400 for my 68?

[RD]

you can figure $1000-$1500 for machine work

$300 for pistons
$80 for rings
$100 for rods/main bearings
$899 for new 440 source aluminum heads
$200 for a good intake
$350 for a good carburetor (if you dont have one already)
$150 for a damper/balancer

and you already have the 440 block... do the math.

no replacement for displacement

[firefighter3931]

Chargerbr, talked to the builder again..  should not of questioned his MOPAR wizdom! He's been building MOPAR Muscle since 1957!! (Been there and done that!)
anyways this is what he had to say... the engine used to be a 400 Interceptor (Police engine) with 400hp stock...The deck height of the 440 piston is about .100 higher than the 400, so the piston is even with the deck height of the block. 400 pistons are dished and .100 lower in the cylinder. The piston wrist pin of the 400 is  in the same location as the 440, so the rods that came with the engine will work with the 440 pistons. The rods are from the 440 6pack, the pistons in it are 440 Magnum flat tops.  He chose to use the Closed chamber heads to raise  the compression from 9.6:1 to 10.1:1, not too big of a diferents except the 40 more horses it will build.   Everyhthing he did to it was for the purpose of building horsepower!  Sounds like an incredible build!
oh yes this will be going into my 68!

Fwiw, a 440 rod (6.76) and stock spec 440 piston will not fit in a 400 block....no way, no how. Like has been mentioned above by Kevin ; a low compression 440 piston on a stock length 383-400 (6.35) rod will work in a 400 block and is a cheap way to bump up the static compression without having to go the custom piston route. 

Perhaps you misunderstood what the "guru" was trying to tell you ?

If you're going to build a 400 you might as well stroke it....inmo. 



Ron

[sixty8charger]

Ron, i was hoping that you would post on this!  thank you.

and with the rough price estimates posted by RD i think it would be more benificial to me to build my 440... might as well do the stroker kit then..  becides then i wouldn't have another block taking up space...
512 kit? 500 kit?        i want an engine that will be well balanced and reliable because this car will be driven occasionally on the freeway from time to time and with the 3.91s in the rear i don't want to be screaming and beating up my engine!!!!!  i have to save save save in order to do anything on this...                    maybe i got too excited too quickly on this 400...            that is of course why i posted this on DC.COM!
thanks for the help.  can anyone post some important tips/recommendation for me to go about building my 440?

Jayson

[firefighter3931]

Jayson, how much power are you looking to make ? You don't necessarily have to build a stroker to make 500 reliable horsepower on the street....a 440 can do that with some descent parts and planning. Of course the stroker will do it much easier and will ultimately make more torque and horsepower....but there is the added cost to consider.

The rest of the drivetrain has to be upgraded with a stroker as well.....trans/driveshaft/suspension and rear end. If you're planning on racing it much then a Dana 60 rear end should be part of the overall plan. 


Something alond the lines of Vegas Mike's build is very streetable and wouldn't require major chassis/drivetrain upgrades to make it live. 

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,6000.msg356593.html#msg356593



Ron

[sixty8charger]

Ron,
I would love to be around that 500 mark.  VegasMikes build seems like it would be great..  I PM'd him to see if he would share some Cost info on the build and also its handling on the freeway....

I just want a very strong, reliable engine that will take me down the strip in mid to low 12s (on the occasion...) have a very MuScLe CaR idle/rumble, and be something that i do not have to adjust all the time..and run on PUMP GAS! with no problems of valve sink or any crazy things like that.

I will take this car on the freeway to car shows so i want an engine that will handle the constant high rpms (no gear venders in my budget) and be well... FUN!  No Disappointments...

Jayson

[RD]

here is a pic of my build, take in consideration, desktop is somewhat generous, not much maybe 5-8% i believe.

most of the build is there, except the heads are 516's, pistons are 2395 TRW's (think thats the number), and the cam is a 509 purple cam.  imagine what will happen when I step up to the 557 solid and put the new 440source aluminum heads on the ol girl next year

[RD]

with graph

[HemiDave]

So let me get this straight...according to your chart, at 11,000 rpm, you are only making 106 HP?

