Hypothetical weapons use question; would it be leagl to...

[bull]

I would also let the cops know that if they refuse to look into the problem the first time anything out of the ordinary happens i would tell them that you are going to talk to the local news station, they love doing stories like this.

That's not a bad idea. Call the TV news people and tell them the situation. Most news agencies love to point out flaws in the local law enforcement agency and I would think being held hostage in your own house by hooligans in the driveway would be of great interest to them and the general public.

[BB1]

Two words,.... Pit Bull. 

[MichaelRW]

The cop's response to you is absolute BS. Call your councilman, even the Mayor's office and explain your situation and that you feel threatened. In addition to the local TV news station call or write the local newspaper.

[TNT300]

The cop's response to you is absolute BS. Call your councilman, even the Mayor's office and explain your situation and that you feel threatened. In addition to the local TV news station call or write the local newspaper.

Without knowing the laws in every state, this is the best( and safest )  advise yet

[Lowprofile]

Engagement with Extreme Prejudice the first time, and you never have to worry about the next time.  Tossing a nice Molotov cocktail upon the offenders mode of transportation followed up by a few well placed shots from my Wilson Combat modified Remmington 700 would /should be enough to show these scum bags you are not afraid & are willing to fight/defend yourself and your family/home.

Remember, 99% of all criminals/punks/dirtbags/etc....  are cowards themselves. They look to prey on someone weaker than themselves. The other 1% are lunatics and should be put down ASAP......  Happy Hunting.

[CFMopar]

Two words,.... Pit Bull. 

Why? So they can shoot the dog?

In situations like this I like to ask wwcnd? (what would chuck norris do?) Left and right round house kicks from his left and right legs named law and order

But seirously this is a pretty fu*ked up secnario... Me personally. I'd have my buddy cover me and I'd confront them. Just stay out your friends line of shot

[Dave22443]

A friend of mine went through a simular situation with a rental property he was in.  In his case, when he was confronted by the neighborhood thugs in the car, he simply stepped out onto the porch and fired 3 rounds of .308 into the air.  They got the message, nobody got hurt and he never had a problem with them again.

A slightly different situation:  Some relatives of mine, whom will remain un-named, were living in a particularly rough apartment complex and didn't exactly "fit in" if you know what I mean.  The first week they were there, their car was trashed and the wheels were stolen off it right in their own parking spot.  So that weekend, they decided to drink a few beers and do some target shooting in the back yard (their empty beer cans stacked on the back fence of the complex).  From that night forward, they could leave their keys in the car and nobody would touch it!  And amazingly enough, nobody called the cops either!    (special note: even the cops wouldn't go there without a SWAT truck)

Moral of the story - Sometimes a good show of force is all thats really needed.

Oh, and as for me?  I live in the country, so I don't have those problems 

[moparsuebear]

I'd open my gun safe, pull out the ol FAL, load it up with 7.62x51mm ammo and play duck hunt. Woooooheeeee!!!  AKcharger would be so proud!!!! Love you Bill!

-Susan

[BB1]

Then you can get them for discharging a fire arm, and animal cruelty.

[AKcharger]

I'd open my gun safe, pull out the ol FAL, load it up with 7.62x51mm ammo and play duck hunt. Woooooheeeee!!! 

Good Girl, you even got the cartridge size right...I'm proud!

FAL wouln't be a BAD choice but remember it only has a 20rd magazine as opposed to the 30rd in the AR, plus for you the recoil might make it a bit hard to place all the rounds in center mass of the targets from muzzle climb...BUT those 147gr 7.62 bullets from the FAL would do a lot more damage than those lil' 55gr 5.56's bullets from the AR.  Now if you'd let me buy that $9500 .50 Cal Sniper rifle from the BX, that's ideal for home defense!

See ya' soon!

[azraelck]

My fiance and I intend to buy the ultimate in home defense once we get a house with some land.



I seriously doubt anyone wants to look down the barrel of a 75mm main gun, backed by 3 .30-06 Machine guns and one .50cal AAMG.

But seriously, I do not recommend a high-powered rifle or assault weapon for home defense. And while you may have 20-30 rounds in an assault weapon, you have greater risk of injuring or killing an innocent bystander, much much greater. Accurate shot placement is a MUST for those kinds of weapons; spray and pray is for video games. Use the right gun for the job and the terrain. Two rounds of buckshot from your front porch will end the matter clearly, without sending pellets flying into your neighbor's kids as they watch TV. As a plus, shot placement means getting it in the general direction of your target.

