This just makes me mad (tag fraud/rebody rant)

[dkn1997]

At the Norwalk show a guy flat out told me he "found a better car" and swapped all his numbers to it. I hadn't talked to him for more than a few minutes at the time. He didn't know me and he obviously had no idea that he had done anything wrong. That isn't half as bad as the engine builder (who is no longer working on my engine due to other "issues") who told me he could stamp any numbers I wanted on my block to make it "numbers matching". He definitely knew better but made the comment that he does it all the time. I know people were faking these cars back in the 80s during the last muscle car boom so who knows how many cars from then are still around after a few different owners who still think their car is all original?

Troy

Hey troy, that guy who you bought the bronze charger from by me had his buddy there the night I looked at it.  They were talking about restamping engine blocks to on someone's GTO.  they seemed to have no problem with it at all.  I just shook my head and walked away.

just amazing. 

[Ghoste]

As I said, I'm not sure to what extent he's going.  I know the uncle and I know that he definitely knows it needs those numbers.  I also know that he's one of the slimiest "car guys" (I use the term very loosely) I've ever met.  I wish he was into Fords or Volvos or something.  As to grinding down the numbers, the car is on a rotisserie, it wouldn't be hard to cut out the offending metal and put in a virgin piece to stamp in whatever numbers you need.  I had a car once that I cut the rad cradle out to make engine swaps easier.  I saw the car a few years ago and someone had restored it and replaced the cut out piece and you would not know without careful examination (no number fraud involved in that case btw).
For all I know the kid is buying those parts with it stamped in as well, I've heard of some of the Mopars in an envelope coming with those now.
Who knows.  I am going to try and track this one though since it's local to me.  Or at least I think it is, for all I know the kid lives in New Mexico. 

[SFRT]

It is sort of sad. My business deals with collectible type items in other fields of hobby, and I am always amazed at the lengths people will go to to make a fake...sometimes to the point of losing money over finding the real thing. I  was lucky enough to find a real  440 4 SP  R/T that is 80% original, even though all I was looking for was a 4 speed.. Unfortunately it doesnt have the original engine, steering wheel or the original passenger door, ( does that count as 20% ?)but otherwise its all there. First thing I tell everyone is that the engine is not the original...just to calm them down. Then again, I didnt get the car to flip it, but to bring it back for my personal pleasure. It seems to me that being 'numbers obsessed' to the point of living a lie is pretty creepy. It should be about pleasure in a cool machine and not 'value'.
Also it seems just..stupid..because the level of people that are in that upper echelon of real matching hemi cars would more or less instantly spot it as a fake..so...seems like a pretty ass backwards way to make a buck or 'impress the yokels'.

[Ghoste]

I'll disagree slightly with the last part.  I do a little part time work with a classic car auction company and I am constantly amazed at the number of people with lots enough money to buy the "cool" toys but come to the party totally unprepared.  Many of them will employ "experts" to advise and/or purchase on their behalf but there is shady market of expertise for sale out there too.
To be sure there are a number of Tim Welborn types out there who love and know the cars first and can afford them second but you would be astounded at the number of people who lay out the cash blindly.  (which of course why so many people make crappy fakes- it's because they can)

[SFRT]

I know your right, but somehow it seems like a hollow 'victory'...if thats your bag, having some sort of fake 'perfect rare car'..because at some point your only going to get owned by some guy that has a real one, and then what do you have? I guess though the scammers can just keep bottom feeding or whatever. On some basic level the whole 'race to the top' seems kind of weird anyways. Personally I am a lot more into cars that are built to function. I am having no problem replacing 'original' stuff with new components and being honest about it. Seems to me to be more 'real' that way anyhow, but my trip is more 'hotroddy' than anything else so my build up of the car is prolly going to be considered 'impure' anyways. heh. but it will be fun. In the last 2 weeks the whole rotten ass end has been sliced out and replaced. so I guess the car is now only 60% 'original'.

I wonder if eventually an entire new category will be created where guys just keep em junky and 100% original.

