stroking a 500 block

[Animal]

Live in England , whatever it costs you guys , double it.

Think i might take a trip over , bring all the parts back 'hand luggage'.

[firefighter3931]

Gonna build the 540 , maybe trawl through the site & get some ideas on a 600 hp motor.

Feel free to chime in.

Adam.

You don't need a 540 to make 600hp. 

Port the E-heads/4.25 stroke 505-512 rotating assembly and a nice solid cam will make that easily and save you a bunch of $$$ in the process. That combo will put you in the 10's...no problemo 


Ron

[Animal]

Ok , got a freshly built stocker , 440 , 8.5:1 comp , 30 over , this motor was built for the charger originaly , until i wanted to go a bit faster  , then had the 440 built that is in there @ the moment.

I'll have the block sonic checked for starters , if all ok , will use it for the stroker , only gonna sit in the garage gathering dust.

Still gonna go with the parts list already mentioned....................

Will scroll through the site & get some info together , the stocker motor has a cast crank in there ,will have to source a forged , maybe go down the 440 source route?

Have'nt a clue what cam to use (help  ) but will go with the Scubeck solid lifters , HS roller rockers , M1 intake , mighty demon 850 , eddy perf heads (can you get them already ported?) .

I take it 440 source will supply me with pistons?

Only concern is the bottom end , may get the MP 440 block , as these come with 4 bolt mains , gonna be usin a 300 shot of gas. don't think the 440 block will be up to it.

Just lookin for a cam then.

Bit of a turn around from the original idea , but it makes sense , don't wanna twist the body , thanks for all the info.

This will be a 5 twenty 8 , with a 30 thou over , coming out to 519 cubes.

Adam.

[Challenger340]

Shee-at !

You can build a 600 H.P. motor really cheap using a mega-block on Pump fuel with ported EDDY heads, or EZ Heads, then spray your 300 shot for the 10's.

Here's an example of "only a 451", albeit on a "stock" 400 Block with EDDY's on pump fuel 92 Octane, Flat -Tappet Cam.

You'd be using the stronger mega-block and more inchs !

This guy just finished going all the way from Canada, DROVE the route 66 in the states, then back to CANADA, all Fine and dandy !

Blew a few Chebs into the weeds along the way.

[/img]

[Animal]

A little off topic here , can't seem to get me head round it.

Looking through the site, Re; stroker builds.......................what would be the reason for decking a block , could you not use a thinner head gasket , giving the same quench , refering to a 496 build , where the pistons were 17 thou below deck height , it was suggested to zero deck the block , then use a 40 thou gasket , the comp ratio was 10.5;1 , twelve cc dished pistons , with 84cc combustion chamber.

Remmember reading somewhere else , where the pistons were 5 thou below deck & the guy used 35 thou head gaskets , this was a 440 source 500 stroker 10.5;1 comp.

I know there's a reason for it , was one of Rons posts. , just being curious.

Adam.

[Animal]

 

Still buggin me.

Can't find anything on the site , or elsewhere.

Thanks
Adam.

[firefighter3931]

Adam, the effective quench zone is .040-.060 with .040 being better and diminishing returns the closer you get to .060 

It doesn't really matter how you achieve that piston to head clearance...as long as it's in the right tolerance. The common felpro head gasket pn # 1009 has a compressed thickness of .040 so a zero deck shortblock with this gasket gives you the ideal quench distance. If your pistons were .010 in the hole you would need a .030 head gasket and those are usually a custom order deal and cost a lot of money. Cometic makes these gaskets but to use them the block and head surfaces have to be specially finished or the heads will leak. The easier way to build it is with a zero deck and using the commonly available felpro's....then if you ever need to replace one it's available at any parts store and relatively cheap.


Ron

[Animal]

Thanks Ron , now i know.

Adam.

[allkiller]

Adam, your a power junkie 

[Animal]

I can't see any trade off at all @ 1.48" Piston Ht. , or thereabouts.
Should be very durable, and those long Rod deals, with limited Cylinder Heads(relative), and, well, it just don't matter where a guy "hits the loud pedal", in range, or not,
they just plain GO !
Very forgiving with the extra Bore size !

So lets start refining this thing for the street ?

Is it a megablock for sure Animal ?