One more thing, if you have to dig through the gun safe, you might just be dead. If you have to load it, especially a magazine, your really asking for it. If your keeping a home defense weapon, load the damn thing. Then fix the bayonet. Have it ready to go; when you need it, not afterwards. If your so concerned about kids getting ahold of it, then you obviously didn't raise them right. For 5 generations we've had the same loaded .38 sitting where anyone can reach it. not once has it been picked up without permission by a young one. We don't let brats in the house, so no issues there. We have a gun safe but it's never locked. Doesn't even have a lock anymore. Closest to keeping a gun 'locked' is I used to keep the magazine to my little .22LR rifle in top of the closet, while the rifle itself sat in a corner. Always kept it loaded; in fact, until recently all guns remain loaded and ready to go. 

[greenpigs]

More of the same from me:

Are you sure it was a real firearm?

Smoking someone and finding out it was a pellet gun after the fact will not do you much good. I am not sure if a pellet gun even matters(as a "firearm") but unless your shot in the eye\ear you should live. Call the cops and let them deal with the punks and if possible get the licences plate number and a good description of the car for them.

[Dave22443]

As it was already stated, the cops WERE called and replied with a "too busy, your not important enough" response.  The last time I had a cop tell me that I kindly reminded him that the only reason I call him is to do the paperwork, which I never was good at.

To me, it doesn't matter if the gun being displayed was real or plastic.  In a car, at night, under a dome light, its hard to tell.  In the end, it makes no difference.  They're advertising their intent.  You can't sit there and ask yourself if you feel lucky.  You lock, load and do a little advertising of your own.  Maybe you feel threatened and you let fly the rounds through the windshield?  Maybe you feel more kindly and send a round or two into orbit? Or maybe you just take aim and smile?  Either way is OK with me.  Its your call.  I'd rather be in jail alive then dead and gone. 

Besides, if they kill you, what's to stop them from killing your family next?

[AKcharger]

One more thing, if you have to dig through the gun safe, you might just be dead. If you have to load it, especially a magazine, your really asking for it.

Agree 100% My family lives on a military base guarded by people with machine guns, so all my weapons are locked up and unloaded (magazines to to avoid spring wear) we are not concerned with thugs now...just when we own our own home...and I do agree a shoutgun is best, I just have all these cool assault rifles going to waste!

Guys - the real vs. toy gun is a good thought, if the situation was a one off occurrence I'd just call the cops and think they were idiots. But with a pattern or harassment it's reasonable to suspect their motives and weapons are sincere

[moparsuebear]

I'd open my gun safe, pull out the ol FAL, load it up with 7.62x51mm ammo and play duck hunt. Woooooheeeee!!! 

Good Girl, you even got the cartridge size right...I'm proud!

Well baby, to be honest..... I had help from our 17 yr old twin sons on what gun and ammo to use. You should be proud of yourself that you taught them in the ways of weapons so well!!! Go NRA and Bill!!!! I'll see you in one week!!! "I'm leaving on a jet plane......" I love you!!!

[bull]

You know, accidents happen all the time. I read somewhere that most accidents happen within the home or just a few miles within a certain radius of the home. I think if this were happening to me there would be an "accident" of some sort happening right in my own driveway. A gasoline spill followed by an accidental ignition, a propane bottle dropped onto a windshield, a ladder with an open can of red paint falling, a mislaid Molotov cocktail, a deep-fried turkey spilling onto a nearby car, even the accidental discharge of a weapon while cleaning. There are a number of ways to "accidentally" deal with this problem.

[AKcharger]

You know, accidents happen all the time. I read somewhere that most accidents happen within the home or just a few miles within a certain radius of the home. I think if this were happening to me there would be an "accident" of some sort happening right in my own driveway. A gasoline spill followed by an accidental ignition, a propane bottle dropped onto a windshield, a ladder with an open can of red paint falling, a mislaid Molotov cocktail, a deep-fried turkey spilling onto a nearby car, even the accidental discharge of a weapon while cleaning. There are a number of ways to "accidentally" deal with this problem.