[rav440]

 http://www.hamtramck-historical.com/VINfraud/VINfraudFed.shtml

Federal VIN Laws


From the U.S. Code Online via GPO Access
[wais.access.gpo.gov]
[Laws in effect as of January 20, 2004]
[Document not affected by Public Laws enacted between
January 20, 2004 and December 23, 2004]
[CITE: 18USC511]


TITLE 18--CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE

PART I--CRIMES

CHAPTER 25--COUNTERFEITING AND FORGERY

Sec. 511. Altering or removing motor vehicle identification
numbers

(a) A person who--
(1) knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters an
identification number for a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part; or
(2) with intent to further the theft of a motor vehicle,
knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or
device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle
Theft Prevention Act,

shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years, or
both.
(b)(1) Subsection (a) of this section does not apply to a removal,
obliteration, tampering, or alteration by a person specified in
paragraph (2) of this subsection (unless such person knows that the
vehicle or part involved is stolen).
(2) The persons referred to in paragraph (1) of this subsection
are--
(A) a motor vehicle scrap processor or a motor vehicle
demolisher who complies with applicable State law with respect to
such vehicle or part;
(B) a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal,
obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for
the repair;
(C) a person who restores or replaces an identification number
for such vehicle or part in accordance with applicable State law;
and
(D) a person who removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a
decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor
Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, if that person is the owner of the
motor vehicle, or is authorized to remove, obliterate, tamper with
or alter the decal or device by--
(i) the owner or his authorized agent;
(ii) applicable State or local law; or
(iii) regulations promulgated by the Attorney General to
implement the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act.

(c) As used in this section, the term--
(1) ``identification number'' means a number or symbol that is
inscribed or affixed for purposes of identification under chapter
301 and part C of subtitle VI of title 49;
(2) ``motor vehicle'' has the meaning given that term in section
32101 of title 49;
(3) ``motor vehicle demolisher'' means a person, including any
motor vehicle dismantler or motor vehicle recycler, who is engaged
in the business of reducing motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts to
metallic scrap that is unsuitable for use as either a motor vehicle
or a motor vehicle part;
(4) ``motor vehicle scrap processor'' means a person--
(A) who is engaged in the business of purchasing motor
vehicles or motor vehicle parts for reduction to metallic scrap
for recycling;
(B) who, from a fixed location, uses machinery to process
metallic scrap into prepared grades; and
(C) whose principal product is metallic scrap for recycling;

but such term does not include any activity of any such person
relating to the recycling of a motor vehicle or a motor vehicle part
as a used motor vehicle or a used motor vehicle part.

(d) For purposes of subsection (a) of this section, the term
``tampers with'' includes covering a program decal or device affixed to
a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act for
the purpose of obstructing its visibility.

(Added Pub. L. 98-547, title II, Sec. 201(a), Oct. 25, 1984, 98 Stat.
2768; amended Pub. L. 103-272, Sec. 5(e)(3), July 5, 1994, 108 Stat.
1373; Pub. L. 103-322, title XXII, Sec. 220003(a)-(c), Sept. 13, 1994,
108 Stat. 2076, 2077; Pub. L. 104-294, title VI, Sec. 604(b)(, Oct.
11, 1996, 110 Stat. 3507.)

References in Text

The Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, referred to in subsecs.
(a)(2), (b)(2)(D), and (d), is title XXII of Pub. L. 103-322, Sept. 13,
1994, 108 Stat. 2074, which enacted section 511A of this title and
section 14171 of Title 42, The Public Health and Welfare, amended this
section, and enacted provisions set out as a note under section 13701 of
Title 42. For complete classification of this Act to the Code, see Short
Title note set out under section 13701 of Title 42 and Tables.

Codification

Another section 511 was renumbered section 513 of this title.


Amendments

1996--Subsec. (b)(2)(D). Pub. L. 104-294 realigned margins.
1994--Subsec. (a). Pub. L. 103-322, Sec. 220003(a), amended subsec.
(a) generally. Prior to amendment, subsec. (a) read as follows:
``Whoever knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters an
identification number for a motor vehicle, or motor vehicle part, shall
be fined not more than $10,000 or imprisoned not more than five years,
or both.''
Subsec. (b)(2)(D). Pub. L. 103-322, Sec. 220003(b), added subpar.
(D).
Subsec. (c)(1). Pub. L. 103-272, Sec. 5(e)(3)(A), substituted
``chapter 301 and part C of subtitle VI of title 49'' for ``the National
Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act of 1966, or the Motor Vehicle
Information and Cost Savings Act''.
Subsec. (c)(2). Pub. L. 103-272, Sec. 5(e)(3)(B), substituted
``section 32101 of title 49'' for ``section 2 of the Motor Vehicle
Information and Cost Savings Act''.
Subsec. (d). Pub. L. 103-322, Sec. 220003(c), added subsec. (d).