Everybody "OK" with the
4.500 bore,1.480" Compression Distance Piston, Reverse Dome Forged @ 27 cc, W/2618 Material(nitrous) Max 300 H.P. or upgrade Pin, .280" root depth, 1/16, 1/16, 3/16.
4.250 Stroke 4340 Forged Crank Arm with 2.200" Rod Journals
7.100" Rod, 2.200 Big End on the Mopar 1.007" width, & .990" Pin end
1.67 RR

Initial C.R. Calc.'s;
head = 75cc
Gskt @ .040" = 10.5 cc
.010" down from deck = 2.6 cc
Piston = 27 cc effective

Total Clrc. Volume @ 115.1 cc
Total 540 Swept Volume @ 1106.5 cc

Initial Compression Ratio(targeted) @ 10.6:1

We can raise this, but until we "nail" the bumpstick, just a good start point.

Decided to tube the Charger , already fitted frame cons to it , gonna start ordering parts for the above combo (thanks Ron & Bob).

Ron , the part # for the indy heads are 440-BEZ -1 , is this correct? i assume i can use the valve springs that come with the heads? , have also heard some horror stories regarding the offset rockers , has this been cleared up now? , i know ?s ?s .

Bob/Ron , what valve train do you recommend? hoping to go with hyd lifters , can we refine this build a little more , as i will be ordering parts ASAP?


Thanks Adam.

Ps , would prefer the 556/4.375 stroke , i take it i'd have to go external oiling? , would going 556 sacrifice streetability & change much to the above proposed build. TIA.

[firefighter3931]

Hi Adam, the ICH heads you want are the EZ-1's which are the standard head with the max wedge intake port window....and you will need the 440-2 or 440-3 intake manifold to match. Going to a larger displacement will just mean that then power will peak earlier if you plan on using the proposed cylinder head. The EZ-1's use a standard offset intake rocker....just like a stock head and are internally oiled. It's a very easy engine to set up....nothing fancy.

The springs that come with the ICH heads are designed for a flat tappet cam. With that much displacement i think you should be looking at a solid lifter flat tappet or possibly a hydraulic roller/solid roller. The cam will be quite healthy in order to feed that much displacement. 

The rocker arm selection will depend on the camshaft profile....roller cams need fully rolerized rocker arms.

You need to make a decision on the displacement then move on from there. 



Ron

[Animal]

Well , sourced a 440 world products block , they advise to sonic check the block if going upto 4.5 & over bore size , the hold up is hinging on what block to use , if i use the megablock & total it with nitrous then it's an expensive lesson learned , i know of one guy who's callies crank let go & totaled the aftermarket block.

Can get hold of a 68/70 block , thinking of fitting the BCR cap @ girdle system , looks like the best system out there (1/2" thick girdle & billet caps) , should be good for 900HP easy , what do you think?

If the new build is gonna see around 850/900hp with nitrous then thinking i'll have to run a girdle on the aftermarket block anyhow , the only reason i want to use the aftermarket is it utilises the four bolt mains , but if i use the BCR caps & girdle on the 440 68/70 block then i should be ok for around 900 HP anyhow , or am i missing something?

Sorry for draggin me heals here , once you guys tell me what block to use it's all go , feelin a bit better with this build , normally like a bull in a china shop with no patience whatsoever.

Thanks Ron

Adam.

[oldschool]

Well , sourced a 440 world products block , they advise to sonic check the block if going upto 4.5 & over bore size , the hold up is hinging on what block to use , if i use the megablock & total it with nitrous then it's an expensive lesson learned , i know of one guy who's callies crank let go & totaled the aftermarket block.

Can get hold of a 68/70 block , thinking of fitting the BCR cap @ girdle system , looks like the best system out there (1/2" thick girdle & billet caps) , should be good for 900HP easy , what do you think?

If the new build is gonna see around 850/900hp with nitrous then thinking i'll have to run a girdle on the aftermarket block anyhow , the only reason i want to use the aftermarket is it utilises the four bolt mains , but if i use the BCR caps & girdle on the 440 68/70 block then i should be ok for around 900 HP anyhow , or am i missing something?

Sorry for draggin me heals here , once you guys tell me what block to use it's all go , feelin a bit better with this build , normally like a bull in a china shop with no patience whatsoever.