I never thought about it that way?

[DodgeByDave]

I am not a lawyer but,

In Indiana; once a weapon is produced in public (BB gun, baseball bat, a stick off the street, whatever) all bets are off. It's shoot first and ask question later.

In or on your private property, all you have to feel is threatened to be able to use deadly force. And the old wives tail of don't let them off your property/ drag them back on is just that. An old wives tail.

IMHO every citizen should be aware of what the laws are in regards to self defense. In Indiana, the Supreme Court (state) ruled that just because a suspect is retreating DOES NOT diminish the threat to the victim, even if they (the suspect) are wounded. However an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, and even if your shoot was by the book that still does not preclude the possibility of civil suit by the suspect for civil rights violations. Aye, theres a new rub on the deal.

Your choice of tools for self defence will play a big part in how your shoot is adjudicated. Your local prosecutor is the one whom determines if charges are filed or not, not the police. The police investigate and submit evidence and most likely DA will go by their recommendations. However, you must remember that these guys are elected officials and won't hesitate to make a political statement at your expense about your demon gun and how this is proof of the evils of firearms. And if you pull that fancy poodle shooter AR-15 in a defense situation and accidental shoot an innocent bystander, you're most likely to be prosecuted for criminal recklessness at least and manslaughter/ 3rd degree murder at worst. Consider this: I have an AR-15 in 9mm and a Marlin Camp 9 (9mm) both have the same magazine size (20 round), same cal. (9mm) but the shoots by both weapons would be adjudicated differently based on the appearance of the weapon alone.

I'm not sorry if this offends anyone but rifles are a poor choice for home/self defence. Lots of factors play a role here; weapon size, caliber, bullet weight, powder charge, bullet type, etc.. The rifle tends to chamber a higher powered round than the hand gun or shotgun and therefore the odds of an over penetration situation increase exponentially. The rifle cartridge also tend to use a jacketed conical ammunition that whilst generating optimal bullet deformation in game they were designed for (in the case of .223, shooting poodles), most will not deform with any degree of acceptable performance in human targets. My G-3 stays in the gun safe all locked up nice and warm and safe while my mossberg pump is at the ready. First round buckshot, second round gas, third round a smoker, forth round deer slug. And for anybody that may want to stick around, the fifth round is a dragon's breath. You don't swat flies with a sledgehammer.

In my Glock 17, I load with Federal Hydra-Shok frangible ammunition. Once penetration is achieved the bullet shrapnel's into 6 pcs for increased trauma and tissue damage. Winchester Black Talons and Remington Ny-Clads are also good choices but availability my be limited or restricted by law in your area as commercially available ready to fire cartage. But if you load your own like I do you can buy the bullets in bulk so the restrictions are moot. Again, do the right thing and play it straight. But remember the right thing changes from state to state.

In my SA XD, I use Glazier Safety Slugs. The gelatin encapsulation prevents the shot from pounding out the barrel so you get a nice compact sawed-off shotgun without the class 3 hassles.

Don't forget that in todays modern world there are less than lethal alternative ammo choices like bean bag rounds, rubber ball rounds, nets, gas, etc. Be creative.

And lets not forget the other choices in self defence like tasers and pepper spray. I used to be in charge of security at a major bar here in Indianapolis and I can tell you from first hand knowledge that even the toughest drunk or drug addict ain't gonna be so tuff once squirted with OC. Get it in they're eyes,nose and mouth. I use the Sabre Red in LEO strength with an ultraviolet dye for ID later if needed.

Home defense is just like working on our cars, and I don't think there is anyone of us that has only one tool in the tool box.

Be safe, shoot safe.

DBD

[bull]

I'm not sorry if this offends anyone but rifles are a poor choice for home/self defence. DBD

Not if you're sniping from the upstairs window.

[MorePwr]

.458 Win Mag...line the bad guys up in a row

[azraelck]

I'm more disturbed by the fact that several members are treating this as a joke. Firearms are not a joke. Laws are tough; and liberals are trying to repeal the right to bear arms. If you use a rifle for home defense you need to go to jail. Your likely the same kind that shoots at anything that moves while hunting; without making sure the target is a deer. My rifle is a military rifle; it has a grenade launching attachment. The sights go out to 1200 meters. Twelve-Hundred. It is not as powerful as a .308, only slightly more powerful than a .30-30. A Mosin-Nagant M1891/30 has sights that range up to 2000 meters. Two-thousand. It fires a round that is ballistically similar to the .30-06. Assault rifles have ranges from 300-500 meters. The original assault rifle; the StG44; had a range out to 500 meters.

