Gas station boycott lets stand up and be heard

[70charger_boy]

Troy, I don't think the people in California really care about driving green cars, at least in the Los angeles area.  Those people are primarily concerned with driving around some of the biggest gas guzzling cars and suv's and really don't care about gas, because the average salary is way up there compared to the rest of the country. I do think it can have a shot in Northern California.  As far as the bay area, not sure with all those hills and all... I'll let brock and the other bay area guys chime in.  I know that people here in the northeast would love to drive around an experimental electric.  Certain police stations are using compressed natural gas in their cruisers and the state vehicles run CNG too.
  The State of Rhode Island is shooting down a proposal for a huge LPG terminal.  They think it would make a good target for terrorist's.  I guess if it was pre 911 it would fly, but not now.  Also there is a developer in Cape Cod that wants to build a windmill farm and once again the people are opposing it, because it takes away from their ocean view.
  Mercedes has a clean diesel car, but who knows if that will ever get into production.. I have been doing research and I think the botom line is it is so exhausting and so hard to get people to unite it turns out to be a road traveled by one.  We should've heeded the warning's set back in the 70's.  I guess we will never break the chains the oil companies have on us. 

[bull]

The Tesla car proves one of my points though. Rather than continuing with electric car technology car companies just keep dropping it and then it's later picked up again by different companies. Had one or more of them kept developing the technology and supported it with a percentage of their fleets being electric we would be better off today. Maybe half the cars out there now would be electric. Instead we're again caught with our pants down with gas at $3.50/gallon. I hope you're right about this Tesla effort but I'll believe it when I see it.

And I reluctantly agree with charger boy in that most people don't care about green cars. I think most care primarily about driving something halfway fast and reliable that doesn't cost them a ton of money to run. The green business is a secondary bonus.

[70charger_boy]

I've been reading up on the tesla concept.  It sounds like a great concept.  I'm sure alot of people will be sold on the idea, but this is what is going to happen.  As soon as their is a great demand for the car gas prices will go down and the sale of the teslas will go down to Zero.  Then a couple years from now gas will go up.  It's a complacency thing or "yo-yo economics" at work

[Troy]

Troy, I don't think the people in California really care about driving green cars, at least in the Los angeles area.  Those people are primarily concerned with driving around some of the biggest gas guzzling cars and suv's and really don't care about gas, because the average salary is way up there compared to the rest of the country.

There are certainly more "greenies" there than here. It's not the only place where it makes sense but it is a good choice to start there with the car. If you check out what I wrote earlier you'll see they have plans to expand. The cost of living in California is also much higher which negates the higher salaries to some extent. I have more usable income where I'm at.

Also there is a developer in Cape Cod that wants to build a windmill farm and once again the people are opposing it, because it takes away from their ocean view.

That's a problem in many areas - it's the whole NIMBY (Not In My Back Yard) attitude. It's along the same lines as wanting everyone else to change as long as you aren't personally affected. Around here it's: "Light rail is a great idea and would be the best thing for our city in the last 50 years. What? You plan to run it through my neighborhood? I'll fight it to the death." There are places in northern Ohio where wind farms are gaining ground but one of the hurdles is that the places with sustainable winds  are near the water and the seagulls get injured. "Sorry, we can't power your city because a seagull flew into a 100' propeller and someone called PETA and now some skinny girl in a flower dress is chained to the tower." (Meanwhile the beach is littered with plastic bags, can holders, syringes, chewing gum, and fishing line.)

The Tesla car proves one of my points though. Rather than continuing with electric car technology car companies just keep dropping it and then it's later picked up again by different companies. Had one or more of them kept developing the technology and supported it with a percentage of their fleets being electric we would be better off today. Maybe half the cars out there now would be electric. Instead we're again caught with our pants down with gas at $3.50/gallon.

The practicality wasn't there before and it was cost-prohibitive (see my comments about businesses needing to make a profit). Tesla was started solely to create a viable electric vehicle. They are not a spin-off or internal project from a larger company whose primary business is selling gasoline powered cars. Fleet cars are not exactly desirable to the general public either so even if you build the technology around them you still need something to sell to everyone else. It's hard to say if we'd be better off since the electric grid would need major improvements/upgrades to handle a massive number of vehicles.

I hope you're right about this Tesla effort but I'll believe it when I see it.

