Mopar Action Tech editor puts foot in mouth

[ChargerRT440]

http://www.bigblockdart.com/index.php/topic,20109.0.html
Me thinks Rick Ehrenberg should consider keeping his opinions out of magazine articles and not publically bash someones product that he's never tested. Take a look. lol number one reason I don't read MA is because of Rick.

[TheAutoArchaeologist]

He tried to give an informed answer, and people bashed him with no engineering knowledge whatsoever.  Then a guy who owns the product comes on and gives them assurances, yet no real proof. 

Truth is the front suspension was not designed to support the entire engine weight, what he said was correct about long term durability issues not being considered.  Sure people might have 1000, 5000, etc... miles on them, but in the long run that isn't alot.

He gave his opinion on the subject, and I do believe he should have supported it better in the article, or make it a seperate article to tell what needed to be told. 

I have engineering buddies that are car guys, and we have all thrown our ideas of better suspensions out there for future mods.  They always said about all these new k-memeber systems they are good for the short term, but the front end was not made to take such abuse and strain in the long term, there can be and most likely will be some sort of failure, aka engine falling out.  The original design was just not built with this in mind, that is why there were torsion bars to distribute weight off of the front end, not add to it.  This does not include those that have completely redone the front end with strengthening and new framerails and what not.

This is what I have heard, this is what I have learned.  It is my opinion and if you disagree then so be it.  Good luck.

Ryan

[hemihead]

The way I look at it is if that K member was so great Ma Mopar would have built them that way.

[Ghoste]

Everybody has a different opinion.  Ehhrenburg can certainly find the short way to getting under people's skin but he has a pretty good track record too.  His Green Brick did okay with the suspension components it had.

[last426]

Eberg pwnd those guys.  Anytime a person designing and selling parts states "As for the engineer-speak, it's lost on me. I've seen more engineering failures than successes, in many fields, but mostly in the oem automotive world. Just like people get a woodie when someone says "cad-engineered" - it's just software to home-in on a proper design without wasting lots of time and money on guesses. There's no magic to it, and no more useful than the guy at the keyboard.
You can calculate stresses all you want, but every calculation is based from an initial assumption. If the assumption is wrong, so are all the calculations. It's only a baseline to get you in the ballpark, all the rest is real world testing" I turn and run.

Real world testing isn't what it's all about anymore. Far from it.  And for Reilly to do an ad hominen, classy.  It seems people have trouble with an intellectual, coupled with a real world knowledge, approach.  I will never understand it.  Kim

[253862656971]

I agree with the E guy (however you spell his name).  The Bill guy said flat out that he didn't do any kind of finite analysis on the system he builds.  Now it *might* work fine but I would have trouble trusting it.  I had actually considered a tubular K-member for a future project but after reading that little thread I'm not interested.  I have built a number of Chromoly structures over the last few years.  Some have been suspension systems and others full chassis and roll cages.  You think your building a strong structure but when you do the analysis you discover that there is a whole lot of flex in the various members.  The first time I saw this in a computer program I thought    There was no way that thing could be that flexible.  Then you go and do real world simulations using the loadings you assume in the computer program.  Guess what?  The numbers you see are very similar.  You wanna know what else is scary.  Chromoly has this really cool feature.  It will flex fairly easily (especially in situation where the Chromoly is used as an equivalancy to a mild steel ie: the chromoly is thin wall) but show little or no permanent deformation.  Then one day... snap.  She flexed a little too much.

So what am I getting at?  There is no way I'm gonna put a critical element on my car (like the front suspension)  that has had no kind of engineering done to it.  I can bang out a front suspension tonight for a Charger and sure it will hold... for a while.  But unless I spend some time engineering it, it ain't worth the material in scrap iron. 

[Troy]

I wouldn't say there was "no" engineering involved. Ehrenberg also dinged the XV components in the same vein yet they have spent countless amounts on design, engineering, and testing. He also mentioned several times that if he was making a race car he'd definitely be using Bill's setup. His contention was using these on a street car that has to survive potholes, curbs, rain, etc. Those of you who are in to off road vehicles should be very familiar with "homegrown" solutions that make it as commercial parts even though the only "engineering" involved was figuring out what broke and strengthening it. I tend to think that new metal is safer than old metal and *hopefully* someone has figured out how to build a better suspension in the last 40 years! The engineers back then did some amazing things without the computing power that we have today but they also used the test-until-failure approach. Their failure analysis wasn't nearly as good as the latest technology either.

