Hemi Charger Restoration thread (Updated 5/28/10 - Nearly complete!!!)

[69_500]

Origional sheet metal from a donor rust free car vs the new aftermarket sheetmetal? Your asking which is going to be worth more money? If its a good shop, no one would ever know what it was, repro or origional. No way to tell. The new panels that are available are as close to origional as you can get without it being origional. We aren't talking about the flimsy patch panels that were avaialble for years.

And as far as if I had a HEMI R/T that was rusty and needed repair, and had a rust free 383 car to repair it with would I cut it up? ABSOLUTELY NOT.

[0X01B8]

There's got to be a more suitable donor car out there...  Almost nobody can afford a hemi car, so why cut up (what appears to be) a potentially sweet ride for somebody on a smaller budget?  383 cars need love too...

[jeff69]

If there is no way to tell between aftermarket, or replaced by a donor car then I think you might want to save the 383 car. I mean after the restored Hemi makes you some money just restore the 383 car, and have something fun to drive around. You started without a car and if everything falls into place you probably could have a great 383 car for nothing!   

[RT/SE]

BZ,

What about selling the 383 4 speed car after you have stripped off all the parts you need for your Hemi restoration project.  I'm sure you would be able to get enough money to cover the costs the new full quarter panels currently available and whatever other sheetmetal/structural metal parts would would need for your project.  I sure there are many members on the board who would love to own a factory 383 4spd Charger.  That 383 4spd car looks very solid - factory 4 speed Charger are hard to come by.  I think the 383 4spd car should be saved.  Because the car is so solid, I think you would have no problem getting very good money for the car even with all the parts stripped off.  I honestly would love to see both cars restored to their former glory.  What a great story that would be - some day both cars could be shown side by side. I realize it is totally your decision but please give things careful thought before you cut up the 383 4 speed car.   Good luck with your project..........RT/SE

[The70RT]

Like he stated earlier he needed a roof, obviously quarters and tail panel. I'm sure his trunk needs replaced by looking at the roof and top of the quarters........so not much left from the donar car except some frame rails and floors. It would be kinda rough saving it after all those parts are removed. I guess by selling the front clip and doors he could recoup some unless they are better than what he has?

[RT/SE]

Hey the70RT,

I meant selling the 383 4 spd as a rolling shell (before the roof + tailpanel etc is chopped off) .  A solid rolling shell 383 4 speed car is a great starting point for a project even if it missing parts.  The money obtained from the sale could fund purchase of the quarters, roof, tail panel etc for the Hemi car.  I'm sure someone out there has a solid roof for sale + any other parts you may need if you put the word out.  This plan would allow both cars to be saved.  Just my thoughts...........RT/SE

[69bronzeT5]

so not much left from the donar car except some frame rails and floors. It would be kinda rough saving it after all those parts are removed.

I need a left rear frame rail, a torsion bar crossmember and where the door hinges mount on the left side  

[The70RT]

Hey the70RT,

I meant selling the 383 4 spd as a rolling shell (before the roof + tailpanel etc is chopped off) .  A solid rolling shell 383 4 speed car is a great starting point for a project even if it missing parts.  The money obtained from the sale could fund purchase of the quarters, roof, tail panel etc for the Hemi car.  I'm sure someone out there has a solid roof for sale + any other parts you may need if you put the word out.  This plan would allow both cars to be saved.  Just my thoughts...........RT/SE

I agree......but he bought the 383 car for the parts and they are both in the same shop so......

[69_500]

Hey the70RT,

I meant selling the 383 4 spd as a rolling shell (before the roof + tailpanel etc is chopped off) .  A solid rolling shell 383 4 speed car is a great starting point for a project even if it missing parts.  The money obtained from the sale could fund purchase of the quarters, roof, tail panel etc for the Hemi car.  I'm sure someone out there has a solid roof for sale + any other parts you may need if you put the word out.  This plan would allow both cars to be saved.  Just my thoughts...........RT/SE

I agree......but he bought the 383 car for the parts and they are both in the same shop so......

