440 Build - Opinions wanted!

[Longhorn69RT]

Hey guys,

   I just thought I'd run my 440 build by ya'll to get the seal of approval from the charger gods. I have a 69rt with a 72 440, 3spd auto 727, and currently 3.23 gears in a 8 3/4 with 28" tires (swapping to 3.91's along with this build). The car is stock weight, has power brakes (mp discs in the front), and power steering. I'm looking to make a reliable and fairly low maintenance street cruiser that will punch in at about 500hp with a 6500 max rpm. My engine has been pulled and is with a reliable machine shop in town. The block will clean up at 30 and my crank will need to be taken 10 under. Here's my plan...

Edelbrock RPM 84cc Heads
Edelbrock RPM intake (already on the car)
Holley 750 Street HP w/ vacuum secondaries
TTI 1 7/8" headers (to match up with my current 2.5" exhaust)
SRP forged pistons
Speed Pro moly rings
Stock rods with ARP bolts
ARP main studs
Clevite bearings
Cloyes 3 bolt timing chain
MSD pro-billet distributor
MSD 6al box and blaster 2 coil
Melling HV oil pump
Milodon windage tray and pickup
6 qrt hemi oil pan
New dist drive shaft and bushing
440 source HV water pump and housing

Deck the block to zero and balance the assembly

The shop I'm using suggested Lunati's 60403 Voodoo cam  (268in/276ex @ 50, .494/.513", 110 lsa) and lifters... what do you guys think? Will the valve springs that come on the eddy heads handle the high rate of lift? Do I need special pushrods for this setup? What rockers would you reccomend?

Lunati suggests a 2400 stall torque converter

I'd love to hear any comments/suggestions you guys have. Is there anything on my list I could do without for my power goals? Anything I should add while I'm putting forth the $ and the work? I'd like this engine to be done right and am willing to spend a little extra to make sure it's solid. Thanks for the help.

-Jess

[Purple440]

I can't comment on all the parts, but the cam/intake/head/carb/header size/exhaust combo looks good to me.  The cam duration is actually 226/234 @.050 which should be really nice with the stall if you put that in.  Even without the stall and your 3.91's it should be good because the rating starts at 1800rpm and your current stall is probably close to that if stock.  Dunno on the estimated HP, others will though. 

Cam is rated to 6200rpm....

Looks like fun, G/L!

- Doug

[firefighter3931]

The parts selection looks really good ! I would use a 1.6:1 iron ductile rocker with that cam to get more high lift area and take advantage of the increased flow with the E-heads. The stock Eddy springs will be fine for that application. Have the heads inspected at a machine shop and pay close attention to the valve guides....a few might need to be opened up if they're too tight. 

The converter should be in the 2500-2800 rpm range for that cam profile. 

It needs more cam to make a true 500hp.... but it will still run strong and make lots of power. The HP will probably come in at 450-475 based on other similar builds i've seen in the past. It will make lots of torque ! 



Ron

[is_it_EVER_done?]

Do you have a reason that you are not stroking it? The cost would be the same or probably less that re-machining your crank, refurbishing the stock rods and adding ARP bolts, and milling the block for zero. Plus a stroker would be infinitely stronger, you would save money on a high stall converter, gears, etc. And still surpass your power goals. Basically, there is no good reason, nor cost savings, to not go with a stroker now days.

You can keep the compression to pump gas levels, cam to reasonable levels, get parts that are a major step up in strength and longevity, Use a street friendly (and non gas hog) ignition system, produce more power and torque at a lower RPM,  all for the same money (or less).

What you have listed will work, but since their is no benefit, and I have to question why?

[Purple440]

The parts selection looks really good ! I would use a 1.6:1 iron ductile rocker with that cam to get more high lift area and take advantage of the increased flow with the E-heads. The stock Eddy springs will be fine for that application. Have the heads inspected at a machine shop and pay close attention to the valve guides....a few might need to be opened up if they're too tight. 