Effective Date of 1996 Amendment

Amendment by Pub. L. 104-294 effective Sept. 13, 1994, see section
604(d) of Pub. L. 104-294, set out as a note under section 13 of this
title.

[UFO]

Vin's were definitely available back in the 80's.About '85 or so I had the opportunity to buy a cuda AAR or a 70 hemi charger.Not positive on color combo's.I'm sure that paperwork is still here somewere.

[Mike DC]

 
I think the whole issue is due to the old car hobby's over-obsession with "matching numbers" rather than just looking at the big picture of the whole car.



Chew on this:

Let's say I have two triple-black '69 Chargers that are both very original.  One is a very nice surviving low-mileage 383 car, and the other is a rusted-to-hell-and-back 440 car that's bending in half.

If I swap the 440 drivetrain into the 383 car and have the best of everything, it's a "only a clone."  It's supposedly not even worth as much as either car would have potentially been worth fixed up.

But if I hack the pristine low-mileage 383 car to shreds so I can weld together the remains of the 440 car (along with another 1000 pounds of Chinese repro metal & parts), then this is the correct way to do things in this hobby to "save a real original" Charger R/T.     

 

[snooter]

this type of behaviour is prevalent everywhere...why i will not buy off ebay unless car is close and can be inspected...its a sad world anymore and this hobby of ours is wrought with fraudulant individuals...caveat emperior (buyer beware)

[Ghoste]

Ah but Mike,if you swap the 440 drivetrain into the pristine 383 car and then change the numbers over as well, now what have you got?

[hemigeno]

That isn't half as bad as the engine builder (who is no longer working on my engine due to other "issues") who told me he could stamp any numbers I wanted on my block to make it "numbers matching". He definitely knew better but made the comment that he does it all the time.

If I mentioned the name of the nationally-known car restorer who readily volunteered to do just that for my Daytona (and said that it was no problem to do), you guys would be ASTOUNDED. 

Oh, and it is not the guy who is restoring my car now... 

[Troy]

Oh, and I forgot the guy who sold me a bunch of 69 Charger parts who mentioned that he had a clear title to the VIN plate on the dash and also knew where the original 440 was. He is also a restorer but deals in Studebakers instead of Mopars (long story).

Troy

[Alaskan_TA]

And some people wonder why I can be such a hard nosed SOB when it comes to VIN fraud. It is everywhere, I see it daily. 

Barry

[Old Moparz]

And some people wonder why I can be such a hard nosed SOB when it comes to VIN fraud. It is everywhere, I see it daily. 

Barry

Hey Barry, I remember reading one of the many arguments on Moparts not long ago, where you almost seemed to be one of the few people against tag swaps. (I'm on your side by the way.) I know there are a lot of people against it, but it surprises me how many people are in favor of it & how obvious they make it.

There is a Mopar only parts vendor who's been in the hobby for years. (Advertises in magazines now too.) He has a decent reputation, but I've known him personally since the early 1980's & have heard from several people that he has had some questionable dealings with cars that have had their true status come into question. (VIN tags & swapping.) I've never had any personal dealings with him on this, so I can't say, or post for sure whether it's true, but I do believe it based on some other things I'm aware of. Let's just say I would never buy a rare car from him or anybody he's associated with. 

The VIN tag swapping, or "rebody" as some like to call it, gives the hobby a black eye. I know some people love the numbers matching part of the hobby, & I can respect that, but that's not for me.

[The70RT]

There's probably a lot more rebodied or fake GM's out there since it would be easier to do. I'm glad I got my Charger 30 years ago and know it is legit. My engine is a factory replcement with no numbers on the pad. I have the reciept from the dealership and WILL NOT be stamping the pad. The reciept showing the work should be good enough for most......but It won't be for sale in my lifetime anyway.

[69_500]

I don't like even the thought of cutting up a good car in todays hobby to replace quarters on a rusty real R/T, or HEMI car. With the replacement sheetmetal that is avaialble today it seems pretty crazy to hack up a perefectly good car. Now granted there are several parts that aren't being reproduced, but for quarters, or such its just stupid if you ask me.

Gene I hear where your coming from about some big name restoration shops offering to restamp motors, transmissions, or even help with the replacing of numbers on trunk lips and radiator core supports. I wonder though if any of them actually think that there aren't ways to tell if the engine has been restamped? Or if anyone who buys one of these cars even takes the time to figure that out?