Not trying to be a smart ass but that last line doesn't hold up to well if you change the scenario to something other than cars. IE

A man walks into a bank to get some money, he owns a gun so...........

Just because they are in the same shop doesn't mean that you have to use that, and that is the only way to do it. I think that people are just trying to say that there are always more than one way to solve this scenario. I understand that here is a timeframe that you are wanting to complete the car in, and that there is a limit to the amount of funding that is available. However I think that others are trying to point out that it would actually be more cost effective to use alternative methods of getting panels to repair the HEMI car without tearing up a perfectly fine rolling chassis. Yes there are people who would love the other car as a project car in and of itself. yes there are company making perfectly fine replacement panels today. Yes YOU CAN FIND rust free roofs to use, just takes a little time and searching to find them.

[bzabodyn]

Alright guys - in a perfect world, I would have enough money to do BOTH cars now (383 - driver quality; HEMI - show quality), but I obviously don't have nearly enough funds to work on the 383 car too. So that option's out of the question - trust me, I've THOROUGHLY looked into it...

In addition, this car did come with a NOM 402 stroker and 4-speed  (both completed/somewhat detailed) that I plan on coupling up and selling to help the costs - so I'm into a body and a whole lot of parts for probably about $5-6k... now the financial decision really takes over and I don't have a choice but to "utilize" the donor car. 

69_500 - after extensive conversations with several Mopar "experts" (including Galen of course), the value is affected somewhat on using original sheet metal vs. repro sheet metal - and regardless, the potential buyer WOULD know what exactly was done because every step is being photodocumented by the shop doing the work... and I don't know of any collector that would purchase a car of this nature without thoroughly researching the car's restoration process...

I remember someone talking shit about doing a "rebody" and if I COULD do that, that would solve all my problems... I get a perfect body for the HEMI and someone else could fight with the body of my car for their 383 project (which would probably NOT be a winning proposition from a financial perspective due to the body work needed)...

[bzabodyn]

What numbers are you using to come up with 1 out of 207 or the 1 of possibly 10? Color combinations or what? I'm assuming its the color combination coupled with the engine and transmission.

1 of 432 - 426 HEMI cars built for MY 1969
1 of 207 - 426 HEMI, 4-speed cars (a definite)
1 of XX - 426 HEMI, 4-speed, super track pack cars (the "10-12" number)
1 of X - 426 HEMI, 4-speed, super track pack, red/black/black color combo

XX & X - TBD by Galen... by 1969chargerregistry.com's numbers, they only have 42 registered (R/T HEMI - no designation of Auto or 4-speed), and mine is only the 3rd R4 red one registered (for what it's worth)... that's all I know as far as the numbers...

BZ

[bzabodyn]

With regards to the folks saying not to cut up the donor car - I'd bet if it were you're HemiCharger ready to be restored, you'd be doin' the same thing!

Go ahead and cut it up, there are plenty of them out there.

Lets see.  If I had a rusty HEMI 4spd charger R/T and a near rust free 383 charger.   I would cut it up too.   No matter what. Its orig sheet metal vrs repro sheet metal.    Whats going to be worth more in the end??

Thanks for the reassuring words guys - not much support for my decision-making around here...

BZ

[69charger2002]

how about you give me the rust free shell, i give you any metal you need off a parts car and i'll buy you repro metal for the rest? then both can be saved.. the repro metal is much better quality now, and is worth using even on a hemi car. i don't mean to give a negative opinion but 39 years later, i say all good bodies that have made it this long deserve to be restored.. /6 or hemi car or 318. doesn't matter.
trav

[472 R/T SE]

Thanks for the reassuring words guys - not much support for my decision-making around here...

BZ

Surely you're not that naive into thinking you're gonna have everyone agree with the route you're taking. 