For some reason I seriously doubt that.

And I reluctantly agree with charger boy in that most people don't care about green cars. I think most care primarily about driving something halfway fast and reliable that doesn't cost them a ton of money to run. The green business is a secondary bonus.

I've been saying that all along so I'm glad you finally agree with it. People aren't willing to compromise their lifestyle - that's too much to ask. It's easier to buy the gas while complaining about prices and the inaction of others. When alternative fuel cars are indiscernible in price, utility, and performance from all other vehicles (or better) then they will make inroads into the market. The other scenario is that gas goes high enough to force a change and the complainers will actually do something about it which will make the above statement a reality sooner.

Which brings us right back to my point about the uselessness of rehashing this stuff yet again...

Troy

[Troy]

I've been reading up on the tesla concept.  It sounds like a great concept.  I'm sure alot of people will be sold on the idea, but this is what is going to happen.  As soon as their is a great demand for the car gas prices will go down and the sale of the teslas will go down to Zero.  Then a couple years from now gas will go up.  It's a complacency thing or "yo-yo economics" at work

That is definitely a concern but also something that they've thought of. The current Tesla roadster is certainly not geared towards people who are worried about the price of gas - it costs $90k+, requires maintenance by the dealer, and you need a special outlet installed in your garage. Getting people used to the idea and perfecting the technology to lower costs is what will sustain the market even when (if?) gas prices fall. Realistically, how much would/could prices fall? I don't think they will fall to anywhere near the level most people want. I'd be practically amazed if California sees prices fall under $3 per gallon again (I paid almost that in 2000 when I visited).

Troy

[bull]

I hope you're right about this Tesla effort but I'll believe it when I see it.

For some reason I seriously doubt that.

Doubt what? That I'll believe it when I see it?

And I reluctantly agree with charger boy in that most people don't care about green cars. I think most care primarily about driving something halfway fast and reliable that doesn't cost them a ton of money to run. The green business is a secondary bonus.

I've been saying that all along so I'm glad you finally agree with it. People aren't willing to compromise their lifestyle - that's too much to ask. It's easier to buy the gas while complaining about prices and the inaction of others. When alternative fuel cars are indiscernible in price, utility, and performance from all other vehicles (or better) then they will make inroads into the market. The other scenario is that gas goes high enough to force a change and the complainers will actually do something about it which will make the above statement a reality sooner.

Which brings us right back to my point about the uselessness of rehashing this stuff yet again...

Troy

I've always agreed with that. My point is that had electric car been developed all along we wouldn't be 30 years behind on the technology. You can't tell me we would be where we're at today had electric car technology been continually developed since it's advent. As you said people have been bitching about the price of gas since they made the first gas station so why hasn't the demand been addressed? Need creates demand. Demand creates development. Development creates product. That's the way it usually works.

As far as the uselessness of rehashing this stuff. It's not like it matters here because it's just a discussion. It's all moot in the grand scheme of things. I don't think anything we discuss here has any impact on domestic or foreign policy.

[Troy]

Batteries Bull. The Tesla has a range of 250 miles using (essentially) laptop batteries and a complex software controller. This wasn't possible before the advent of Lithium cells and incredibly fast processors. Previous electric cars tried to use lead acid batteries which are extremely heavy and dangerous in a crash. Believe it or not, the technology in the Tesla is a result of the strides in personal electronics and modern manufacturing consolidation (auto makers source many parts like transmissions and brakes from common wholesalers). Neither of those important factors existed even 10 years ago. Remember the 1999 Charger concept was slated for CNG but the fuel cells were questionable and the exotic parts were just too expensive so problems are not unique to electric vehicles.

"Demand" from a consumer standpoint is what drives product development. I can't remember a time when someone told me they were anxious for an electric or hydrogen car. Companies run countless marketing studies to gauge public reaction and desires. They take those studies and run them by accountants and then make a decision on what is financially viable to produce (or what product ratio has the best profit margin). Case in point: Dodge made a 4-door Charger because the market dictated they could sell more of them than another configuration and the backlash would be negligible. Just because people complain doesn't mean they'll truly change their buying habits.

