've got sheet metal work to do on the Charger. Good luck on your choice. 

[Daytona R/T SE]

Getting ready to buy a welder pretty soon. Was wondering if some of you experts can help me decide which one to get.

A buddy of mine told me if you want a good one you'll be spending at least 2K, so I guess $2,500 (give or take about 300) is what I'm looking to spend.


Thanks in advance. 

I have the Hobart 140. Shop around and you can pick one up for less than $500. Get the 75/25 Co2/argon gas, throw the flux core wire that comes with it straight into the trash. Set it up and you can do any welding you'll ever need to do to a car with it. It plugs into 120V outlet. Get a good auto-darkening helmet. With a little practice, a monkey could make nice welds with it.

[Rack]

Getting ready to buy a welder pretty soon. Was wondering if some of you experts can help me decide which one to get.

A buddy of mine told me if you want a good one you'll be spending at least 2K, so I guess $2,500 (give or take about 300) is what I'm looking to spend.


Thanks in advance. 

I have the Hobart 140. Shop around and you can pick one up for less than $500. Get the 75/25 Co2/argon gas, throw the flux core wire that comes with it straight into the trash. Set it up and you can do any welding you'll ever need to do to a car with it. It plugs into 120V outlet. Get a good auto-darkening helmet. With a little practice, a monkey could make nice welds with it.

That's a pretty good price.

I think in this case, a monkey would be better at this then I would. 

I'm working on it though.


That hobart is a good price, might not be a bad idea to try that one out and if I don't like it I'm only out $400 (could probably sell it for about $200 so I'd really only be out about $200).

I'm looking at the Millermatic 212 as well. It's for less then 2K so that's cheaper then I was willing to spend as well.

[Mike DC]

You should understand the Duty Cycle issue when you're shopping for a decent welder.  It really changes the prices on welders that otherwise seem like they should cost the same. 


I'm not saying you necessearily NEED the higher duty cycle, but you should understand what the difference is. 

 

[Rack]

You should understand the Duty Cycle issue when you're shopping for a decent welder.  It really changes the prices on welders that otherwise seem like they should cost the same. 


I'm not saying you necessearily NEED the higher duty cycle, but you should understand what the difference is. 

 

Thanks, Mike. I'll start researching it.

From what I understand now, the duty cycle means how long it can go non-stop? Maybe before it overheats? That's my understanding of it so far, but I'm gonna do more research.

[Troy]

I have been doing a TON of research on this very subject. I'd also skip any stick/arc welder and go straight to Mig or Tig. Tig is going to be extremely expensive and it's harder to learn to do correctly so that deters most people. It seems to be the general consensus that a 110 volt Mig unit will do most any "normal" metal repair on a car. The two most popular brands for the home hobbyist are Hobart and Lincoln (unfortunately, Miller usually prices themselves out of this market and the product isn't clearly better). Both offer a 140 amp unit but with different features and there doesn't seem to be a definitive "winner". Both are about the same price, have roughly the same features, have lots of support, and you can buy repair parts/consumables locally. Be aware that the Lincoln that is sold at Lowes is different than their other retail welders AND that they also sell many models with continuous voltage control (model number ends with a 'C'). The price goes up accordingly so make sure you compare all the specs. I've seen a few barely used ones on Craigs List for $300-400 and there's a few good eBay sellers as well with great pricing on both brands.

Since I'm a "best bang for the buck guy" AND I have 220 outlets in my garage I've been looking at the lower end 220 volt models. The Hobart Handler 187 is getting rave reviews and I've seen them selling for barely $150 more than the 140. The advantage is that the welder won't be working overtime to weld something thick. Of course, I only need to weld sheet metal so I could likely go with the lowest end 110 volt model and be fine. I just never know when I may need to repair a Caterpillar D9 though...

The gas used in the Mig process helps to produce a cleaner weld. It is called "shielding gas" because it keeps impurities out of the molten metal - presumably to create a stronger weld. From a beginner's perspective, the primary difference between Mig and Arc welding is the amount of cleanup. Welding creates a lot of "spatter" (but arc welding creates the most) and you have to grind it all down. Tig has the least amount of cleanup but, as I said, the expense and learning curve are usually too much for the casual hobbyist. Also note that different gas mixtures provide different results. I think most will recommend an Argon mix for cars/sheet metal.

