Electronic Ignition Troubles, No Spark on a 440

[metallicareload99]

Hey folks, I don't seem to be getting any spark at the spark plugs.  Ignition is the MoPar Performance Electronic with the Orange box on a 440 that replaced the original 318.  New distributor appears to be made by Mallory.

I was able to get the car to back fire and even run for a few seconds using only the new RB distributor with the entire original working 318 ignition (Alt, wiring, ballast, ECU).  When I began having the no spark issues I began replacing parts with new ones starting with the coil, then the ECU, then the ballast.

Currently the car has a new distributor, ballast, coil, Orange ECU, plugs, and plug wires.  Only thing reused is the car wiring, alternator and electronic voltage regulator.  The original 318 ignition worked fine, even after dropping the 440 in place of the 318.

Was able to get the 440 to run a second or two until the alternator's brushes were wrecked because I hooked/screwed them back on wrong.  I fixed the brushes, but then I began to have this problem of no spark.  I tried to see if there was a spark by "grounding" the #1 spark plug against the exhaust header as suggested elsewhere.  There appears to be no spark.

I replaced the  original orange ECU, which seemed to be working any way, with the new one I got in the MoPar performance kit.  I cleaned the back of the box and made sure where the box was mounted was clean bare metal.  I even used a wire to connect to a ground.  Battery reads 13.2 volts.  All plug wires are properly connected as is the coil wire.  Still there is no spark.

I was wondering if the damage to the alternator's brushes could have directly caused this no spark issue as it seems to have began more or less after it?  Any suggestions or a way to test the ignition?  Any and all help is appreciated 

[mally69]

well i had this problem when i tried to start my 440  for the first time this spring   what happend to mine is the voltage regulator was bad  and since it was bad i blew 2 inition boxes out the orange one first and then a black one

if i were you id would first buy a new voltage regulator if that dont wotk id look into another ignition box    that in my mind would be the fisrt step

[Plumcrazy]

Pull the coil wire out of the cap and see if you have spark there.

[metallicareload99]

I wasn't sure what would happen or what symptoms I would see if a voltage regulator was bad.  I do have a new voltage regulator from the local parts store, but it seems to be the old mechanical voltage regulator.  I'm not sure how to hook it up properly.  It appears to be the same one pictured in the service manual.    I'll try and get a new electronic one soon.  Plumcrazy, when I pull the coil wire out of the cap does it have to be grounded on anything?  I'm going to work on it later today.  Thanks guys

[Nacho-RT74]

Old mechanical regulator is hooked:
Blue wire coming from ignition switch on big terminal, and green wire hooked on smal terminal going to alt brush. Both wires dirves positive. This is to one field alternators.

Electronic regulator:
This regulator must work with DOUBLE FIELD alternators. Is feeded with blue wire to get positive signal, but this wire is spliced also to one of alternator brush fields. This blue wire drives positive and plugs on top terminal of regulator. Also uses a grren wire BUT THIS WIRE doesn't drive anymore positive, drives negative that regulator takes from chassis and feeds the other field brush on alternator. This alternators are regulated different from earliers with ground variations changing magnetic field power on alt rotor, for a while positive is constant.

My advice and I think same opinion of the rest: is mandatory with Electronic Ignition upgrade with electronic regulator and double field alt. Electronic ignition needs better and constant power source and regulation. This is not guaranteed with electromechanical regulators.

about your fail... I would say just loosen terminals

[Plumcrazy]

  Plumcrazy, when I pull the coil wire out of the cap does it have to be grounded on anything?  I'm going to work on it later today.  Thanks guys

Hold it with a pair of insulated pliers about 1/4 inch from a good ground.   You want to see a blueish white spark when the engine is cranked over.

[metallicareload99]

I was going to order one of these electronic voltage regulators:

http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/volreg.html

But I was concerned about it being "For race applications only."  The alternator is dual field, and my guess it is not part of the original 1968 charging system, so I wasn't sure which regulator to get.  Thanks for the suggestions guys, and the explanation Nacho

[Plumcrazy]

I was going to order one of these electronic voltage regulators:

http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/volreg.html

But I was concerned about it being "For race applications only."  The alternator is dual field, and my guess it is not part of the original 1968 charging system, so I wasn't sure which regulator to get.  Thanks for the suggestions guys, and the explanation Nacho

Don't buy the one "for racing applications".    Buy the one that says OE Musclecar.

[metallicareload99]

I haven't had a chance to work on it yet, but I was wondering if the voltage regulator is bad, could it have blown the orange ignition boxes?  And what, other than getting old and worn out, would cause an electronic voltage regulator to go out?  Thanks again folks

[metallicareload99]

Bumpage

The red field wire was cooked pretty good and I guess it was "grounded" when it shouldn't have been when the alternator ate the brush, could that event have taken out the voltage regulator?  Also I was wondering IF the voltage regulator went bad, could it have blown my orange ignition boxes too?  And what, other than getting old and worn out, would cause an electronic voltage regulator to go out?