[Shakey]

With regards to the folks saying not to cut up the donor car - I'd bet if it were you're HemiCharger ready to be restored, you'd be doin' the same thing!

Go ahead and cut it up, there are plenty of them out there.

Lets see.  If I had a rusty HEMI 4spd charger R/T and a near rust free 383 charger.   I would cut it up too.   No matter what. Its orig sheet metal vrs repro sheet metal.    Whats going to be worth more in the end??

Thanks for the reassuring words guys - not much support for my decision-making around here...

BZ

You'll learn that no matter what, as Mike had stated, not everyone will agree with you.  When it comes to decision making, make your choices and decide whether or not you'd like to post your decision here.

You'll find that many folks will wait for others to reply to see which bandwagon to jump on as there are safety in numbers, you can see this in numerous threads on numerous forums around the www.  You'll also find many jealous/envious folks that will want to poke at you as much as possible no matter what decision you make simply because you have something that they wished they had had.

All the best with the restoration and as mentioned, keep us updated with progress photos.

[PocketThunder]

I've got a pretty good roof on my parts car if you want to sell me that 383 car when you are done with it.

Paul
in St. Paul

[jeff69]

I hope you were not refering to my comments being on the bandwagon! I just know going from owning an R4 1969 R/T 440 to not having one sucks big bull balls! The thought of owning 2 rare cars to nothing would be even worse!

If it were 15 or 20 years ago no one would bat an eye at cutting a car to save a Hemi car, but with help of aftermarket metal at least you now have options. Project cars in good condition are hard to come by, so think about it.

[0X01B8]

Now here's what a donor car looks like!  You need a roof, right?   

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Dodge-Charger_W0QQitemZ320202286392QQihZ011QQcategoryZ6199QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[bzabodyn]

I had the chance to talk to both Galen and the owner of American Classic Cars today - and everything's a go with Galen's blessing... so that's that.  Galen said it was tough to see the donor car in that type of shape, but he also said he thought we had a great plan detailed out for utilizing it and he strongly recommends using original sheet metal over repro sheet metal and properly documenting every square inch of the body repair...  He did say he would have felt stronger about using the body if it had the original motor... however, I will be selling the 402 stroker motor and A833 4-speed out of the car in the upcoming months (if I don't find something else to put it in), because that will basically be about the only thing we are not going to try to utilize off the donor car...

He will be faxing me the preliminary visual inspection report, options list, registry letter, decoding, etc. later today and did say he is going to be able to reproduce an accurate fender tag from the broadcast sheet and visual inspection.  I'll post the information in the next few days (maybe  )...

Only other alternative is to just stay off the boards altogether and let you see the finished product... but I'm a nicer guy than that.

BZ

[69_500]

I'm not trying to nit pick anything here just stating an opinion. I have talked to several people about the same scenario your in as well, (side note this was long before this whole thread came about too, was a hypothetical then) and many were on both sides of the argument. Many felt no need at all to cut up a good rolling body, others did. I personally am on the side of not cutting it up. I have seem many many many auctions of cars after they have been restored, and I can tell you that unless it is all origional sheet metal to that car it doesn't amount to hardly anything in resale terms. Now if its a car that retains 99% of its own origional sheetmetal, then yes there is a price difference, but I have yet to see any significant price difference in a car that has been restored using quarters from another car, or repro quarters. Once its been replaced its been replaced.

As far as the making an accurate fender tag from the broadcast sheet, that was a given. Everything that is on the fender tag is listed on the broadcast sheet. Now it can't be done the other way around though, you can't make a broadcast sheet from a fender tag.

