can I do it myself????

[firefighter3931]

On another thread someone said they used "copper coat" sealer on "all" head gaskets.  The packaging on the fel-pro gaskets I have says to "use no sealer" so I'm assuming I'll be fine without applying any sealer.  Right?  It is also stated that no retorque is required.  So I guess I'll just torque them down once and call it good?  Thanks, Bob

Bob, no sealer required with those and the Felpro "Permatorque" gaskets don't need to be re-torqued. 

Use the correct ARP lube on the headbolts and torque in 3 steps following the correct sequence and you'll be fine. 



Ron

[RECHRGD]

Bob, no sealer required with those and the Felpro "Permatorque" gaskets don't need to be re-torqued. 

Use the correct ARP lube on the headbolts and torque in 3 steps following the correct sequence and you'll be fine. 



Ron

Thanks Ron!  Todays question(s):  I need to get the 1 1/4" bolt off that holds the harmonic balancer on.  What's the prescribed way to keep the crankshaft from turning in order to break the thing loose.  I'm doing this with the engine in the car.  The old heads are still on.  Will I damage anything by trying to wedge something between the flexplate and tranny case?  Also, when I install the new oil pan, will I be in for any surprises when I take off the steering piece that goes under the pan?  The car is up on jack stands so there is no weight on the wheels.  Thanks,  Bob

[Runner]

i like to use an impact to REMOVE the balancer bolt.   you can also put a punch or screw driver through the holes in the balancer and wedge it against the pan rail.    bet the impact makes quick work of it. 

   as long as you dont have any presure on the steering there shouldnt be any surprise when you drop the center link.

[firefighter3931]

i like to use an impact to REMOVE the balancer bolt.   you can also put a punch or screw driver through the holes in the balancer and wedge it against the pan rail.    bet the impact makes quick work of it. 

   as long as you dont have any presure on the steering there shouldnt be any surprise when you drop the center link.

I agree with Mike. Just to expand on his comments ; i've also used a wood wedge between the ring gear teeth and bell housing to lock up the engine for the balancer bolt removal....just another way of doing it. The iimpact gun is definately the easiest and quickest. 

No problem dropping the centerling for pan removal....



Ron

[RECHRGD]

Thanks guys!!  I got my hands dirty today and with any luck will get the old heads off tomorrow.  The axe handle in the converter ring gear worked great!  Bob

[RECHRGD]

OK, things got sidetracked for a few days, but I was able to make it out to the shop for awhile today.  I got the passenger side head off.  As I stated way back in the beginning of this thread, I didn't know exactly what pistons or C/R the engine had.  Everyone I had talked to in the past just assumed that they were sixpack pistons.  The receipt for the engine build just said TRW forged flat top pistons.  The guy I bought it from was charged over $600.00 for them back in 1996.  Anyway, I was also told that the sixpack slugs would have valve reliefs in them.  Well there are no valve reliefs and I can't find any #s on them but they're pretty carboned up.  They have a small circular something in the middle and look like the ones sombody posted a few days back.  I'll try and get a picture posted as soon as I fiigure out how to get them properly resized.  They appear to be about 1/16th" down in the hole but I need to get better tools.  Anyway I'm just concerned about the C/R.  Any ideas?  Thanks, Bob

[RECHRGD]

OK, lets see if this picture works.  It's very frustrating trying to get a picture downsized enough to have it accepted because when you increase the size so it can be seen, the quality goes to hell.  I'm old and tech dumb.  I wish I would have pulled the engine to do this, but I'm stuck now.  How can I get the carbon off of the piston tops enough to see some lettering without getting crap down into the cylinders?  Thanks, Bob

[Finn]

...theres lettering on the piston tops?
I did not know that.

[RECHRGD]

Finn, I'm not real sure on these either, but I have seen sizes stamped on some.

Guy's Like Mike said before, I'm gaining about half a point in C/R just by going to the 84cc heads.  I've had detonation issues in the past and had to back off the timing a little depending on how good the gas in the tank was (not all pump 92 octane is created equal).  That's why I figured it had at least 9.5 or better C/R.  I'll probably be fine just bolting the heads on.  Should I try to get the carbon build-up off of the pistons?  I really don't want to take a chance on getting garbage on the cylinder walls.  Thanks,  Bob

[firefighter3931]

Bob, those look like the TRW 2266 flattops which sit .080 below deck. I would clean them up and see if you can get a part number. Those pistons will have the PN stamped on the top but yours are covered in carbon....which really should be removed. Bring each piston to the top of the bore and hit it with some carb cleaner and use a scraper to remove the gunk....be careful around the cylinder walls. Once the piston is cleaned up just move it down in the bore and give the cylinder wall a good wipe (paper towel) to pick up any residue....repeat for all 8 cylinders. 

Ok assuming the pistons are indeed the 2266's with your old heads and the felpro gaskets your static compression ratio would have been ~ 8.6:1. With the same head gaskets and the 84cc chambers it moves up to just over 9:1 which is not ideal but with the small duration cam it should run fine. If you were building a more serious street/strip car then it would be worthwhile to swap out the pistons....but this is more of a cruiser with an attitude type build so i would just leave it. 

