Flush/fill that migrated into blown head gasket and plugged up radiator. Read on

[70charginglizard]

If you have done everything we have suggested there isn't much left..

Have you pressure tested the system yet? Not yet. gotta go rent a pressure tester.

How about the flow across the rad. while the T-stat is open?? what I'm thinking is that when the t-stat opens up the water is backing up over the top of the radiator opening. Plug in the motor?
Any cold spots in the front of the rad. while up to temp??? No cold spots....just hot as hell everywhere across the radiator when motor warms up

[Steve P.]

It would be damn hard to plug the inflow of the rad.  If you are running only water in the system right now, I would fire it up with the cap off and watch the flow. If the water level is at or close to the top of your rad. it IS going to flow out. It will seek it's own level. You SHOULD be able to watch the water flow over the top of the tubes..

[dodge freak]

It may be a head gasket leaking. If you did not start the motor after a rebuilt and a shop did, perhaps somebody added some Barr's Leak in it and when you flush it the stop leak came out also. That Barr Leak's works very good, I had a head gasket that was leaking at 75,000 miles-GM 3100 motor-1 bottle stop it and lasted till 130,000 miles when I flushed the coolant system out-I forgot it was in there. SOB started losing coolant fast and 1big bottle did not stop it. I found some silver looking stuff Barr's Leaks made and I put that in with a small bottle of Bar Leak. It work after a 1 hour drive on the freeway and lasted for another 50,000 miles. We sold the car to a dealer for a grand this summer.

[70charginglizard]

It may be a head gasket leaking. If you did not start the motor after a rebuilt and a shop did, perhaps somebody added some Barr's Leak in it and when you flush it the stop leak came out also. That Barr Leak's works very good, I had a head gasket that was leaking at 75,000 miles-GM 3100 motor-1 bottle stop it and lasted till 130,000 miles when I flushed the coolant system out-I forgot it was in there. SOB started losing coolant fast and 1big bottle did not stop it. I found some silver looking stuff Barr's Leaks made and I put that in with a small bottle of Bar Leak. It work after a 1 hour drive on the freeway and lasted for another 50,000 miles. We sold the car to a dealer for a grand this summer.

More and more it's beginning to point to the heads. Which is very disturbing.
I just got finished flushing the super radiator clean out and taking it for a drive again with straight water and it did pretty good for a little while driving around (averaging around 200/210 degrees) but as I started heading towards home 15 minutes into the drive it started doing it again and shot up to 240/250 and when I got home it threw another temper tantrum.

I have an appointment tomarrow afternoon to have the cooling system pressure tested.

Regarding that Barrs leak stuff. I can tell you with complete confidence that there is no bars leak in that motor anywhere because I was involved in the building of this 440 motor 4 years ago from the block up and that stuff was not added at any time. We took extra care when the heads were placed on the block not to damage the head gaskets and after that everything was torqued to spec. We were very careful about all that stuff.

About the Barr's leak usage, I've heard some good things about it regarding this kind of issue but I've heard a lot more negative about that stuff than positive. Especally when it comes to what it can possible do to the radiator (restricting flow thru the rods) I spent a lot of money recoring that radiator I have in there now and I really do not want to risk doing any damage to it.  Maybe if I had an extra junk radiator laying around that I wasn't worried about damaging I'd consider it. But that's not the case here

[dodge freak]

Yes its a half ass way of fixing the problem. The car we had we knew it was on its last legs, I was not saying to dump 2 big bottles of Barr's Leak in your nice motor, rad and heater core.

Good Luck tomorrow at the shop.

[resq302]

70charginglizard,

I just started reading my Oct. 2006 Muscle Car Enthusiast Magazine and they have an excellent Technical section every month and this month/issue's topic is "Keeping Your Cool - 10 things to know about mucle car cooling systems".  If you have a chane, pick it up as it is VERY informative.  It breaks down the cooling system into parts and tells you myths and facts about everything.   Hopefully this might even answer some questions.

[70charginglizard]

70charginglizard,

I just started reading my Oct. 2006 Muscle Car Enthusiast Magazine and they have an excellent Technical section every month and this month/issue's topic is "Keeping Your Cool - 10 things to know about mucle car cooling systems".  If you have a chane, pick it up as it is VERY informative.  It breaks down the cooling system into parts and tells you myths and facts about everything.   Hopefully this might even answer some questions.

I'll definately do that. Thanks for the tip.

Head into the shop for cooling pressure test tonight. I'll let you all know what they say.

[resq302]

One of the problems they say with air in the system you can tell is if the coolant warms up normally, then all of a sudden has the temp shoot way up on the gauge.  Kinda sounds like what you stated earlier.

[70charginglizard]

Well....

The mechanic put his coolant pressure tester on it and pumped it up and said. Yep, your loosing pressure. Then he told me to fire it up and said with the engine running the pressure is pushing up quickly.

His verdict: Engine has an internal coolant leak. Most likely cause is Blown head gasket or Hairline crack in the cylinder head somewhere.