I'm not too sure about this engine builder...if you are on a really low 440 budget, you might get by with a crank grind (assuming that a rod knock is what the knock is from), a bearing set, a gasket set and a rering. If you want new stuff, the 440source stroker kits are just a little more than a stock rebuild kit with the same parts. And if you are waiting a little while, the aluminum heads we've been talking about will be available.

Just don't want you doing this: :brickwall:after getting the rebuilder to do your engine....good luck!

Dave

[RD]

So let me get this straight...according to your chart, at 11,000 rpm, you are only making 106 HP? ... Dave

yeah I know, whats up with that nonsense?  its because my chrome ecu only goes to 8K hehehehehe

[sixty8charger]

alright, now that is impressive!

Looks like i am going to need to think this one out a little more..    i got to put that 400 on a dyno.. i will share the results..  hopefully within the next couple of months..  kind of a drive away!   

[terrible one]

RD, where did you get that program and what is it? Free?

[RD]

alright, now that is impressive!

Looks like i am going to need to think this one out a little more..    i got to put that 400 on a dyno.. i will share the results..  hopefully within the next couple of months..  kind of a drive away!   

those results are for a 440, not a 400, just to make sure you know.

[RD]

RD, where did you get that program and what is it? Free?

i bought it a long time ago,  i can post up the files on a server somewhere so that you can download them if you like?

[firefighter3931]

alright, now that is impressive!

Looks like i am going to need to think this one out a little more..    i got to put that 400 on a dyno.. i will share the results..  hopefully within the next couple of months..  kind of a drive away!   

Don't place a lot of faith in a computer game. 

Desktop dyno is notorious for being waaaaay overgenerous. My own engine combo showed 100+ additional horsepower on DD over the real thing (engine dyno). 




Ron


Ron

[supserdave]

3500 for that 400 is to much i.m.o. And, if the heads are stock, and he's using a 440 6 pack cam, theres no way it's 500 hp. Probably less than 400.

That same build in a 440 would probably only be good for around 410-420 or so I bet, and thats with 40 extra cubes.

No offense, but with or without 50 years of mopar experience, he's still blowing smoke up your ***. For 3500 you could have a hell of a start on a stroker.

[terrible one]

RD, where did you get that program and what is it? Free?

i bought it a long time ago,  i can post up the files on a server somewhere so that you can download them if you like?

That would be great, as long as it's not too much trouble for you! 

[RD]

alright, now that is impressive!

Looks like i am going to need to think this one out a little more..    i got to put that 400 on a dyno.. i will share the results..  hopefully within the next couple of months..  kind of a drive away!   

Don't place a lot of faith in a computer game. 

Desktop dyno is notorious for being waaaaay overgenerous. My own engine combo showed 100+ additional horsepower on DD over the real thing (engine dyno). 




Ron


Ron

Ron makes a good point, the desktop dyno is just a tool for estimated horsepower, one cannot factor in the many variables to produce an extremely accurate and "prophet" telling idea of horsepower.

But the numbers shown are very similar to builds in which i have seen in the past that are somewhat identical to my build, minus the whole 6-10% more HP than reality states.

My build should be in the range of 500-525hp... the dyno shows 544hp, so thats close enough in my book.

[Runner]

alright, now that is impressive!

Looks like i am going to need to think this one out a little more..    i got to put that 400 on a dyno.. i will share the results..  hopefully within the next couple of months..  kind of a drive away!   

Don't place a lot of faith in a computer game. 

Desktop dyno is notorious for being waaaaay overgenerous. My own engine combo showed 100+ additional horsepower on DD over the real thing (engine dyno). 




Ron


Ron

Ron makes a good point, the desktop dyno is just a tool for estimated horsepower, one cannot factor in the many variables to produce an extremely accurate and "prophet" telling idea of horsepower.