A .30-30 is good out to 150 yards; and it's one of the shortest range rifle cartridges I can think of. Even a .22LR is able to kill out to 100 yards. I've heard estimates out to 200yards with the .17 WMR.   

RIFLES ARE DANGEROUS! It is not a joke. Legal issues are not a joke. When the range is measured in feet, a weapon designed to reach out hundreds of yards is NOT what you use. You use a weapon that is designed to dissipate enrgy rapidly; like a shotgun; with a short effective range. Most handguns can reach out up to 25 yards away; but the short barrel length couple with the short cartridge means they have far far less energy.

If you are sniping, then it is not home defense. You're just waiting for some slob to appear so you can shoot him. Sniping is done by the military; not a law abiding citizen! Sniping is not used for home defense!

[moparsuebear]

I'm more disturbed by the fact that several members are treating this as a joke. Firearms are not a joke. Laws are tough; and liberals are trying to repeal the right to bear arms. If you use a rifle for home defense you need to go to jail. Your likely the same kind that shoots at anything that moves while hunting; without making sure the target is a deer. My rifle is a military rifle; it has a grenade launching attachment. The sights go out to 1200 meters. Twelve-Hundred. It is not as powerful as a .308, only slightly more powerful than a .30-30. A Mosin-Nagant M1891/30 has sights that range up to 2000 meters. Two-thousand. It fires a round that is ballistically similar to the .30-06. Assault rifles have ranges from 300-500 meters. The original assault rifle; the StG44; had a range out to 500 meters.

A .30-30 is good out to 150 yards; and it's one of the shortest range rifle cartridges I can think of. Even a .22LR is able to kill out to 100 yards. I've heard estimates out to 200yards with the .17 WMR.   

RIFLES ARE DANGEROUS! It is not a joke. Legal issues are not a joke. When the range is measured in feet, a weapon designed to reach out hundreds of yards is NOT what you use. You use a weapon that is designed to dissipate enrgy rapidly; like a shotgun; with a short effective range. Most handguns can reach out up to 25 yards away; but the short barrel length couple with the short cartridge means they have far far less energy.

If you are sniping, then it is not home defense. You're just waiting for some slob to appear so you can shoot him. Sniping is done by the military; not a law abiding citizen! Sniping is not used for home defense!

and I bet before you go to bed every night you quote the rifle pledge....."this is my gun....."

Obviosly you don't have a family home alone while like we are while my husband serves in Korea for one year. If I had to rely solely on my 9mm Makarov handgun or 357 magnum revolver that requires a steady aim for home defense, I would not feel as safe as I do now with an entire gun safe aresenal of rifles and shot guns at my dispospal! If there was a situation with a criminal in my home, I would be so nervous that I would not be able to safely control a handgun. I would need the power of a rifle or shotgun that doesn't require such accurate aiming.

Oh, and just because one chooses a rifle over a handgun does not make them an idiotic hunter! I am a proud member of the NRA and take gun safety very seriously. This thread was meant to be humerous. Sometimes people just get way too serious.  And oh, my target would be a moose, not a deer! LOL

-Susan

[MorePwr]

I'm more disturbed by the fact that several members are treating this as a joke. Firearms are not a joke. Laws are tough; and liberals are trying to repeal the right to bear arms. If you use a rifle for home defense you need to go to jail. Your likely the same kind that shoots at anything that moves while hunting; without making sure the target is a deer. My rifle is a military rifle; it has a grenade launching attachment. The sights go out to 1200 meters. Twelve-Hundred. It is not as powerful as a .308, only slightly more powerful than a .30-30. A Mosin-Nagant M1891/30 has sights that range up to 2000 meters. Two-thousand. It fires a round that is ballistically similar to the .30-06. Assault rifles have ranges from 300-500 meters. The original assault rifle; the StG44; had a range out to 500 meters.