Troy

[Rack]

Thanks Troy! That really clears a lot of things up for me.


Also, I had understood that the Lincoln was the overpriced product and that Miller was a little cheaper. I had it backwards.

[supserdave]

We have a hobart 180, the 187 is the updated model. It's been a great welder and we haven't had any problems so far. If your just going to be welding car related stuff It will do everything you need all they way up to a roll cage.

If you plan to do heavier structural or agricultural welding, I'd step up to a 250 amp model. I use a Lincoln 250 at work and its awesome!

[Mike DC]

 
If you haven't already made up your mind, I'd vote to forget about doing any flux-core MIG work on cars.  Go directly to the gas bottle right out of the gate. 

The flux core method technically still works, but it makes a mess of slaggy stuff behind on all the welds.  And for chemical reasons that stuff has to be entirely removed before you can put any paint/primer/bondo on the metal.  Flux-core welding w/o a gas bottle is just more trouble than it's worth IMO. 

[Rack]

We have a hobart 180, the 187 is the updated model. It's been a great welder and we haven't had any problems so far. If your just going to be welding car related stuff It will do everything you need all they way up to a roll cage.

If you plan to do heavier structural or agricultural welding, I'd step up to a 250 amp model. I use a Lincoln 250 at work and its awesome!

You mean including the roll cage, or you can't do the roll cage with the 187?

If you haven't already made up your mind, I'd vote to forget about doing any flux-core MIG work on cars.  Go directly to the gas bottle right out of the gate. 

The flux core method technically still works, but it makes a mess of slaggy stuff behind on all the welds.  And for chemical reasons that stuff has to be entirely removed before you can put any paint/primer/bondo on the metal.  Flux-core welding w/o a gas bottle is just more trouble than it's worth IMO.

I had decided on the Hobart 187 (figured I'd get the less expensive one to start out with and go from there).

What do you mean "w/o a gas bottle"? Now I'm confused. 

[supserdave]

Yes, you could weld a roll cage in a car with a 187 no problem. I think he means using flux core wire w/o gas. I would use solid wire with gas.

They do give you a sample of flux core wire with the welder. I used it to weld up a hitch on a trailer we made, it worked fine for that.

[Rack]

Yes, you could weld a roll cage in a car with a 187 no problem. I think he means using flux core wire w/o gas. I would use solid wire with gas.

They do give you a sample of flux core wire with the welder. I used it to weld up a hitch on a trailer we made, it worked fine for that.

So I wouldn't be able to do flux-core welding with a gas bottle on the car using the Hobart Handler 187?

Confussion is returning...


I just talked to a friend's dad who knows alot more about this stuff than I do. He said I'd be better off using an arc welder. From what I understand the MIG uses metal from an alternate source to join two separate pieces of metal. An arc welder "fuses" two existing pieces of metal together. Seems that arc welding increases the chance of warping metal, plus it doesn't seem like a good idea to use on anything that would be "Visible". I'm guessing MIG welding is something that has started to be used more recently (last 20 years or so) in body work. Just a guess.


But I'm still confused about flux-core welding using gas on the car itslef. I thought the gas came out "automatically" as a shielding agent. So that I could use gas when - for example - welding in my floor pans. So there's a way to use the welder w/o the gas?

Bear with me fellas, believe it or not, this stuff is starting to sink in.


My buddy's dad even told me to call the power company to let them know why max amps I'd need so they can come change out the transformer. I never would have thought of that.

[supserdave]

Here goes. Basically you either use flux core wire, or solid wire and gas. The flux and gas do the same thing, remove the oxygen from your welds.

Flux core will work fine on a car, but I don't think it would work very good on sheet metal. If you had to weld frame connectors in or something it would work ok. It does give you a messy weld, lots of splatter.

But in a nutshell, you either need flux core wire, or gas, not both.

[Rack]

Here goes. Basically you either use flux core wire, or solid wire and gas. The flux and gas do the same thing, remove the oxygen from your welds.

Flux core will work fine on a car, but I don't think it would work very good on sheet metal. If you had to weld frame connectors in or something it would work ok. It does give you a messy weld, lots of splatter.

But in a nutshell, you either need flux core wire, or gas, not both.

Ok that clears up a bit.