And once again and this is just my thoughts, but it deals with the numbers listed. I'm assuming that your only listing the amount of HEMI R/T's and not including HEMI 500's or HEMI Daytona's? I'm also pretty sure that the numbers listed aren't hard and fast, but rather just a total of what has been accounted for as of now. In other words there isn't any way to know for 100% sure that they only made 207 HEMI 4 speed Chargers. Because not all of them have been accounted for as of yet. And in all honestly they won't ever all be acounted for, as many met the end of their lives very early on and went the way of the junk yard long before they were anything more than a fast used car. I am definately a #'s man, and I love studying #'s on production figures, and well anything else on these cars. I love annalyzing just about every small detail that there are on these cars, but one thing that I can say for sure after many years of admiring Mopars, is that you can hardly if ever say "This is the rule, and they always followed it." So I always have a very hard time just accepting any figures of a car being a 1 of 1 or such. Odds are that it could be a 1 of 1, but in reality there is no honest way of ever knowing that. If I had a car that I thought was 1 of 1 I'd list it as 1 of 1 KNOWN to exist, because I wouldn't ever really know if it was 1 of 1 PRODUCED. Have seen many cars over the years touted as a 1 of 1, only later to find out that there is another one as well.

By the way it is a great car, and definately something to hold on to. Love the 69 Chargers even though I'll admit I'm more partial to the 500's and Daytona's than the R/T's and RT/SE's and others, but I like them all.

[RT/SE]

BZ,

I certainly respect whatever decision you make with your restoration.  You have every right to make the decision that is best for you. I'm just thinking out loud.  I think Galen is wrong on this one.  I carefully looked at the photos of the 383 car - the quarters although very solid do appear to have quite a bit of filler on them.  Will your shop grind out all the old filler, work the metal then redo the quarters with new filler?   I'm not sure I understand the original metal versus repro rational.  As I understand, the new repro full quarters currently available (which some members have already purchased) are based from NOS quarter panels. Can you get any better than that?  I just think its less work to start with the new full quarters.  Also, I think you will get a better job in the end with less time and less filler (not that there is anything wrong with filler if properly done).  Once the quarters are hung on the car, I really don't think you would be able to tell.  I think the other metal parts needed for the car can be found (roof, tailpanel etc.) The parts car is a solid factory big block 4 speed car.  The fact that the original motor is gone doesn't change my thoughts.  A date coded 383 motor would probably be easy to find.  I've looked at many Chargers over the last 25 years and solid factory 4 speed Chargers are a tough find.     

[Charger_Fan]

Now here's what a donor car looks like!  You need a roof, right?   

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Dodge-Charger_W0QQitemZ320202286392QQihZ011QQcategoryZ6199QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Aside from the 1/4's, it looks like that car has many of the parts needed for the Hemi car. The 5K a pair 1/4's offered by Classic Body Design seem every bit as good as NOS pieces & at that price, Hemi cars are what those babies are made for.
By selling the 383 car, you'd probably come out about even with the CBD 1/4's & the parts car linked above...or even come out ahead in deal.

Travis' offer sounds pretty darn good too, IMO.


That's all, I'm out.

[The70RT]

Now here's what a donor car looks like!  You need a roof, right?   

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Dodge-Charger_W0QQitemZ320202286392QQihZ011QQcategoryZ6199QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Aside from the 1/4's, it looks like that car has many of the parts needed for the Hemi car. The 5K a pair 1/4's offered by Classic Body Design seem every bit as good as NOS pieces & at that price, Hemi cars are what those babies are made for.
By selling the 383 car, you'd probably come out about even with the CBD 1/4's & the parts car linked above...or even come out ahead in deal.

Travis' offer sounds pretty darn good too, IMO.


That's all, I'm out.

He did say he also got a lot of nos parts and a killer drive train with the 383 car.

[bzabodyn]

He did say he also got a lot of nos parts and a killer drive train with the 383 car.

The "killer drivetrain" might have a home already if I can make a deal on a '70 Challenger convertible (completed less drivetrain)...

BZ

[supserdave]

Keep us posted BZ. You know your resto would only cost a fraction if you just moved a few key pieces of sheet metal to the donor car..........

Just kidding, I see no reason not to use the donor car. I think you should be able to get back most of your cost with the sale of the parts. And anyway, you bought it tahell with the nay sayers.