A .30-30 is good out to 150 yards; and it's one of the shortest range rifle cartridges I can think of. Even a .22LR is able to kill out to 100 yards. I've heard estimates out to 200yards with the .17 WMR.   

RIFLES ARE DANGEROUS! It is not a joke. Legal issues are not a joke. When the range is measured in feet, a weapon designed to reach out hundreds of yards is NOT what you use. You use a weapon that is designed to dissipate enrgy rapidly; like a shotgun; with a short effective range. Most handguns can reach out up to 25 yards away; but the short barrel length couple with the short cartridge means they have far far less energy.

If you are sniping, then it is not home defense. You're just waiting for some slob to appear so you can shoot him. Sniping is done by the military; not a law abiding citizen! Sniping is not used for home defense!

I find it more disturbing that some are using this thread to show off their firearm knowledge or lack of,(25 yards? thats a bbgun) and toys in or out of their safes. grenade launcher...wtf?...creepy! let me guess you go to the shooting range dressed up in a swat uniform

Assuming that people who aren't uptight about guns, as you apparently are. are unknowledgeable or reckless, is just plain dumb .

I'll translate my posts for you.                                    translation:                                          or:
first one:  POPPOPPOP POPPOPPOP POPPOPPOP         three consecutive three round bursts       :iagree:shoot!

second post: Line up the bad guys for the .458           Save bullets                                            Funny!


If anyone here is stupid enough to take those posts seriously then..... oops sorry didn't mean to call anyone stupid

would the use of my .458 on my 24 acre wooded property be a bad choice for home defence? it is always handy for bear.I know it's a rifle but, so?  A scenario maybe you hadn't thought of?

Bottom line is, if I need to defend, I'm going to defend, with whatever! aim, don't miss and choose your backdrops.
if unsure about the last part, practice practice practice!

[AKcharger]

Yeah, you tell 'em!!

[azraelck]

One at a time here:

Moparsuebear: Aside from a bad attempt to insult me and turn the taking of a life into a video game; two things; first off; this thread never was about hunting. If you think home defense and hunting are the same, then you need help. Second, to say a rifle does not need accuracy is beyond stupid. You fire from the hip, unless you've practiced a lot; your just as likely to miss with a rifle as a pistol. Difference being is your irresponsibility has put everyone around you in danger. And to say you NEED the "power of a rifle" in a situation that distances are measured in feet, not yards; is equally stupid. The AK47 as an effective range out to 300m, or somewhere over 900 feet. Do you have well over 900 feet to give yourself when your shot misses? Howabout when it punches clean through the intruder and goes out a back wall and into your nieghbor's home? Rifle bullets are very high velocity compared to a psitol or shotgun. In the case of the AK47's 7.62x39; it fires a 123 grain FMJ bullet at a muzzle velocity of 2329 fps. The FAL fires a much heavier 168 grain bullet at 2680fps; assuming it's 7.62x51mm NATO.What do you think the energy at 7 feet is in that little bullet? The velocity? Do you think that that round magically stops as soon as it hits something? It doesn't, it slows down first; just like your Charger does when you apply the brake. Damage is done by the bullet deforming; but at such high velocities, and close ranges; more often than not you'll have the same problem that the brits had with their .303 round when international convention banned use of hollowpoint or their 'dum dum' bullets. The bullets went clean through the target, and the target kept coming. And that was at combat ranges; not home defense ranges. It wasn't until later that they developed a round that caused significant injury to the target. Instead of expanding; it tumbed through the target like a buzzsaw; and exit wounds were a gorey affair.

This thread was not meant to be joking; the original topic was about a threat to the man's family; and what his response should be. Saying it's humerous jsut shows how ignorant you are. Your not going to be anyless nervous or scared with a rifle than with a shotgun (which, I recommended, if your were literate enough to note). And while a shotgun or pistol won't have the energy to penetrate two walls and a person even at the close ranges entailed in a home defense; a rifle most likely will. We had a hole straight through our entire house where somebody fired through it. Longways. The interior holes are still there. Whats more, is it was a varmit rifle; small bore. Don't tell me I don't know what I'm talknig about.

