Everyone's buying Toyota's

[Telvis]

Most of you know I work for Toyota. They are a great company and take pretty good care of their team members. They build the Camry, Avalon and Solara here in Georgetown, KY. Almost everything on and in the car is made here or made by regional suppliers. They have provided a lot of high paying jobs and given a lot back to the local economy. Toyota even gave the city of Georgetown, KY enough money to build a new high school. Toyota demands a lot from the people who work for them. They take pride in quality and efficiency and it shows in the quality of the cars they produce. I don't drive a Toyota. I need a big truck and I like the styling of my Ram pickup. If I needed a car I would not hesitate to buy a Camry or Avalon. They are more "American made" than the Ram pickup I am driving. 

[hemihead]

I buy American and I have always bought Mopar. Sure they are building the rice burners in this country now with American labor and parts.That way the don't have to pay the import taxes but the profit still goes back to Japan.Ford owns Mazda and GM owns alot of stock in Toyota and Mopar owns alot of stock in Mitsubishi. And if American parts are so expensive and poorly made, why do they buy them to build their cars? As far as quality goes the U.S. cars are built just as well if not better now.That was early 80's thinking. One thing I have noticed is that the rice burners rot very ,very quickly. Must be the recylced U.S. steel they buy from us.And for all you people that love your Jap cars, why do you own a big poorly made, gas guzzling Charger for?Shouldn't want to collect a 78 Celica instead ?

[Mike DC]

 
If Jap cars are cheaper to own as daily beaters, then that leaves more money for the Chargers.
Is it better to buy a modern Mopar or restore an old one?

The only ones who can get high & mighty in this issue are the guys who actually drive a 40-year-old Mopar as a daily car.

 

[ACUDANUT]

 If Toyota's so great, why do they have, and need a Service Department.  BTW they are always full of broken down Toyota's when I glance in there.

[Troy]

From my experience... my Ram is probably the worst vehicle that I've ever owned. Parts for my Tacoma are easily half price compared to the exact same parts on the Ram but double the same parts on the Suburban (it's not a 4x4 though). Couple that with the fact that the Suburban was paid for with cash, the Tacoma is nearly paid off and I still owe a ton of money on the Ram and it makes things more lopsided. Yes, the Ram gets better mileage but diesel has also been $.40-.60 per gallon higher nearly the entire time I've owned it.

My second worst car from a cost/reliability standpoint was a V6 Fiero - but it was a lot of fun to drive! My Celica never needed anything other than routine maintenance and was a perfect daily driver. My dad owns a Corolla, my step dad has a Camry, my sister has a Camry, my step sister had a Camry but bought a new Fusion (her cars never last long enough to worry about reliability), my other step sister had a Honda CRV which worked flawlessly, one step brother has always driven Honda Accords, and my other step brother has an Intrepid that's broken (again) so he's borrowing my step dad's Ranger which has been a great little truck. These are all people with little mechanical knowledge and most can't afford large repair bills. My cousin is a die hard Dodge guy and has had his truck replaced twice under warranty (yes, the entire truck). My roomate's parents only drive Dodge and have had good luck. My roommate has a Nissan Pathfinder though and it's a disaster. Her Celica, and both Toyota 4x4s were great but her three Mustangs were not. If you read my previous posts you'll see that I said Toyota and Honda are the leaders and the rest of the Asian cars have a long way to go to catch up. The American cars are certainly catching up in quality/reliability but they have killed their reputations so bad in the past that it is an uphill battle.

Every car made today is better than most anything made 15 years ago so even the worst car isn't really that bad. One interesting point that I found a while back: from a reliability standpoint, most cars 10 years old and older have approximately the same number of problems. This is handy to know when buying used and comparing the cost of parts. If you only buy new then be concerned with initial quality. I have never owned a brand new car. I am one of the least brand loyal people that I know and I'm dedicated to the best-bang-for-the-buck approach. I'd also rather research individual cars rather than looking at broad generalizations.