Troy

[bull]

Ok, fine. Lithium batteries. But again I say had the technology in the electric automotive arena moved forward at a similar pace as computers we would be years ahead of where we are now, simply because there were (and may still be) more cars than computers. Why did computer technology move forward so much faster? Because computers were better than the old "business machines" we once used. But electric cars were, and still are, inferior to gas-powered cars in many ways. And yet there's always been a need for alternative fuels due to the instability of oil production and yet the scientists, car makers and "techies" have been dragging their feet in that area, focusing their efforts instead on electronic toys I guess. So we basically have to admit that the market is driven not by what we need but what we want. I can't help but think video games, iPods and plasma TVs have more to do with the invention of the Tesla than high gas prices. That's sad but I guess it's reality.

I can't remember anyone saying they were anxious for an alternative propulsion system either but isn't complaining about high gas prices virtually the same thing? For years people have been clamoring about that as being a problem but those with the brains and power to do something about it do not seem not very motivated. If they were we wouldn't still be years away from driving electric SUVs and minvans. Hell, America's farmers probably could have been producing ethanol to fuel 3/4 of the country by now had they been asked to rather than accepting crop subsidies from the government to NOT grow wheat or let it rot in silos.

[Brock Samson]

 Troy:

    "Sorry, we can't power your city because a seagull flew into a 100' propeller and someone called PETA and now some skinny girl in a flower dress is chained to the tower."


     it was worth reading the entire thread for that one line... BRAVO Troy.. 

[Orange_Crush]

Well, I'm really pissed at the rise of gas prices in the last 3 months.  I drive 100 miles a day roundtrip to work and back in a 5.2 liter truck.  I don't think it's fair that I spend 106 bucks a week in gas.  I'm sick of paying 3 bucks a gallon and I'm afraid we'll hit 4 bucks a gallon come summertime.  Is there anything we could do?  I'm so  surprised that the people in this country care more about the babies daddy of Anna Nicole and nobody cares about rising gas prices.

So, is there an effective way we can let the oil companies know that we are all pissed?  Maybe boycotting certain gas stations certain days of the week?

The real solution:
1) Get a car that has 4 cylinders
2) Move closer to work or get a job closer to home
3) Stop commuting places for fun and find activities within walking distances
4) Tell your kids to take the bus (and take their cars away)

These are actual solutions for boycotting gas prices.  Ive had other people suggest buying gas on designated days, but its really not the solution because it only changes what days you buy gas, not how much you actually spend.

I've done all I can.  I got a job thats 2.2 miles away from my house. 

Only problem I got now is school. It used to be 1 extra mile away from work, but I just transferred and its now 18 miles away from home.  I still limit my driving habits.  If I buy stuff. its usually online. No more driving to places

You forgot some:

- Buy locally grown produce and meat when possible (you are supporting local family farms instead of huge factory farms overseas AND saving fuel).

-Ride a bike on trips shorter than 5 miles (one way).

-Buy an "on demand" water heater.

-Buy an energy efficient HVAC system (heat pump w/ gas backup is a good compromise).

-If your lawn is relatively small, use a reel-type lawn mower.  Good exercise and doesn't aggravate allergies as much..

-If possible, take the bus to work.  It gives you time to get things done while you commute.  If you are close to work, ride your bike...and research bike shops around your place of business.  Some shops are now offering bike storage AND shower facilities for cyclocommuters.

There is a lot that you can do.  It just takes some imagination.

[1BAD68]

You got to stop worrying about what EVERYONE else is doing around you and concentrate on what you can do to make a difference in your life. Fact is. You don't like spending the money. thats why your agitated. If it wasnt for the price, you wouldn't be saying anything about this. Right?

So do something about it. Stop doing the thing that causes the cost.

It doesn't mean that you can't go out on the weekends with your car and enjoy yourself then. Just means that when going to work you should utilize whats available to you then to help your problem as I see it. (spending a lot of money that you don't want to)

thats about the most useful advise in this whole thread.

[Neal_J]

i'm thinkin this will be my next ride/project...   

Hey, didn't the "Banana Splits" drive those??   

Fleagle, Bingo, Drooper & Snork, right?


Neal

[CharlieCharger]

I've had people tell me not to buy gas from Citgo because of Chavez ...

[Vainglory, Esq.]