With that in mind, I can't imagine how those same great engineers managed to screw up my truck so bad - longevity, quality, and strength of the brakes, front suspension, and steering are absolutely laughable on a Diesel 4x4.

Lastly, it annoys me any time when one guy supposedly has all the answers. People are always whining about Galen due to the idea that he's the "final word" even when he's been wrong. I like to see all the angles and new ideas because, in the end, it makes for better and safer products. I have my doubts about whether posting the disclaimer in the article was appropriate (especially without the full explanation) but that's in the past and nothing will change it now. Is that considered professional journalism? I don't know but it seems more like a cheap shot. In the end, it's just another pissing match on a web forum. Maybe it sways some people's opinions but, much like the disk brake spindle argument, I don't expect too much to change.

Troy

[ChargerRT440]

Personally I look at it this way. How much worse can this product be for longevity then a piece of stamped steel which exposed to the elements of 40+ years of driving/sitting? I look at it this way. Yes maybe the factory made a long lasting part but as far as I'm concerned unless you've got some suspension components that are the same thickness/same condition as brand new it could break as quick as this suspension.engineers don't always hit a home run. I work as a machinist and many ideas engineers come up with turn out to be worth nothing because it just doesn't work with what they want it to do.

[John_Kunkel]

E-booger is a great asset to the Mopar community but he lays an egg every now and then; when it comes to suspension components he demands millions of miles of real world testing to prove the durability of a part but still stands against the use of the F-M-J spindles on A and B bodies even though thousands are in use with none of the failures he predicted would occur. His geometry argument on the spindle subject only relates to those who routinely do "General Lee" jumps" and he talks about "real world testing".

SAE behind a person's name doesn't mean squat if personal opinion is what drives his comments. Other myths he still supports:

"Removing the accumulator spring will firm up the 1-2 shift in a Torqueflite."

"Synthetic fluid won't work in an 833 4-speed, it's too slippery to work with synchros."

[69bronzeT5]

I dont like Mopar Action......MOPAR MUSCLE RULES!

[253862656971]

Those of you who are in to off road vehicles should be very familiar with "homegrown" solutions that make it as commercial parts even though the only "engineering" involved was figuring out what broke and strengthening it. I tend to think that new metal is safer than old metal and *hopefully* someone has figured out how to build a better suspension in the last 40 years! The engineers back then did some amazing things without the computing power that we have today but they also used the test-until-failure approach. Their failure analysis wasn't nearly as good as the latest technology either.



Troy

I agree Troy.  The "tractor factor" plays a big part in offroad products.  We do it on our baja car all the time.  But we also do a lot of design for just exactly how long we race.  We figure, ok the race is 4 hours, we put in about 10 hours testing time before each 4 hour race, that totals 14 hours and that's how long we want this piece to last.  We do that a lot in our drivetrain components.  The one I can think of right now is an intermediate shaft.  That sucker starts to twist the first time you hit the gas.  We've even got it down to if you use mild steel the shaft will last long enough but throw in a Chromoly shaft and she'll break after just a couple hours.  If we were building a commercial product you guys would kill us for the corners we cut on longevity but the decrease in strength saves us several pounds and picks us up quite a bit on race day.  It's kind of a 'pick your poison' deal.

I thought about this a little bit today.  I'd bet that if you wanted to save weight in the K-frame you build an aftermarket piece with exactly the same geometry and dimensions as the original mopar piece.  Instead of using 1/8 in. steel for the stampings use the equivalent (at rupture) chromoly steel (guessing .060 in).  You'd save a ton of weight and have the same strength as the old k-member. 

I agree with John Kunkel too.  I'm a member of SAE as well.  It don't mean jack.  It just looks fancy.

[TUFCAT]

Lastly, it annoys me any time when one guy supposedly has all the answers.

Troy

[Khyron]

I just read both threads. and I just have to say this.

Every tech editor and every magazine puts in their own opinions. I don't have a problem what Rick said.

[Mike DC]

   
The whole thing is sorta like trying to debate bodywork issues. 
What's "good" or "professional" or "overkill" or "real-world ready"? . . . We could argue about this stuff all day and never reach a consensus. 

People have different plans for what they're gonna be doing with their musclecar.  Everybody seems to operate with the assumption that their own set of expectations are the "normal ones" and anyone else's other intentions for their cars are just oddball stuff that they shouldn't really be expecting from a normal product.