[Ghoste]

I wonder though if any of them actually think that there aren't ways to tell if the engine has been restamped? Or if anyone who buys one of these cars even takes the time to figure that out?

From my experience, not very many.

[leeandgrant]

Well, i am not one of those reboding frauds. I have a numbers matching 68 charger 318, 904 auto. we are the fourth documented owners. We know just about everything about the car since it left the factory in august of 1967. Now we are CLONING a 70 coronet into a 440 4speed super bee monster. when we get done it will still wear its 70 coronet 318 vin and optionless fender tag.  

[Ghoste]

And you deserve to be commended for that. 

[HeavyFuel]

 
I think the whole issue is due to the old car hobby's over-obsession with "matching numbers" rather than just looking at the big picture of the whole car.



Chew on this:

Let's say I have two triple-black '69 Chargers that are both very original.  One is a very nice surviving low-mileage 383 car, and the other is a rusted-to-hell-and-back 440 car that's bending in half.

If I swap the 440 drivetrain into the 383 car and have the best of everything, it's a "only a clone."  It's supposedly not even worth as much as either car would have potentially been worth fixed up.

But if I hack the pristine low-mileage 383 car to shreds so I can weld together the remains of the 440 car (along with another 1000 pounds of Chinese repro metal & parts), then this is the correct way to do things in this hobby to "save a real original" Charger R/T.     

 

I know a guy that is doing this, except his car is a triple black GTX.  He has the original, numbers 4 speed car, but it is wasted.  He also has a very nice "donor" car. (or "recipient" car, however you want to look at it)  The ID material is coming off the cancer case and going onto a mint generic.  The argument (not mine) for the swap is that he owns both cars. 

I say it is still shady because although it does make perfect sense to keep a nice car together and get rid of the POS, there is a definate financial advantage by not having to fix up a basket case into a high end muscle car.  If the car is ever sold, the truth should be told and the price tag on the car should reflect all the facts.

[Alaskan_TA]

If he moves the numbers to the donor car, it is illegal. if he sells it, that is also a crime.

[Mike DC]

Any swapping of the VIN or fender tags is fraululent as far as I'm concerned.  No exceptions.  (Well, unless maybe you have to replace just that section of the unibody because of accident damage, and the other 3/4 of the unibody is still the original one for those numbers to be on.)


 
The point I raised earlier is that I think it's a tactical mistake (for the hobby as a whole) to value matching digits over a less-molested original car in cases like that.  I don't feel I have the right to fool anyone over what I'm selling because of my opinion on this, but it's personal preference.  It's the mindset that I buy my own cars with. 

 


 

[Bandit72]

Being in the Mopar Resto Business I've been asked to do this But wont do it. Because of this I have lost business & they'll go find someone else that will do it for them. The people that want it done say whats the big deal, every body does it. Some people see absolutely nothing wrong with this. Changing Vin#'s aint any different then changing your socks or Underwear some seem to think. I think the problem is much bigger then any body realizes or can imagine. LEON.

Its out of control in the old Dodge truck world. They get away with it all the time. Frame #'s dont match serial tags.   Have a title/VIN but no truck..go find a truck with no title and swap it. And for some reason stuff pass's state inspection or gets thru customs on the Canada border. They look at the paper work and the VIN/Serial# tag phillip screwed into the door jam and all is well.  I have probably come across 50 various situations where illegal activity is going on. If its that easy for me to do I would think the law could set up a sting and bust people left and right but no one seems to care. Titles and Serial#/VIN's are sold on ebay every day.  I've called people out on stuff on the open forum and have got my ass kicked bad by lots of people who see nothing wrong with it on the forums.


Todd

i am guilty of this unfortunatly...we used to use old sweptline era dodge's on our farms all the time and we came across one that had an excellent motor tranny, body, but the title was MIA and nobody could track down the last registered owner...so we went out to our junk pile and found a truck the same year and simply swapped the tag...it wasn't to make a quick buck or anything like that, it was simply we needed a truck, and had a good one almost haned to us but w/out a title....

oh well...guilty as charged....

[Ghoste]

I don't find that offensive at all even though some may say it makes me a hypocrite.  The ones that make me mad are the guys who are doing it precisely for the value of the vehicle whether they "intend" to sell it or not.

[MichaelRW]

So the moral of this thread is to stay away from any numbers matching car that doesn't back it up with a build sheet. Or are those being faked too?