In the case of large(r) trucks, American is the only real option. Ford seems to have much nicer/better interiors but Dodge has the Cummins. I'm not even looking at Chevy/GMC.  I won't be paying $40+ for a truck that I would hardly use though. The 2003/2004 F-250 is tops in reliability and the prices are reasonable (thanks to massive depreciation). Slightly smaller, the Tundra is nearly perfect for what I need but it's very plain looking and not any cheaper (with their largest engine) than the American competition. Likewise for the Nissan Titan and it also has severe reliability issues. I like the new Tacoma but it can't pull my cars so it's out. As I said before, for a daily driver, there's little that I would even consider in an American/Mexican/Canadian car.

This is all my personal experience though so maybe there's something I've missed. I'll still buy whatever I like and can afford no matter who tries to convince me that I'm wrong. If I listened to (nearly) everyone else I wouldn't have any Chargers.

Troy

[Troy]

If Toyota's so great, why do they have, and need a Service Department.  BTW they are always full of broken down Toyota's when I glance in there.

Maybe they aren't broken down? My dealership was offering lifetime oil changes. Plus some people always have the dealership do maintenance. I can drive by nearly every dealership (any brand) that I know and see a full service department which only points out that every piece of machinery requires maintenance.

Troy

[69DodgeCharger]

why do you own a big poorly made, gas guzzling Charger for?Shouldn't want to collect a 78 Celica instead ?


The Chargers are toys, not transportation for the majority of people that own them.

[Brock Samson]

i'm just wondering how many folks are listening to LPs on their record players,.. 

[Troy]

why do you own a big poorly made, gas guzzling Charger for?Shouldn't want to collect a 78 Celica instead ?


The Chargers are toys, not transportation for the majority of people that own them.

Who? I've never cared about gas prices or mileage. As a matter of fact, my Barracuda is the gas miser in the family with the diesel dually close behind. My fleet average is likely in the low teens but since all the Chargers don't run I'm really not sure. Japanese cars from the 70s weren't all that great. Fortunately, they have made a lot of progress while other companies, well, haven't. I drive my Barracuda every day that I can (10,000 miles last summer) and plan to drive the Chargers at least as much. It would be handy to have a cheap daily driver but I've learned that the added insurance and car payment doesn't make up for the fuel savings. I *need* a truck (mainly to cart around car parts) and the Tacoma is the closest thing to year round, economical transportation that I've got. My previous 4cyl Toyota 4x4 was better but it rusted out (17 years of Ohio winters does that to every car). I'd likely have the same luck with an S-10 (which I've had) or a Ranger and when they died I'd just throw them away. These cheapies are disposable - like Chargers used to be.

Troy

[Troy]

i'm just wondering how many folks are listening to LPs on their record players,.. 

I prefer to call it a turntable...

Troy

[Todd Wilson]

From my experience... my Ram is probably the worst vehicle that I've ever owned. Parts for my Tacoma are easily half price compared to the exact same parts on the Ram but double the same parts on the Suburban (it's not a 4x4 though). Couple that with the fact that the Suburban was paid for with cash, the Tacoma is nearly paid off and I still owe a ton of money on the Ram and it makes things more lopsided. Yes, the Ram gets better mileage but diesel has also been $.40-.60 per gallon higher nearly the entire time I've owned it.

You must remember though the Ram you have is a work truck designed to do things way heavier then you are using it for. If you would do 1 ton things with the Tacoma truck your costs would be the other way around as you would be breaking stuff all the time and consuming fuel at a high rate working the little gas engine hard.


Todd

[68chrgrwife]

If Toyota's so great, why do they have, and need a Service Department.  BTW they are always full of broken down Toyota's when I glance in there.

Maybe they aren't broken down? My dealership was offering lifetime oil changes. Plus some people always have the dealership do maintenance. I can drive by nearly every dealership (any brand) that I know and see a full service department which only points out that every piece of machinery requires maintenance.

Troy

when I owned my Dodge Neon It would take them 3 weeks from the date I called to be able to fit me in to change my oil (before lifetime whatevers).  Service dept. wa always full and always busy....