Here's a very interesting article that I hope everyone interested in this thread reads.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18492185/

Among the more pertinent things are a restatement of the obviously-not-obvious-enough fact that gasoline markets are commodities markets, and a one-day boycott would have a net effect of almost zero on prices due to the prevalence of long-term contracts, as well as the fact that, by percentages, oil companies are in the bottom 20% of profitability when you compare them to other, similar size companies.  As Troy stated elsewhere, a 12.5% profit margin is not that great, and while the absolute numbers are certainly very high, there is absolutely no evidence of price gouging or greed.

I would hope that we could put this issue to bed sooner rather than later, but I've got $20 that says I get written off as a shill for Exxon...

[70charger_boy]

Ok, so I had the whole weekend to think about what I can do.  I can lower my standard of living and become bitter and aggravated or I can take matters into my own hands.  So, this is what I came up with.  What if I was to tell you that you can fill your car up for FREE..  I say that one more time.  What would you say if I was to tell you that you can fill up for free..  I'm crazy right?
  Here is the plan.  New gas stations have pumps with TV's on them.  It is full of commercials and corporations trying to sell you their goods.  What if I could get 60 big corporations to pay 1 million a year to advertise on my pumps?  That equals 60 million a year.  I will allocate a little over 20 million a year in FREE GAS.  That basically translates to 20,000 gallons a day in free gas that I will give to the consumers, but we all know nothing is free in life so I'll make you guys pay the sales tax wich equals to .60 cents a gallon. 
The gas station will have to be located somewhere isolate as not to disrupt the local city infrastructure.  I propose to locate my station on 100 acres of land.  It will be big enough so I can produce biodiesel and e85 ethanol.  Just think of all the companies I could put out of business? 
Sure, I know what you are thinking.  I'll piss off the oil companies so much that they won't deliver my gas.  I'm going to go to Chavez himself.
Remember, we live in a capitalistic society.  I wouldn't plan on doing this if I wasn't going to make money

I could make money hand over fist......Only one problem......The politicians will never let me do it.  I bet they will have my head.

So what do you think?

[bull]

I've had people tell me not to buy gas from Citgo because of Chavez ...

Regarding this, right? http://www.snopes.com/politics/gasoline/citgo.asp

[Troy]

Ok, this is slightly political but it has a point.

In his book "The New American Way," released in March, Bradley calls for reducing American dependence on foreign oil by raising fuel economy standards and placing a new tax on gasoline.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070509/ap_on_el_pr/on_the2008_trail;_ylt=AkKcC5p7qaLCR594ifXxi2MGw_IE
(There are other links by the way and the book of course so I don't get accused of providing slanted sources.)

Now, the reason I'm bringing it up is this: the goal is to increase the price of fuel by $1 per gallon so that people will curb their consumption. Let me repeat, raise the price of fuel by $1 per gallon. The net effect is that, even though people are spending the same amount or more, less of it goes to the oil companies and more goes to the government. If the average citizen (like many here) is stressed about how much they are spending on fuel and how that affects the price of many other goods then this does nothing to improve that situation. It actually makes things worse in the short term. Now, why would they do this? It forces a change in behavior. A common theme of mine... few will change direction until it's too painful to follow their current path (or unless a better, easier path appears).

The other reason is selfish of course. Will the tax revenue go to research alternative fuels? No. It appears to mainly be a plot to increase revenue by hiding behind the noble goal of saving the world (kind of like saving the children but appeals to a larger audience). It's the common story of punishing the rich (people who live away from the city and drive cars and recreational vehicles) to benefit the poor (along with horribly mismanaged government programs like Social Security). Although, in this case those rich people could easily become poor which increases dependence on the government. Go figure. Oil companies are in business to sell oil - they aren't going to raise the prices so much that people stop buying. In the same vein, they aren't going to make a change until it becomes painful (they lose money) so I wouldn't expect a viable alternative to come from government or big oil.

Basically, let's do something ourselves before something like this happens. I'd rather see people making a change in order to save money than give the government more opportunities to waste it. I used the electric weed eater yesterday to trim the yard instead of the lawnmower so that's a start. I'm also trading cars to cut down on my gas usage for daily driving. Since the dogs moved away I'm not running the A/C at the house either. Someone stole the tv so I shut of the satellite instead of replacing it. I'm technically not doing any of this to save money but I felt I was wasting energy and these aren't difficult choices for me. I'll be cutting down on my traveling this year too although that one is hard to swallow. The primary reason there is time but also money to some extent.