But the numbers shown are very similar to builds in which i have seen in the past that are somewhat identical to my build, minus the whole 6-10% more HP than reality states.

My build should be in the range of 500-525hp... the dyno shows 544hp, so thats close enough in my book.

       i played around with desk top dyno when i biult my engine, for me it was more of a toy and i would NEVER buy a part based on info i got from it.  i dont trust it at all.

[Steve P.]

$3500.00 for a spare parts motor,,,,  HOW ABOUT A NICE BRIDGE WITH VERY LITTLE USE........


Make life nice AND easy. pull your 440 and have the block checked. Buy a stroker kit and aluminum heads from 440 Source. Add to it a nice cam. Have the engine shop put it together and drop it into you 68'. You will love it and it will make plenty of power.   

[RD]

i dont want to hijack this thread too much, but the parts on my vehicle are race proven, street proven, and dyno proven to produce the said amount of horsepower that is slightly exaggerated by the desktop dyno.

I am not telling the originator of this thread to buy what is in my build, or even build his 440 just like mine, but rather showing him some irrefutable evidence that a 440 with the same amount of money put into it as the 400 he was thinking of purchasing would yield more horsepower and torque with the help of a desktop dyno tool for a guess in hp/tq.

i am not asking him to buy a part due to what was shown on the dyno, nor is it a representation of what the 400 he thought about purchasing would produce in regards to hp/tq.

SO HERE IS SOMETHING, LETS GET OFF THE DESKTOP DYNO BAND WAGON AND INSTEAD JUST LOOK AT THE REAL ISSUE AT HAND, SHOULD HE BUY A 400 THAT IS MISLEADING OR PUT HIS MONEY INTO A 440 THAT HE ALREADY OWNS.

good god... this is getting stupid.

[Steve P.]

Wait just one damn minute there RD..  I think you can take your desk top dingo and put it right up,,   




     

[firefighter3931]

Jamey, nobody is critisizing you....hope you didn't take it that way. 

Yes your car runs great and the motor makes excellent power for what it is. 

Back to your regularly scheduled programming. 



Ron


Ps. Ignore Steve P....he's just a troublemaker  If he keeps it up we'll throw him in the "cooler" for a little quiet time alone 

[Steve P.]

Ps. Ignore Steve P....he's just a troublemaker  If he keeps it up we'll throw him in the "cooler" for a little quiet time alone 

Hahahahaha....   Here's one for you too buddy..     

I think RD knows I was busting his chops... If not,            

[sixty8charger]

$3500.00 for a spare parts motor,,,,  HOW ABOUT A NICE BRIDGE WITH VERY LITTLE USE........


Make life nice AND easy. pull your 440 and have the block checked. Buy a stroker kit and aluminum heads from 440 Source. Add to it a nice cam. Have the engine shop put it together and drop it into you 68'. You will love it and it will make plenty of power.   

Sounds simple enough..  would 3500 cover that?  i already have Edel Perf. RPM Intake, and the Doug headers..  and the MSD shizneet..       
.. Sad to see how little faith everyone seems to have in this 400.. sounded just too good! The builder seems so positive in the build, and has shared so much of his history.  Raced for Champion Speed Shop back in the day and he would race in Fremont...against Dick Landy of all people!  Maybe his knowledge is just of the old times and not so much as to what technology has brought us today... i don't know if he is pulling my leg or what..  but he seems to know so much.  I will admit that i am young and a little easy to impress if you persuade me in beleiving you...         i am glad i posted though..    one more thing though.
if the block is good (the 440)  will it last me a long while?  is the block built as well as.. say the 67-70 HP blocks? will the 76 one be softer? and not be able to handle a lot of .. well abuse?


thanks for all the advice,

Jayson

[Steve P.]

A well built and maintained 440 will last forever...  Ok, maybe not as long as that, but you get the idea..  It has been around this long, right??