[Troy]

From my experience... my Ram is probably the worst vehicle that I've ever owned. Parts for my Tacoma are easily half price compared to the exact same parts on the Ram but double the same parts on the Suburban (it's not a 4x4 though). Couple that with the fact that the Suburban was paid for with cash, the Tacoma is nearly paid off and I still owe a ton of money on the Ram and it makes things more lopsided. Yes, the Ram gets better mileage but diesel has also been $.40-.60 per gallon higher nearly the entire time I've owned it.

You must remember though the Ram you have is a work truck designed to do things way heavier then you are using it for. If you would do 1 ton things with the Tacoma truck your costs would be the other way around as you would be breaking stuff all the time and consuming fuel at a high rate working the little gas engine hard.


Todd

You are correct - which is why I own the Ram. Due to my own lack of knowledge when I bought it, it's never been in a condition that I'd feel safe using it for what it was actually designed to do. It is certainly overkill for anything I'd ever need it for and it makes absolutely zero economic sense for me to own it. However, I still think the Ram is just flat out cool and nearly every guy I know drools over it. Guys just like big, powerful machines even if they don't make sense (perfect example of the differences between our country and others). Dodge has improved many of the shortcomings in the newer (2003+) trucks and I've heard that they might have actually found a transmission that will hold the power. That doesn't make my truck any more reliable and I'm still not buying a $40k+ truck. On the flip side, I could destroy the Tacoma and buy another for cheaper than it would cost to fix everything on the Ram. 

On the subject of new cars, every new car is a losing investment initially - especially if it's financed. This is one reason why I have never owned a brand new car. There are a lot of great deals on one to two year old leased vehicles with good maintenance records. You can still get really good financing rates on these cars as well. The depreciation hit on most cars is at its maximum in the first two years so there's less chance of being upside-down on the loan for very long. Yes, that means I'm looking at 2004-2005 trucks.

Troy

[ChargerRT440]

just a thought. I drive a 1984 Dodge Ramcharger daily gets about 15 mpg on plugs that are who knows how old(never bothered to change them yet-opps) Hasn't burned a quart of oil since I replaced the motor(10,000+kms ago, previous owner beat the S*** out of the main bearings pulling a horse trailer) I've had the trans oil down past the top of the pan and it still shifted fine and after changing the gasket noted that there was only normal wear. Sure my brakes are warped but I guarantee from a 60mph roll I'll outstop your honda/toyota on ice without abs(I stopped on shear ice within 25 feet at 40mph-threshold braking will always outbrake abs) I hate abs brakes with a passion. No vehicle I've ever driven has had a working abs system. my 98's abs locked up on me one day in the ran. Almost everyone I've driven with that's car has abs says it doesn't work worth anything.

My 84's been on this earth for over 250,000 kms on the frame/drivetrain been through 4 accidents(2 with me) 1 that destroyed the whole front end. and the frame is straighter then an arrow. I drive it everyday and have no problems with the carb starting for me.

Thats why when I buy vehicles their older then 1985. The best vehicles were made back then.

Btw I saw a comment that said toyota's vehicles were made in the states? Yeah No there "assembled" the parts are all made in foreign country's and then "assembled" in North America I say assembled because I doubt it's much more then bolting on the front and rear bumpers. doesn't take much to slap a "made in usa" sticker on a vehicle or part.

Honestly people have to start waking up. China's becoming a huge power in the world and right now there turning out alot of crappy products. just wait til cars get their turn.

[Mean 318]

dont get me wrong, I love my ram, but witht the cost of keeping it nice and the cost of gas I would like a Toyota Tundra! My ram was bult like a tank and took a f150 on at o dead stop while she was going 35mph... I won that one! There aint much made in the usa these days!

[69DodgeCharger]

I agree with the ABS thing........Totally useless and downright scary. I hate driving my Ranger in the winter or on wet pavement with it. You always have to drive like your "not" going to be able to stop in time.