[myk]

Wait a minute.  It loses pressure when off, but builds pressure when running?  If there was a leak somewhere wouldn't the system fail to pressurize at all? 

[dodge freak]

If the leak is small it could explain it.

Lets hope the motor is ok from running hot. I would first put fresh oil in it, the oil might be getting burnt. Then I would pull both heads, its really not a bad job. It can easily be done with the motor in the car if you did not use studs on the heads. Just drain the bock-take the drain plugs out on both sides, pull the intake, and unbolt the headers and head bolts, bump the motor over till both heads pop loose and take them to a machine shop. Its been a few years, they could use a valve job anyways.

I know it stinks, but a bad crank or cam bearing is much worst. The fresh oil will help stop any lower engine damage. This stuff can and does happen, at least you did not waste $500+ dollars on a new rad.

[rt green]

if theres a crack, it will be bigger when cold. metal expands when heated

[resq302]

I know it is going to sound like a cheap way out but have you considered putting in some barr's leak?  I had a similar minor leak problem with one exhaust stud that went into the head (first one on pass side front part of motor) and it was leaking causing the temps to rise up.  I put in a bottle of barr's leak since I tried putting sealer on the threads of the stud to no avail and the barr's leak fixed it.  If you dont have the money right now and want to continue to use the car you might want to consider using the Barr's leak.  On a good system, I have never had it clog anything although I have heard the horror stories also that my father used to tell.  Of course that was 20 years ago and Barr's could have refined their formula too.  At least this fix might make you able to finish out the end of the season till you can really pull your engine apart in the winter during your down time.

[70charginglizard]

I know it is going to sound like a cheap way out but have you considered putting in some barr's leak?  I had a similar minor leak problem with one exhaust stud that went into the head (first one on pass side front part of motor) and it was leaking causing the temps to rise up.  I put in a bottle of barr's leak since I tried putting sealer on the threads of the stud to no avail and the barr's leak fixed it.  If you dont have the money right now and want to continue to use the car you might want to consider using the Barr's leak.  On a good system, I have never had it clog anything although I have heard the horror stories also that my father used to tell.  Of course that was 20 years ago and Barr's could have refined their formula too.  At least this fix might make you able to finish out the end of the season till you can really pull your engine apart in the winter during your down time.

I tell you it's surely spinning around in my head now that I know for sure that it's not the radiator.
I just wish I had more possitive reinforcement backing up the stuff. I'm mostly concerned about the radiator and heater core and I just don't know if I want to risk damage to those two items or doing anything to restrict the flow of coolant in the system. The motor was bored 30 over and anything comprimising the cooling capabilities could perhaps put the lower end of the motor in jepardy and I just don't know if it's worth the risk.  Know what I mean?

[dodge freak]

I have hear that the factory's all put a small amount of stop leak in every car they make. IDK if its true but I seen it in a magazine. I would think the worst thing could happen is your heater core and rad will get clog up. The motor will flush out. It depends on how bad the leak is on how much it needs. I would try a small bottle-they make a big bottle too but thats asking for a clog rad. Maybe the small one will do it.

I tell you that motor we had that I loaded up with stop leak look bad. It was like clay all around the rad cap.

[firefighter3931]

Barrs Leak is an excellent product. I have used it in the past to seal a leaking head gasket and it worked like a charm. One bottle is all you will need. To use it properly, the engine needs to be brought up to running temperature with the rad cap off. Once the coolant is circulating you shake up the bars leak and slowly add it to the coolant and put the cap back on and let it run for 30 minutes.

That engine ran fine for another 20k miles before i sold the vehicle. 


Ron

[resq302]

To give you specs on my motor, it is bored 30 over also and has a factory 22" rad without a fan shroud and a solid fan (not the clutch type) and it does not run hot or seem to have any clogging in it and I have used a small bottle of Barr's leak.  According to the bottle of Barr's leak (and this could just be a selling point by them) on the back label it says that every new car has factory intalled coolant stop leak in the system to fix any minor leaks from the factory.  Now I am also running a factory 4 speed with either 3.23 or 3.55 in my rear axle.  (don't remember off the top of my head).  I am also running a 160 stat and after it gets up to normal operating temp, I am usually running around 180 around town with stop and go traffic.  Also when I was having my overheating problem, it was during the spell we had in NJ that was darn near 100 degrees every day with a high humidity content.  Once I got all of the air out of my system, it ran just as new.  I also had the same occurance like you that it would warm up like normal to a certain temp, then all of a sudden, jump up like 30 degrees like someone shut the thermostat off.  Mine just happened to be air in the system.  Again, this is just a suggestion and it is your car.  Only you can decide what would be best for your car.  