I'm thinking that with some new wiring, voltage regulator and a new ECU I can have this thing up and running?  What do you guys recommend for an ECU that is durable enough for the street, as I have heard that the orange box's have durability issues?  I was thinking of either MoPar's Chrome Box or this Mancini one (looks like it might be MoPar's orange one with different paint):

http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/mrehpconun.html

Thanks again for any help

[Nacho-RT74]

Mopar ECU modules from stock street to high Performance competition levels are ( in order):
Black
Orange
Chromed.
Gold

They have RPMs rates about the performance you need, but don't recall the rates.

About wiring, this diagram made by me is showing 3rd gen bulkhead conector view, specifically 72, rest just have turned around wires on plugs, but anyway colors are the same to all gens ( for a while "paint" let me make it similar ) and shows how is wired the engine harness. There is not any red wire on engine harness. On engine bay only red wires are the ones related with batt, starter motor and starter relay, and also front beams.

Just to everybody with 3rd gens what probably could see this diagram, some notes: 73 has horn and washer reservoir wires on front light harness plug and brake light warning switch is on this one. 74 too but with extra wiring to interlock reset button wires what are not ilustrated.

4 pins ignition modules uses single ballast resistor and the olive green on diagram is unexistant. You can use 4 pins module on 5 pins wiring, including double ballast, but not reversed.

[Nacho-RT74]

BTW I never have seen a damaged regulator could blow the Ignition module. Not saying is impossible, but never have seen that. Damaged regulator simply doesn't send power to alt brushes and will notice discharge at ammeter.

I have had once 24 volts with extremelly low amperes on alt because damaged rotor on alt and still getting spark and ignition module still working perfect right now. Is aftermarket 4 pins blue box COBRA one. Don't know about quality of that brand or performance but untill now works perfect to me. If somebody can talk me about the one I have will be nice.

Check if you have good chassis ground at Module box and all plugs tight and clean. Also tight and clean distribuitor plug. Those loosen plugs are mostly the bigger "headaches" on my car talking about ignition.

[Joshua]

I went through 3 Orange MP ign. boxes on my 440. I had a cheapie spare that I had bought at a local auto parts store and kept it in my glovebox. After the last Orange box failure, I decided to just leave the cheapie spare on it. Been on it now for 5 years.
Also using the "for racing only" voltage regulator.....on the street for the past 8 yrs.

[metallicareload99]

Thank you very much Nacho and Joshua.  Nacho thanks for the explanations and diagrams, car electrical systems is my weakest area of knowledge.  The red wire from the alternator must have been added when a previous owner went to the dual field alternator.  It was taped along the old harness.  Joshua thanks for the info on the ECU and voltage regulator.  Well I have to check things out and think about it some more.  Thanks again for the help

[metallicareload99]

New Question, is the electronic voltage regulator supposed to be grounded to the chassis of the car?  If I recall, the old one was bare metal on the back, but all the new regulators are painted on the back.  I ground off the paint and tried to improve the ground.  Should I have done that?  In addition, does the instrument cluster NEED to be grounded/properly screwed in for the car to be started (I only need the essential electrical systems at this point)?

Also, is it a good idea to use dielectric grease on the bulkhead connector and the harness' connections? 

I also got a new engine harness and a new dash harness from YearOne, plus a new Chrome ECU, new Voltage Regulator, new ballist, a new Alternator, and a new ignition switch.  Hopefully it will work, tired of throwing money and new parts at this problem.  Thanks for any help

[Todd Wilson]

Ballast resistor



Todd

[71_deputy]

New Question, is the electronic voltage regulator supposed to be grounded to the chassis of the car?    YES- use toothed washers!

If I recall, the old one was bare metal on the back, but all the new regulators are painted on the back.  I ground off the paint and tried to improve the ground.  Should I have done that?               YES
!
In addition, does the instrument cluster NEED to be grounded/properly screwed in for the car to be started (I only need the essential electrical systems at this point)? NO- BUT GUAGES WILL NOT WORK CORRECTLY

Also, is it a good idea to use dielectric grease on the bulkhead connector and the harness' connections?  YES!

I also got a new engine harness and a new dash harness from YearOne, plus a new Chrome ECU, new Voltage Regulator, new ballist, a new Alternator, and a new ignition switch.  Hopefully it will work, tired of throwing money and new parts at this problem.  Thanks for any help-

GOOD START TO THE PROBLEM,  also make sure the grounds from the battery to the engine and rad support are clean and tight- no paint. Another good thing to do is add a braided ground strap from the back of the engine to one of the bolts that the voltage reg. bolts to the firewall.

John Mac

[metallicareload99]

Thanks folks.  I hope I can get it running by the end of the weekend

[metallicareload99]

Update:

Car runs fine without the charging/alternator hooked up.  Anyone know if a problem in the charging system can cause no spark to occur in a otherwise good ignition system?  This weekend hopefully we'll get the alternator and it's wiring all sorted out.  440 4-Speed is awesome!