 

[TheAutoArchaeologist]

Well since it is a rework of the entire front suspension, I would assume the people want to drive their car?  And the whole question is whether in the long term these new engine supporting structures would hold up.  I don't believe so, but that's just my opinion.

Ryan

[dkn1997]

Disco tech was one of the first mods I did to my charger and it got the juices flowing to do a lot more after that.  I have even written to him and he's put my letters in the mag twice.  I also have bought stuff from on ebag and been satisfied every time.  I have  emailed him with tech questions and gotten an answer usually in 24 hours. 

I don't think he acted badly at all in that big block dart thread.  seemed respectful enough to me.  Reilly seemed like the only one with a legitimate beef with the guy. most of the others were doing the typical internet piling on...too bad.  It could have been a very informative thread.

[Brock Samson]

  i bought stuff from him over the years and never had any hint of a problem and i totally respect what he's done with the green brick and his many perfomances in the cannonbal and other events... he's a pretty fair writer too...   
i dunno about this latest brohaha but it don't phase me none, i figgure one of the selling points of Hi PO mopes from the era we care about it that they were over enginered to begin with and did Taxi, Police and Highway Patrol duty fathfully...
if i was building a car on an unlimited budget and had tons 'o money invested in aftermarket suspension mods for SEMA or such perhaps i'd care... but i'm not in that market... and prolly never will be.. 

[firefighter3931]

EBerg is a smart guy with years of experience. I like the way he writes and expresses himself....his tech info is what i would describe as no-nonsense. 

I see his point on the alter-k for a drag car.....it's a nice upgrade over stock with lots of room for oilpans, headers etc...

However, like him i'm not so convinced that it would be durable enough to survive the rigors of heavy street driving. I'd like to see some long term testing....several years and thousands of miles on the alter-k to convince me it's strong enough. We allready know that the stock stuff is pretty durable and can easily be upgraded with strategicly placed welds and gusseting. 

The original MA article stated that the alter-k was not his personal preference....he was just voicing his opinion. Personally, i think that the alter-k camp overreacted and looked silly trying to belittle and discredit him. 



Ron

[Charger74]

REad both and I agree on both sides of the arguement.  I think Bill's customers reacted out of a perceived slight on what they feel is a great product that no one else has done (except XV) till now.   And please don't say that no one here doesn't bag on someone's opinion or product, we all do it.

One person towards the end of the thread makes a very valid point.  There are many different front end setups for Ford and Chevy but you haven't heard to many people complain about them.  Yes the structures are different between them and Mopar, but the fact is you don't hear people bag on those setups.  Reilly took what He had learned from many, many different people (including some racers), his own experience and built something that appears to work very well.  Yes, street driving is pretty hard on suspension, but if you watch some of those cars that run them especially the one's pulling wheels off the ground runningg low 9's and 8's.  That front end isn't getting treating very nicely.  Yes the cars are setup a bit stiffer with rollcages and other enforcements of the body than a street car.  But you would expect that after 30 or 40 runs that some of them have, something would have broken by now., and my understanding is, nothing has.  I agree that only time will tell.  I still think his product is awesome and deserves the attention it gets.

[BrianShaughnessy]

The original MA article stated that the alter-k was not his personal preference....he was just voicing his opinion. Personally, i think that the alter-k camp overreacted and looked silly trying to belittle and discredit him. 



Ron

I havent' said anything because ...  well... the point of this thread was to belittle and discredit my friend as well.     

I know one of the posters on that BBD thread is my friend Walter... his 68 Dart is a pretty much a dedicated racecar which is what the AlterK is for.   The car has plates but I've never seen it out on the street except for the car show at work twice.    He's happy with it.   That's great.    He trailers the car to and from the track.

Some hardcore race car parts aren't really well suited to street life.   I met a dude with some overpriced racecar aluminum upper A arms on a 69 Camaro the other week.   One failed badly and the wheel crunched his fender after it crashed on the ground.... luckily it was low speed.    The suppliers response was gee ... that never happened before      I've had other reports from the F body world about some PA tubular K members breaking in half.    It's kept me from doing anything much with them.

Do what you want... but remember that the AlterK is labeled for off road use only.    I've considered it myself but I'll probably end up with a reinforced FirmFeel piece at some time.