Thanks Ron

Adam.

900 hp is way to much to ask of a 35 year old block, that was NEVER designed for that much, especially with the jolt of nitrous. you will have reliabilty problems,with a stock block. 700-750 hp is all i would ask of one. that power level NEEDS an aftermarket block designed for that kind of power.

[firefighter3931]

Well , sourced a 440 world products block , they advise to sonic check the block if going upto 4.5 & over bore size , the hold up is hinging on what block to use , if i use the megablock & total it with nitrous then it's an expensive lesson learned , i know of one guy who's callies crank let go & totaled the aftermarket block.

Can get hold of a 68/70 block , thinking of fitting the BCR cap @ girdle system , looks like the best system out there (1/2" thick girdle & billet caps) , should be good for 900HP easy , what do you think?

If the new build is gonna see around 850/900hp with nitrous then thinking i'll have to run a girdle on the aftermarket block anyhow , the only reason i want to use the aftermarket is it utilises the four bolt mains , but if i use the BCR caps & girdle on the 440 68/70 block then i should be ok for around 900 HP anyhow , or am i missing something?

Sorry for draggin me heals here , once you guys tell me what block to use it's all go , feelin a bit better with this build , normally like a bull in a china shop with no patience whatsoever.

Thanks Ron

Adam.

900 hp is way to much to ask of a 35 year old block, that was NEVER designed for that much, especially with the jolt of nitrous. you will have reliabilty problems,with a stock block. 700-750 hp is all i would ask of one. that power level NEEDS an aftermarket block designed for that kind of power.

I have to agree with OS....at that power level you really need a megablock if you want it to stay together. You'll also be looking at a solid roller cam and the matching valvetrain stuff to make that kind of reliable power. It won't be a cheap build, that's for sure.



Ron

[Animal]

Looking for a block @ the moment , thanks for the advice.

Will be fitting a girdle to the Megablock , some say overkill , i'm thinking better to be 'belt & braces' , what's your thoughts?

Adam

[oldschool]

Looking for a block @ the moment , thanks for the advice.

Will be fitting a girdle to the Megablock , some say overkill , i'm thinking better to be 'belt & braces' , what's your thoughts?

Adam

at that power level,overkill. i would spend the money else where. you can not hurt the megablock with crank movement at 900 hp.

[Animal]

Can't find any info on the max HP a Megablock could stand , i know cylinder pressure comes into play , so how much power is 'safe' when building an aftermarket block?

Adam.

[oldschool]

Can't find any info on the max HP a Megablock could stand , i know cylinder pressure comes into play , so how much power is 'safe' when building an aftermarket block?

Adam.

i have been told megablocks are good for 1500 hp easy! i have one,i built a 572" motor out of it. it makes a very easy 850 hp. i have a 300 shot zex nitrous kit on the way for it.i have no reservations at all about block strength. just make sure you use a good machine shop,its only as good as the prep work.

[firefighter3931]

Adam, there's no need for a girdle system with the cross bolted megablock....it is plenty stout. 

Oldschool....you're a madman ! 




Ron

[Animal]

Spoke with Ray Barton today , he can supply me an alluminium block  4.5 bore ,  also a 4.5 chevvy journal crank that will require minimal clearancing , also supplys the standard internal pickup that will clear the crank , this is offset from the stock location which uses a two bolt flange.
They can also supply the rods & pistons (nitrous) , so maybe go with built shortblock.

He needs to know which heads i'm gonna be using & what CCs , i said it will be a pump gas motor with 10.5:1 compression.

Maybe go with the shorter rod  , thinking about the CH on the piston , really want a bit of meat on the crown , also concerned regarding the ring pack bein bunched up. Any thoughts on this too? 

I think this is the best way to go , saves me sourcing the crank , rods & pistons when it gets to me in England , what are your thoughts?

Ray Barton said he has made 1600 Hp easy on these blocks , they are World  Product blocks , not Indy or Mopar.

Thanks Adam.

[Animal]

Just read Challenger 340s post on the proposed specs , i see the only difference will be the CH , which will now be 1.37 , i'll use the indy heads Ron mentioned which i think are 75 CCs , hope i've got this right.

Adam

[firefighter3931]

Adam, i'm going through the planning stages right now of a very similar build allthough mine will be built to run on pump gas without Nitrous.