The good news is that you will probably be able to run this new combo on 87 octane. 



Ron

[RECHRGD]

Bob, those look like the TRW 2266 flattops which sit .080 below deck. I would clean them up and see if you can get a part number. Those pistons will have the PN stamped on the top but yours are covered in carbon....which really should be removed. Bring each piston to the top of the bore and hit it with some carb cleaner and use a scraper to remove the gunk....be careful around the cylinder walls. Once the piston is cleaned up just move it down in the bore and give the cylinder wall a good wipe (paper towel) to pick up any residue....repeat for all 8 cylinders. 

Ok assuming the pistons are indeed the 2266's with your old heads and the felpro gaskets your static compression ratio would have been ~ 8.6:1. With the same head gaskets and the 84cc chambers it moves up to just over 9:1 which is not ideal but with the small duration cam it should run fine. If you were building a more serious street/strip car then it would be worthwhile to swap out the pistons....but this is more of a cruiser with an attitude type build so i would just leave it. 

The good news is that you will probably be able to run this new combo on 87 octane. 



Ron

Thanks for the reply Ron.  I'll try to get the carbon cleaned off tomorrow PM and let you know what I find.  It seems odd that the car performed as well as it did (mid 13's @ 103 to 105 mph with such low compression, stock heads and near stock cam.  I'd hate to go through all of this and not pick up the anticipated performance.  If, in fact, the pistons are what you expect they are, could the new heads be milled to bump me up to around 10.0CR?  Anyway, all of the old stuff is now stripped out and I'm ready to start putting this puppy back together.  The driver's side head was a real B----- to get the lower bolts off, as the Hooker headers can only be moved around so much without lifting up the engine.  There are three lower bolts that I had to use a knuckle attachment on the socket to get them off.  I have no idea how I'm going to get them torqued properly.

[Finn]

what year is your block?

[RECHRGD]

what year is your block?

1971 with forged crankshaft.

[Runner]

bob, the reality is that with out any numbers  its a guess at best what the pistons are,  they might well be .020 in the hole cast pistons.   no one knows if the deck of the block has been cut either.     id see if you could get someone to lend you a bridge for a dial indicator and measure how far down the pistons acually are.    if they are indeed down in the hole .080 you could run a steel shim gasket and kick the compresion ratio up to 9.4-1.  people will debate all day long weather or not you should run a steel shim gasket with a aluminum head but there are several people that are doing it successfully and in the end, ask the man that you bought the preped heads from what he thinks....     you will want to make sure to check  how far in the hole the piston is though    you want to make sure you have around .040 clearance between the head ( now that its a closed chamber head) and the piston.  going much less than that can allow the piston to kiss the head.   also make sure piston to valve clearance isnt an issue with the new cam and no valve reliefs in the pistons.

        do your homework here,  it will pay off.    didnt hank gosnell biuld you motor before you bought the car?   did you acualy see the recipt for the pistons... 600 clams for trw psitons is kinda high even for todays prices.


   as far as your performance goes, ive said all along the traction is going to be your biggest obstacle.  with a street tire you might well run the same et as you are now but 10 mph faster. i gareentee the car will be making a good deal more hp and be alot more fun to drive.   

with a 84cc head ( mine acually ranged between 82 and 83cc out of the box)

if the piston is .080 in the hole a .040 thick gasket you get 9.02 cr
                    .050                   .040                               9.57 cr
                    .020                   .040                               10.20cr
                    .080  now with a  .020 steel shim                9.405cr
                    .050                   .020                               10.01cr
                    .020                   .020                                10.71cr      see the importance of knowing how far down the piston acually is?  even with an advertised piston it can very from verying deck heights, correct rod length, correct crank index ect. 


   

[firefighter3931]

I have to agree with Mike ; the best couse of action will be based on some measrements. I based my estimates on the 2266 trw deckheight which usually comes in around .080 below deck....some less some more and it depends on what machinework was done to your block in the past. The only way to truly know is to measure and calculate based on those measurements. 

As for your worries regarding performance ; don't sweat it....these heads and the Comp XE cam are gonna make a huge difference in power. You've picked up 50+ cfm with the heads alone, not to mention the much better cam profile. 

Like Mike said ; keeping rubber on the back of your car is gonna be your biggest problem. 



Ron

[RECHRGD]

OK Guys---------Ron gets a gold star.  I just got #2 piston cleaned off and it's a L2266   .030.  It appears to be right at .0625 in the hole, so according to Mike's numbers, we should be a little under 9.5 C/R.  I'm feeling better now.   Mike I did check the old build receipt and he was charged $604.05 for the pistons ("TRW Module Forged").  There is a charge for "outside labor to hone w/ deck plate" so I assume that means the block was decked.  Also there is charge for outside labor to "resize Rods".  I compared the new rods to the old ones and the old ones are a little longer than the new Crane #64673-16 rods.  However, the old ones have the ball ends on both sides and the new ones are the ball and socket type, so with that in mind they should be pretty close.  I assume the new adjustable rockers will compensate for any minor differences, right?  Thanks again for all your help guys!!    Bob

[Runner]

.062 in the hole will put you right at 9.34-1 cr with a .040 gasket or 9.75-1 with a .020 gasket.        your old combo was right at 9.04-1.        if it were mine, i might opt for the .020 gasket.  but if you do,  run that option past dwayne.   the gaskets are cheap  and easy to get so it shouldnt hold up the project to long.   if you the gaskets are hard to find for some reason, let me know i have a spare set hanging on my shop wall.