[Troy]

I'd recommend doing more research. The safety standards of cars today are light years ahead of what was considered excellent in the 80s (yet people still find creative ways to kill themselves in a vehicle). The fact that an older car survives usually means that all the forces of the crash were transferred to the driver. I have some "evidence" of what happens to a human body when a Charger crashes (one of mine was smashed into a tree by a previous owner). The simplest way to put it is that the car is tougher than the driver. A "normal" driver (my mom for instance) is many times safer with ABS brakes. Just because some people know how to stop without them doesn't mean the guy in the next car has a clue. For the record, a 68 Charger with drum brakes at 35 mph is going to annihilate any car running a stop sign in front of it. Yes, it hurts - in more ways than one...

All new cars sold in the US have a sticker that explains the percentage of the car made (not just assembled) in this country. Interesting reading. Very few Toyotas say they are 100% foreign. The ones that do are usually because they aren't produced here. Yet. None of the American cars that I've checked out say 100% domestic. With the globalization of the parts industry I doubt if any car will ever be completely manufactured domestically (in any country). Even Ferrari buys some parts from outside vendors.

If you've never been in a factory you need to take a tour before making statements about what they do. I was amazed at the Ford transmission plant here in Cincinnati. Unfortunately, in order to get the quality they needed to compete they automated most of it and laid off lots of workers. Same with the one in Batavia. The only other auto manufacturing option is Toyota in Kentucky which is growing. I'd tour an American car plant but I don't have a current passport (or an armed guard in the case of Detroit!).

Troy

[CharlieCharger]

I'd rather have a Ram pickup, but if it came down to cost of gas, I would buy me a little camry to zip around town with it.

[73dodge]

88 Dakota bought brand new the first 60,000 miles I had to replace the brakes 3 times the transmission/transfer case and rearend. The driveline vibrated forever and never could be cured although the engine was awesome 225k on  it when I sold it. The dealer was a total prick on every warranty issue I ever had with it.


2000 Dakota Sport 4x4....A total piece of shit 12 miles a gallon, shook so bad at highway speeds it was frightening used oil bad and that was all by 33,000 miles Again no help from the dealer service dept. or Company reps on any of these isssues.....Just a bunch of bullshit excuses.

now like I said to back up my point go here and check out this thread, this is 8 pages of Dakotas with the shaking problem.

http://www.dodgetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67909

some of the comments

"Braught my trunk in today to the dealership to have a look at the vibrating problem. They called me back about 3 hours after I dropped it off telling me I had to come in and get a rental because they are replacing the rear end and drums. They gave me dodge charger hemi for a rental which is pretty cool."

Another comment

"I saw that there was a recall on a earlier generation Dakota with the 5.9L due to vibration from the driveshaft..
I had a vibration from mine yesterday again when brakeing, after it was hot. The rotors have already been turned (twice), and it doesn't always do it, so now I'm leaning toward thinking it is shock/ suspension related."


I looked on other boards and found similar threads, and this is only for the 03-05 model years I owned a 91 okay so tell me WHY would I bother with a dakota? I mean almost 20 YEARS of the SAME problem and it's still a PROBLEM......................



I looked on the toyota truck forums and you know what I found? Most of the threads had to do with How do I install a lift kit on my tacoma? who has the best off road gear for my truck? laugh if you want but I would rather read 50 pages of threads on how to add stickers and plastic stuff than read about 50 pages of

"my truck shakes and I took it to the dealer 15 times and they still can't fix it"

in 1989 I bought a brand new Honda accord for $11,500 and in 1 year put 40,000 miles on it wrecked it once and when I went to trade it in on a NEW 1991 Dakota the dealer gave me $11,500 for it on trade in. Tell me that is not reputation?


like I said in my earlier post I wanted to buy a new Dakota but I AM NOT going to roll the dice and possibly end up with a problem truck. Some are good and some are bad but the odds are not in my favor on getting a good one from the factory.

[Mike DC]

 
Cars were getting better (mechanically speaking) until about the mid/late 1980s.  We reached the point of port fuel injection, 4spd overdrive trannys, decent disc brakes, etc. 