Troy

[Troy]

Well, this is certainly entertaining:
Gas station owner told to raise prices
Center City BP owner Raj Bhandari has been offering senior citizens a 2 cent per gallon price break and discount cards that let sports boosters pay 3 cents less per gallon.

But the state Department of Agriculture, Trade and Consumer Protection says those deals violate Wisconsin's Unfair Sales Act, which requires stations to sell gas for about 9.2 percent more than the wholesale price.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070509/ap_on_fe_st/odd_cheap_gas

Troy

[Big Lebowski]

  Yep, without actually saying it, there's a certain climate treaty about to make it $8.00 a gallon. Certain un-named people in high places who write climate books and make climate movies actually call for "HIGH" fuel taxes to get us out of our smog belching filthy Earth destroying rusty clunkers. That's all I'm saying about the costs of gas these days.

[bull]

Do you really think these extremists would change their minds about raising the gas prices if we did manage to curb usage by a large degree? I don't think so. Their agenda is not to save gas it's to eliminate the use of it altogether IMO. They will not be satisfied until the economy is laid to waste and we're all riding in horse-drawn wagons. Of course then PETA would get pissed about that sort of "animal abuse" so we couldn't do that either.

[TUFCAT]

Here's the new ISO registered universal sign for gas stations

[70charger_boy]

Do you really think these extremists would change their minds about raising the gas prices if we did manage to curb usage by a large degree? I don't think so. Their agenda is not to save gas it's to eliminate the use of it altogether IMO. They will not be satisfied until the economy is laid to waste and we're all riding in horse-drawn wagons. Of course then PETA would get pissed about that sort of "animal abuse" so we couldn't do that either.

But, who will clean up the horse crap? 

[6670charger]

Yeah, I thought about that, but then I said WHY THE F___K should I alter my lifestyle so the oil companies can make more money?  For every one person who does the right thing my taking the bus or rideshare there are 20 teenagers driving all day picking up chics.

Do I make sense or am I babbling?  If I'm babbling I apologize my meds haven't kicked in yet

Comparing driving to work with kids cruising the block?  You're comparing apples to green peppers.   Absolutlely no correlation.  Same with your thought about altering your lifestyle. 

If your goal is to save money and stick it to the Oil Companies, the others have given you sound advice.  You need to change your lifestyle:  Carpool.  It'll save you money out of pocket for fuel, save your money in wear and tear on your vehicle, and significantly reduce the amount of money you put into the pockets of Big Oil.   Your only other options are to either get a more fuel effiecient vehicle, (however, the cost of that alone will pay for a hundred tanks of gas alone and you still have to put fuel into it too), or move closer to where you work (that would likely be even more expensive).

We still pay significantly less per gallon for gasoline than many other countries do.   I can still remember my parents complaining about the price of gas and how expensive it was back in the late 70's when it went up to nearly $1/gallon.  We've just been spoiled for so long with cheap gas prices that it's hard to get used to them now.   $3/gallon gas is here to stay.  Get used to it.

[Orange_Crush]

Personally, I would not have a problem with gas going up to 5 bucks a gallon.

Sure, it would cause some hardship, but thisnk of the benefits.

1.  more expensive fuel, less cars on the road, fewer "red ozone" days in big cities.

2.  More people walking or on bikes for short trips results in a generally healthier population.

3.  High cost of power means that people will spend more time outside...the return of the front porch.  Neighbors get to know neighbors a little better.

4.  The high cost of transporting food means a rise in family farms and local produce prices go down.

5.  People move closer top their place of business resulting in less urban sprawl and more "village" type communities.  Sprawl would be seriously curtailed.

6.  Higher cost of travel means that people stay and explore their immediate surroundings a little more.

Certainly, it would not be a utopia, but I'm willing to bet that we would live in a much better society than we do now.

[bull]

5.  People move closer top their place of business resulting in less urban sprawl and more "village" type communities.  Sprawl would be seriously curtailed.

I wouldn't like this one at all. The part of town where I work is affectionately known as "Felony Flats" and you see a lot of meth activity and homes where yard ornaments used to be living room furniture, appliances and vehicles. The time it would take to turn that area around would outlive my patience.

Plus, the way corporations operate these days I can't see a whole lot of people feeling too confident about moving closer to work if they're not sure they'll have the job in a few years.