The converter should be in the 2500-2800 rpm range for that cam profile. 

It needs more cam to make a true 500hp.... but it will still run strong and make lots of power. The HP will probably come in at 450-475 based on other similar builds i've seen in the past. It will make lots of torque ! 



Ron

Hey Ron, why would he need a high stall like that if the cam is rated for 1800-6200? 

- Doug

[firefighter3931]

The parts selection looks really good ! I would use a 1.6:1 iron ductile rocker with that cam to get more high lift area and take advantage of the increased flow with the E-heads. The stock Eddy springs will be fine for that application. Have the heads inspected at a machine shop and pay close attention to the valve guides....a few might need to be opened up if they're too tight. 

The converter should be in the 2500-2800 rpm range for that cam profile. 

It needs more cam to make a true 500hp.... but it will still run strong and make lots of power. The HP will probably come in at 450-475 based on other similar builds i've seen in the past. It will make lots of torque ! 



Ron

Hey Ron, why would he need a high stall like that if the cam is rated for 1800-6200? 

- Doug

Doug, the cam rating is a general operating range for the grind but doesn't identify the "sweet spot" for any particular engine combination. Ideally, stall speed should be at or close to peak torque for maximum performance. From my experience a 225@.050 duration cam in a 440 will work extremely well with a 2500-3000 stall. When the converter flashes up to that rated stall speed the engine will be in the "meat" of it's power band. 

A good quality converter will be efficient and tight at lower engine speeds so you won't even know it's there until you floor the throttle....then the fun begins. 

PTC makes a very nice 11in street converter that fits this application and sells for around $250.00 




Ron

[aifilaw]

I don't have time to do much more than skim this thread right now, but I don't see anyone else commenting on it so I will...
Drop the vacuum secondary carb for manual secondaries... you will kick yourself many times and very hard if you don't.
Tuning issues, and mostly lack of power are serious problems with a vacuum secondary carb, especially with a non-stock cam and wanting to make power.

[Longhorn69RT]

Thanks for the replies....

is_it_EVER_done? - For my first rebuild I just wanted to keep things as simple as possible and I feel I have a good understanding of the build I have put together. I don't want to get too far in over my head. Coming from a bone stock never-been-rebuilt 72 engine, I would think I would see most of the same parts in a stroker build.. so I don't see the real $ benefit. Who knows, maybe down the line I'll be wanting that extra power but for now this will be definitely enough to get me in trouble!   

aifilaw - The choice for carb has been one of the things I've been hung up on lately... but I've always heard heavy car + auto tranny = vacuum secondaries. What am I giving up by switching to a manual sec carb?

-Jess

[SeattleCharger]

Do you have a reason that you are not stroking it? The cost would be the same or probably less that re-machining your crank, refurbishing the stock rods and adding ARP bolts, and milling the block for zero. Plus a stroker would be infinitely stronger, you would save money on a high stall converter, gears, etc. And still surpass your power goals. Basically, there is no good reason, nor cost savings, to not go with a stroker now days.

You can keep the compression to pump gas levels, cam to reasonable levels, get parts that are a major step up in strength and longevity, Use a street friendly (and non gas hog) ignition system, produce more power and torque at a lower RPM,  all for the same money (or less).

What you have listed will work, but since their is no benefit, and I have to question why?

I don't know much about strokers, cept diff. crank and shorter rods?   Why does it save money on gears and stall?  more torque?  would it break these parts though?  the trans and rear end and drive shaft?   I guess I need to start reading up on stroker engine threads,  sounds cool though

[firefighter3931]

For my first rebuild I just wanted to keep things as simple as possible and I feel I have a good understanding of the build I have put together. I don't want to get too far in over my head.

-Jess

Jess, you have the crank and rods.....all you need are the pistons and a little machine work. The 6-pack slugs are fine and so are the LY rods.....guys have been running that combo of parts for years. I would recommend that you have the rotating assembly balanced....the engine will run and idle smoother. 