When you say "Solid Wire" are you referring to an alternate source? A wire NOT fed through the "nozzle"? So it would basically be like using a soldering iron? How would the gas be involved?


I'm gonna read up on this, I think I'm understanding this wrong.

But it is starting to sink in a little. I'm starting to get it.

[Rack]

Ok after a little bit of reading, here's what I think I got...


Flux core doesn't require gas cuz it contains ingredients within the flux core that produce a shielding gas when introduced to high heat. I'm guessing this is "Ok" but not as good as having shielding gas directly involved?

Also, from what I understand, you can still use gas with flux-core wire, right?


Summary... either the flux-core or solid will both be fed through the contact tip, only one has it's own type of "shielding" with it (flux core) and the other uses the shielding gas externally (Solid wire). Is that right? So it's just a matter of using a different type of wire?

Or am I way off?

[supserdave]

Nope, I mean solid wire fed through the nozzle. "Flux wire" has the flux in the middle or core of the wire. Solid wire is exactly that, a solid wire.

Solid wire with gas is probably used in 99% of mig welders.

[Rack]

Nope, I mean solid wire fed through the nozzle. "Flux wire" has the flux in the middle or core of the wire. Solid wire is exactly that, a solid wire.

Solid wire with gas is probably used in 99% of mig welders.

Ok That's what I thought it was (eventually). Good to know.

From what I've been reading, flux-core is mainly only good for outdoor/windy conditions cuz you don't have to worry about the wind blowing the gas away, and that it requires less skill to do.

Alrighty then, got that part figured out.

Now I know exactly what Mike was referring to. When he said "Forget about the flux-core MIG work on cars" I thought he meant forget about the MIG welder altogether. Now I know. I got it now.

I'm not as dumb as I look, I promise.


If anything, I should maybe only do some flux-core welding on scrap metal just to get the hang of it, then move up to solid wire/gas work, then onto work on my car?

It feels good when you learn something new.


Still trying to figure out why my friends dad thinks it's better to use an arc welder on body work instead of a MIG. It seems that maybe arc welding may "hold" Better, but that a MIG welder would do less harm to your car (warpage) and will hold just fine for that application.


Thanks, Supersdave, you've been a HUGE help getting this to sink into my brain. That goes for everyone else. I really feel I have a decent understand of this now.

Now I just have to get the welder (gonna go with the Hobart Hander 187) and actually learn how to physically use it.

[supserdave]

I have no idea why he thinks an arc would be better. Maybe go over and have him show you why its better?

I agree with your plan, get some scrap and practice with the flux core stuff. That way you can get your feet wet and you'll be a pro before you know it!

[Rack]

I have no idea why he thinks an arc would be better. Maybe go over and have him show you why its better?

I agree with your plan, get some scrap and practice with the flux core stuff. That way you can get your feet wet and you'll be a pro before you know it!

I have no idea either. He even said most shops don't use MIG welders, but from what I understand, most of them do use MIGs (or TIGs).

He hasn't done work on cars in a lot of years so I was thinking maybe MIGs were something relatively new?

[Troy]

I can't think of anyone who uses an arc welder for auto body repair. Frames maybe, lawn tractors probably, ans steel trusses definitely - but not body panels. Mig is nice because, when welding sheet metal on a car, you don't weld a solid bead all the way down the panel. You do it in short steps where you "tack" the metal a small bit then move to another location. This is easy with a Mig because (once you've dialed in the right voltage and wire feed settings) you just point the gun and squeeze the trigger. This keeps the heat from building up in one spot. Too much heat and you'll "oil can" the metal and then it's a royal pain to get flat again. You *could* probably weld from one end to the other with a Tig because the heat control is so much better but you'd need a lot of practice first. Guys at the airport where I had my cars could weld an aluminum can back together with almost no seam.

I know at least one person here who still uses a torch to "hammer weld" body panels but I REALLY don't recommend that for a novice.

Troy

[Rack]

That's what I thought, Troy.


I won't bother mentioning it to him cuz I don't want to get him stirred up. He's got a temper and a bad heart... a bad combination. I just say "Yes sir" and then try and find the right answer.

Most of the info he gave me was very useful though. He didn't convince me to switch to a 4-speed and drop the automatic (which I had been thinking of doing anyway).