The 1.37 ch is correct for a 10.725 block at Zero deck with a 4.5 crank and 7.1 rod. With a 75cc chamber you will need a sizable relief area in the piston to target that 10.5 compression ratio. Not sure how much meat that will leave in there for spray ? Maybe a call to Diamond Racing to see what they have to say....

As for the heads ; you need something big to feed all that displacement. I was contemplating the cnc 325 cnc Big EZ's but now i'm looking more towards the 345cc cnc Dash 1's with the raised (much larger > better flowing) exhaust port for better breathing with the large displacement mill. Of course that means a set of raised port TTI step headers to match which is again more money seeing as that i allready have a set of coated 2in TTI's that won't fit that head casting. 


On a power adder build...blower/turbo/NOS it's allways advantagous to have the exhaust side flowing as well as possible for best results. 



Ron

[Animal]

Thanks Ron , you building a beast too? 

Can the 325 indy head be ported to feed the displacement? , was thinking of talking to Dwayne porting about it , would like to stay with the stock port location , pas steering etc etc.

Was thinking of harland sharp roller rocker gear , can't find anyone else that supplies the offset intake rockers.

Will only be spinning the motor to around 6500k , thinking the nitrous will benefit with a higher ratio rocker on the exhaust say 1.6 RR ex & 1.5 RR intake , also around 8* more duration on the exhaust lobes ground on a 114 LSA. Do you reccomend hyd rollers or solid flat tappit lifters?

Will the M1 intake feed the 572 if ported , or is there another intake out there that will still allow me to run the hood without cutting it up.

Hoping for around 700/750 horses on the motor , spraying around 500. The Charger weighs around 4300lb , so a heavy bitch to get moving.

Really hoping for a 10 on the motor & a low 10 high 9 with the spray , any thoughts.

Ordering the World product Alu block  next week , should shave around 150lb off the weight.

Will be talking to a piston manu regarding the CH & using a good dose of spray , Probably Ross , as i've always used them , also gonna talk to them about coatings & ring packs , don't want the mollys this time as the 300 shot of nitrous blew the coating off the top ring , now using toatal seal AP rings with a CI second gapped for nitrous , which are still running good in the little ole 446".

TIA.

Adam

[firefighter3931]

Thanks Ron , you building a beast too? 

Yep....top secret project.  Only those that bother to open this thread will know about it. 

Can the 325 indy head be ported to feed the displacement? , was thinking of talking to Dwayne porting about it , would like to stay with the stock port location , pas steering etc etc.

Was thinking of harland sharp roller rocker gear , can't find anyone else that supplies the offset intake rockers.

Originally i was thinking 325 big EZ's but Dwayne talked me out of them....i understand his reasoning and on a build like your's (NOS) the large exhaust port is even more important. The 345cc Dash-1's are the ticket...for the both of us it would seem    I will be purchasing the whole top end Kit from Dwayne and having him do the prep work and spec out the cam.  The Dash-1 heads will fit fine as long as you purchase the correct raised port TTI headers....no fitment issues at all. 

The ICH "kit" is an excellent value and for a few hundred dollars extra you can upgrade to a T&D rocker arm system....that's impossible to beat. 

I would ask Dwayne about the NOS cam grind....certainly the flow numbers will impact the exhaust duration and of course the NOS must be factored in. I'm planning on a solid roller with "endurance grind" lobes which are easier on parts....maybe a little less power but the springs/rockers/lifters will last a lot longer on a street/strip type build. Not sure if anyone makes a hyd roller profile big enough for a beast this size ?

I don't forsee any problems reaching the 700hp level with that displacement and those heads....it's a slam dunk.

I here ya on the "stock" look and no hoodscoops. That does present some challenges but i think i've got it worked out. I should be able to run the 4150 ICH single plane under the factory hood with a drop base air cleaner assembly. I had to lower the K-frame but so far it looks like there will be clearance....time will tell though. I'm sure the 4150 will be down some on power, but i can live with it....


Nitrous huh ? You sure are a  with your engines !



Ron

[Animal]

Hey Ron , you got me stumped on the 'ICH' , is this a manifold/head kit?

Go on , you know you wanna talk about the new build. .........will help me a bundle.