Allthough the 6-pack pistons are heavy they are fine with a street type build that will see the occasional track outing. You won't be shifting higher than 6k anyway with a hydraulic cam (valve float) and really that voodoo grind will be nosing over at 6k or just before.  The 6-pack pstons are very close to the factory weight slugs so balancing will be simple for the machine shop....no major grinding/weight reduction on the crank required. 


The Proform carbs are awesome....i would be looking at one of those for this build. 



Ron

[Purple440]

The parts selection looks really good ! I would use a 1.6:1 iron ductile rocker with that cam to get more high lift area and take advantage of the increased flow with the E-heads. The stock Eddy springs will be fine for that application. Have the heads inspected at a machine shop and pay close attention to the valve guides....a few might need to be opened up if they're too tight. 

The converter should be in the 2500-2800 rpm range for that cam profile. 

It needs more cam to make a true 500hp.... but it will still run strong and make lots of power. The HP will probably come in at 450-475 based on other similar builds i've seen in the past. It will make lots of torque ! 



Ron

Hey Ron, why would he need a high stall like that if the cam is rated for 1800-6200? 

- Doug

Doug, the cam rating is a general operating range for the grind but doesn't identify the "sweet spot" for any particular engine combination. Ideally, stall speed should be at or close to peak torque for maximum performance. From my experience a 225@.050 duration cam in a 440 will work extremely well with a 2500-3000 stall. When the converter flashes up to that rated stall speed the engine will be in the "meat" of it's power band. 

A good quality converter will be efficient and tight at lower engine speeds so you won't even know it's there until you floor the throttle....then the fun begins. 

PTC makes a very nice 11in street converter that fits this application and sells for around $250.00 




Ron

Gotcha!  But if the stall begins in the "meat" of the power band doesn't that mean the tires will fry rather than hooking up and go?

[aifilaw]

Thanks for the replies....

aifilaw - The choice for carb has been one of the things I've been hung up on lately... but I've always heard heavy car + auto tranny = vacuum secondaries. What am I giving up by switching to a manual sec carb?

-Jess

heavy car + auto tranny means the vacuum secondaries will open sooner....

fact is it is still a pain in the ass to tune. If you get it right, you will save gas mileage slightly on the order of 0.5-1mpg dependent on your typical cruising speed, and only if you do a lot of distance driving at that speed. For the most part, when people tune these, it means you have a lean condition going on at cruise speeds, and all the troubles that it entails.
The big kicker is, if you want the power now... right when you hit the gas... you can't have it... you can have it slowly over time, and even then, sometimes those secondaries aren't open all the way.
You can tune a manual secondaries carb to do very well mpg wise, and power wise, and have power on demand. It is by far the better choice, and I wish I had realized that when I bought my 870 street avenger with vac sec, because I thought I could tune it with the springs to be the best of both worlds... after 2 spring kits, a dozen jet changes, and probably 80 hours of testing and trying solely working on that problem, I realized I was wrong, and not from lack of tuning ability.

[firefighter3931]

Gotcha!  But if the stall begins in the "meat" of the power band doesn't that mean the tires will fry rather than hooking up and go?

Depends on how hard you hammer the pedal. If you pull away from the stop under light throttle it won't flash up to the rated stall....it'll be much like the stock converter. The stall speed rating is for a full throttle stab from a dead stop. 


Traction is allways going to be a problem on the street with a lot of torque....but that's the fun part. 


Ron

[aifilaw]

Gotcha!  But if the stall begins in the "meat" of the power band doesn't that mean the tires will fry rather than hooking up and go?

Well, yes and no. Technically having the stall beginning in the very start of your bandwidth (where torque peaks) is the best possible scenario to place power to the ground.
Having some money and time into the suspension, drive train, and of course rubber... so that it hooks even when your converter flashes in this range is the fundamental behind a good timeslip