Morepwr: Childish insults the only way you have to refute actual fact? Are you fapping to your "owning" me? Or is it "Pwn" now; I'm too old for that crap anymore. I bought my M1938/51 because I collect military rifles, you twit. I don't go to the range in a swat outfit, or military outfit. I go in a tshirt, jeans, and boots. If it's cold, I'll wear a jacket. The rifle was built with the attachment long before I bought it; and I see no reason to take it off; since it doesn't affect the gun's preformance. I'm getting an M1891/30 Mosin Nagant soon as well; maybe an M1944 Carbine if I feel like it. Because I want to own a piece of history, and to enjoy firing a finely made firearm. I rarely hunt; and I say a prayer that I don't ever have to kill anyone. While you may find it a glorious and grand thing; worthy of fun and excitement; I'm not so barbaric. I don't even like hunting unless the animal will be entirely used. When it comes to human lives; I'm infinitely more cautious. I don't despise my nieghbors to the point that firing a big bore rifle straight at them is what I want to do; and I'm responsible enough to make sure even when firing the weapon that's served this family for 5 generations in the role; that I hit what I aim at.

Yes, pistol's tend to have a short effective range. One of the highest velocity pistols I've seen (not more powerful, actually) is a .45 caliber round that from a M1911-style pistol reaches average speeds in excess of 1200 fps. Over a thousand feet per second slower than the short, lightweight 7.62x39 in an AK. Barrel length is a big culprit; a number of pistol rounds are far more capable in a rifle; more of the powder is actually used to propel the bullet, rather than creating a big bang and flash. I find 25 yards to be a generic safe groud, though some can be effective at lnoger, or shorter, ranges. Given that your not operating within a range of yards, but feet, is always a consideration. Not everyone has enough land to fire a rifle and know they won't hit a person due to the distances over their land. So that argument is nulled immediately. Asides from that, you fire your rifle; and guess what, that 2200fps bullet went through the guy and struck your wife. Whoops. Despite your claims to grandeur and desire to find someone to shoot; in a home defense, your scared shitless. You can barely think. And your not going to notice that someone might be on the other side of your target.  Talking about lining them up for a single shot with a 458 just proves my point. Just because it's not a big bore rifle doesn't mean it won't punch clean through.

Yeah, I'm uptight. I don't treat a tool used to kill a person as a joke (read it, if your literate enough, and see that it is a tool USED to kill, not something that kills on it's own); nor do I view combat, or having to fight in defense of your life, as humerous, glorious, or grand. Unlike you, I was taught early on what a gun can do. I was shooting when I was walking. And I know that even the lowliest of cartridges is designed to kill. If anyone is stupid, dumb, ignorant, and just plain retarded enough to make a joke of killing another human being; then that's their problem. I'm just glad I don't live near you, so I won't get another rifle round tearing through my walls. And if I actually go hunting, I won't have to worry about walking next to a bush, and getting automatic fire from an M16 in response to the leaves rustling.

For the record; this is a been there done that for me. The gun I have in my desk is older than any member on this site; in fact, most likely it's older than any two. There's not many old enough to have lived when it was made. And for 5 generations; it has served the family well; in the last three, it has been used 4 times; once by me. I trust my life and the life of my family to this revolver, and it's never let us down once. I grew up in a neighborhood where the house next door was a crack house, and drive by shootings were common. Even out here, where a rifle bullet came through our wall one night; it hasn't been quiet. The one time I fired a gun out of necessity was out here in the country. I know I have a personal responsibility with every round I fire, to ensure that if does not endanger anyone other than my intended target.  This is a legal and moral responsibility that anyone who owns a firearm has. People like you two, who trivialize self defense and view it as a grand, glorious affair, are what gives gun owners and rights activists a bad name. There are things that don't need to be given in a light of humor. There is nothing good about it. Nothing grand, nothing glorious. Your scared shitless; and you have a split second to react. And your engaged in the killing of another human being. It's not funny, cute or humerous. To view it as such is beyond stupid.

Have you ever though about the lawsuits filed? Howabout when your going before a judge, to explain why you 'happened' to have a scoped hunting rifle up in your attic "just in case". "Do you care to explain to the jury, why you thought it necessary to have a fully automatic weapon sitting in your home, without the proper liscense; and why you felt that this poor man who says he was walking up to ask to use your phone needed to have his legs cut off buy fully automatic fire? Do you? You were just waiting to try out that assault rifle weren't you? WEREN'T YOU!"

Have fun with 'Bubba'.