[RECHRGD]

.062 in the hole will put you right at 9.34-1 cr with a .040 gasket or 9.75-1 with a .020 gasket. your old combo was right at 9.04-1. if it were mine, i might opt for the .020 gasket. but if you do, run that option past dwayne. the gaskets are cheap and easy to get so it shouldnt hold up the project to long. if you the gaskets are hard to find for some reason, let me know i have a spare set hanging on my shop wall.

Thanks Mike,  I'll run it past Dwayne.  Does the .020 gasket require a retorque?  Dwayne had told me that there was some core shift on the heads and that I would have no problems with the felpro gaskets that I got, so maybe I don't have that option.  BTW, the oil pick-up that came with the new pan was fine.   Just heard that we have a snowy weekend coming up.  We were just about to the point that all the winter snow had disappeared except back in the shaded areas.  I'm very tired of the white stuff.  Thanks, Bob

[Runner]

we hopefully will avoid the snow down here.   the weather is getting really old though  its cold and windy here right now.        im not sure of the retorque...  i never retorqued the steel shims on my old 383 and never had an isssue in 10 years and i highly doubt the factory ever retorqed the heads and they came from the factory with steel shims.  nice to hear the pickup and pan worked out without issue.  id like to get a couple hemi pans and pickups.  one for my roadrunner and one for a stroker 383 that i plan ot build but probably never will. i bought a pan and pickup for mallorys car when i did the 440 and it was kind of a pain to get the pickup to clear the pan.  i bought it from brandon at 440 source and when i called him about the issue he said all aftermarket pickups had this issue..... i guess he was wrong.

[firefighter3931]

OK Guys---------Ron gets a gold star.  I just got #2 piston cleaned off and it's a L2266   .030.  It appears to be right at .0625 in the hole, so according to Mike's numbers, we should be a little under 9.5 C/R.  I'm feeling better now.   Mike I did check the old build receipt and he was charged $604.05 for the pistons ("TRW Module Forged").  There is a charge for "outside labor to hone w/ deck plate" so I assume that means the block was decked.  Also there is charge for outside labor to "resize Rods".  I compared the new rods to the old ones and the old ones are a little longer than the new Crane #64673-16 rods.  However, the old ones have the ball ends on both sides and the new ones are the ball and socket type, so with that in mind they should be pretty close.  I assume the new adjustable rockers will compensate for any minor differences, right?  Thanks again for all your help guys!!    Bob

Bob, that's good news....the block must have been decked when it was rebuilt 

On the head gaskets : some guys have had good luck using the MP steel shims with coppercoat. I haven't personally used this setup myself so i can't  vouch for it....

Another option would be to mill the heads to reduce the chamber volume and use the felpro 1009 permatorque gaskets....that would be my first choice. 

** using a 77cc chamber volume will give you a nice 9.95:1 static compression ratio




Ron

[RECHRGD]

OK Guys---- I've sent both of your suggestions to Dwayne along with some questions of my own.  I'll let you know what I hear back.   Bob

[RECHRGD]

OK, just heard back from Dwayne.  He said just to bolt them on with the head gaskets I've got.  If I milled the heads enough to make any real difference in power, then there could be a valve clearance problem.  Just the answer I was hoping to hear.   Bob

[firefighter3931]

OK, just heard back from Dwayne.  He said just to bolt them on with the head gaskets I've got.  If I milled the heads enough to make any real difference in power, then there could be a valve clearance problem.  Just the answer I was hoping to hear.   Bob

That's more or less what i said when you initially posted the piston pix a few posts back  ....think powercruiser, not race engine 

The static compression is actually better than i first anticipated given the machining done during the last rebuild. 

Don't worry....it's gonna make lots of steam and be a huge improvement over the last build. 



Ron

[RECHRGD]

OK, just heard back from Dwayne.  He said just to bolt them on with the head gaskets I've got.  If I milled the heads enough to make any real difference in power, then there could be a valve clearance problem.  Just the answer I was hoping to hear.   Bob

That's more or less what i said when you initially posted the piston pix a few posts back  ....think powercruiser, not race engine 

The static compression is actually better than i first anticipated given the machining done during the last rebuild. 

Don't worry....it's gonna make lots of steam and be a huge improvement over the last build. 



Ron

Yep, back to it.  As soon as I can get the shop to stop stinking gas fumes from yesterdays close call.   Thanks, Bob

[Runner]

cool beans bob.   so how much snow did ya get up there?  we acually avoided getting any accumulation but did get several fluries over the weekend. i am absolutly sick of winter.