I think most of what has happened since then has really been the process of making cars cheaper & lighter for the factories to build.  Not really better for the consumer from the 1990s onwards.  These days I just see more complexity & unnecessary features being piled on every year.  (I don't care how many bazillion miles the engine's short block can last.  A car still isn't actually reliable for the consumer when there's 25 miles of lowest-bidder electrical crap throughout the body and every little normal-wear service item takes $1200 worth of skilled labor to install.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gimme the structural design work of today, the body style & creative decisions of the '60s/70s, and the basic mechanical systems of the '80s.

 

[twilt]

I am not so sure that I believe Detroit has made great strides in quality. As an auto technician who does not work at a dealer, I do not work on many vehicles that are less than 4 or 5 years old. What I see and work on is mainly vehicles that are 5-12 years old. On the American made vehicles, I see a lot "common issues" that incur the customer great expense.

Here are some prime examples.  I have never seen a leaky evaporator core on Honda or Toyo. See it regularly on 5-6 year old Chryslers. On the Chrysler its a big job requiring removing the dash can easily cost $600-$900. Chrysler 2.7 L sludge issues -engines blowing with 75-90k, Ford 4.2 L blowing rods out the sides of blocks at 80k because of faulty gaskets allowing coolant into combustion chambers, GM 3.1/3.4 are real joke. Same piss poor design on the intake gaskets for over 10 years. Leaking head gaskets on GM 2.2/2.4.  Over 1/2 of the AC jobs I do are on GM`s due to leaking compressors. For every import fuel pump I replace, I replace 15 on domestics. Why is it that these imports have tiny plug wires that never go bad and Fords wires that are 3x the diameter are constantly going bad? I`ve replaced more Ford coils in one week than I have on imports in 5 years.

My older brother had an 2.7 L Intrepid. First it was $900 for the leaking evap core, then a few months later the motor blew up at 90k. Guess what? At the advice of his mechanic and life long friend, he bought a Toyota Avalon. 

 

[wetfeetmi]

 The whole point of this thread (IMO) is FUEL and EMMISSIONS. These  are the reasons the Prius is selling like hotcakes. Most Americans can now see $5.00/gal. gas in the near future. An $8,000(minus the $3,000 tax credit) premium for a Prius is a little easier to swallow than is was 12 months ago. You can blame Big Oil, American Auto makers, and this god forsaken Administration in office for the state of the union. I sold my fantastic '72 Cuda in May to buy a Prius, but I am waiting for the plug in Prius to arrive. I caution everyone listening to brace yourselves and get prepared for some changes. They are a comin'!  I will keep the Charger for occasional weekend drives, but I cant drive a vehicle that gets 20mpg daily. My wife drives an '01 Beetle TDI and can't say enough good things about it and it's 45mpg. We have a good friend that works for VW America, and she tells us that VW will be flying the diesel banner in an unprecedented way next model year.

[Troy]

Twilt: I should have said "initial quality" was better but I guess used quality still isn't so hot.

wetfeetmi: No offense, but you'd have to hope gas hits $5.00 per gallon to justify the Prius. I figured out once that even doubling my gas mileage it would still take approximately 10 years to break even (adding in the costs of the car, insurance, and maintenance). My point when figuring that all out was that most Americans aren't willing to make a change if it negatively impacts them. Congrats to you for trying to make a difference! The VW TDIs have always intrigued me but don't really fit in to my lifestyle/needs. I almost bought a Passat right out of college but the truck was more versatile (and I only had one car).

Troy

[Mike DC]

 
Agreed. 

I'm not just trying to play "bash the Prius" or anything, but I don't see the economic payoff unless gasoline basically doubles from where it is right now.
Every time I've crunched any numbers on that stuff, I've come away thinking that it's a better deal & less ownership trouble to just get a plain-old conventional economy car.

 

[69DodgeCharger]

 
Agreed. 

I'm not just trying to play "bash the Prius" or anything, but I don't see the economic payoff unless gasoline basically doubles from where it is right now.

One good hurricane and Curious George hitting Iran should about do it.