[MorePwr]

I know it is going to sound like a cheap way out but have you considered putting in some barr's leak?  I had a similar minor leak problem with one exhaust stud that went into the head (first one on pass side front part of motor) and it was leaking causing the temps to rise up.  I put in a bottle of barr's leak since I tried putting sealer on the threads of the stud to no avail and the barr's leak fixed it.  If you dont have the money right now and want to continue to use the car you might want to consider using the Barr's leak.  On a good system, I have never had it clog anything although I have heard the horror stories also that my father used to tell.  Of course that was 20 years ago and Barr's could have refined their formula too.  At least this fix might make you able to finish out the end of the season till you can really pull your engine apart in the winter during your down time.

I tell you it's surely spinning around in my head now that I know for sure that it's not the radiator.
I just wish I had more possitive reinforcement backing up the stuff. I'm mostly concerned about the radiator and heater core and I just don't know if I want to risk damage to those two items or doing anything to restrict the flow of coolant in the system. The motor was bored 30 over and anything comprimising the cooling capabilities could perhaps put the lower end of the motor in jepardy and I just don't know if it's worth the risk.  Know what I mean?

I musta missed something. why are you guys talking about using stop leak? I thought the only place the water was leaving the system, was at the fill hole

[70charginglizard]

I musta missed something. why are you guys talking about using stop leak? I thought the only place the water was leaving the system, was at the fill hole

I believe (because of the coolant system pressure test results...loosing pressure when the engine not running and pressure hopping up when the engine is running) indicates that that coolant is leaving the system either thru a very small crack in the head or a small gap in the head gasket into the top of the cylinder and vaporizing in the exhaust. (even though there is no apparent steam coming out of the tail pipe)
It's not an external leak because we've searched and searched for this all over with the engine cold, warm and hot and have found nothing. No drips on the floor or anything.
Thats why I'm going to pull the spark plugs again and VERY CLOSELY inspect for this condition. If I can find the plug with the worst condition (either super cleaned from jet wash or actually wet from coolant when I pull it. That would be the cylinder with the problem. Then go from there.


Some very interesting reading-
Pressure Testing

Troubleshooting cooling systems doesn't involve quantum physics or any other weird science. Service stations pressure-test cooling systems to pinpoint problems. This can also be done at home with cooling system test kits (which can be rented or borrowed from many auto-parts stores). This setup takes the coolant's temperature to see if the thermostat and electric fan sensor (if equipped) are working properly. It also allows the system to be pressurized through a radiator adapter.

A vacuum/pressure gauge helps narrow down the dilemmas. Vacuum readings reveal potential cracks in a cylinder-head intake port or valve seat. Pressure readings above the system's normal maximum indicate an exhaust-port or valve seat crack. Rising pressure can also indicate a faulty head gasket. (Certain kits have optional radiator-cap adapters to test the cap's vacuum and pressure-relief valves.)

Troubleshooting cooling systems doesn't involve quantum physics or any other weird science. Using the tips here, you can isolate the reasons why your engine is blowing its cool. Then you can decide if you want glycol under your fingernails or would rather pay someone else to get dirty.

[70charginglizard]

Leak-Stoppers

Many of the companies listed below make products designed to plug cooling-system leaks. These chemicals come in different forms—liquid, pellet, powder and tablet—to fix leaks of varying natures and degrees. (Remember that leaks are symptoms of a problem that should be diagnosed to make sure it isn't major.)

Leak-stoppers flow through the cooling system and accumulate at the exit point or expand to plug the hole. Their particles are miniscule so that they won't plug coolant flow through the radiator and heater core. In emergency situations, black pepper has been known to plug minor leaks because it expands when moist.
Leaks that generally respond to leak-stoppers: radiator and heater-core pinholes (but not cracks), seepage from freeze plugs and gaskets (thermostat, manifold and head), and porosity leaks in the engine block and heads. Leaks that often aren't plugged by stop-leaks: cracks in hoses, bad radiator-cap seals, and seepage at the water-pump's shaft.



BLACK PEPPER? never heard of that one.

[resq302]

I have also seen on that TV show called Mythbusters that an egg white fixed a radiator leak.  And they say eggs are no good for you......

[dodge freak]

I hear that sawdust can stop a trans from slipping-till you sell it that is.

[MorePwr]

I musta missed something. why are you guys talking about using stop leak? I thought the only place the water was leaving the system, was at the fill hole

I believe (because of the coolant system pressure test results...loosing pressure when the engine not running and pressure hopping up when the engine is running) indicates that that coolant is leaving the system either thru a very small crack in the head or a small gap in the head gasket into the top of the cylinder and vaporizing in the exhaust. (even though there is no apparent steam coming out of the tail pipe)
It's not an external leak because we've searched and searched for this all over with the engine cold, warm and hot and have found nothing. No drips on the floor or anything.
Thats why I'm going to pull the spark plugs again and VERY CLOSELY inspect for this condition. If I can find the plug with the worst condition (either super cleaned from jet wash or actually wet from coolant when I pull it. That would be the cylinder with the problem. Then go from there.


Some very interesting reading-
Pressure Testing

Troubleshooting cooling systems doesn't involve quantum physics or any other weird science. Service stations pressure-test cooling systems to pinpoint problems. This can also be done at home with cooling system test kits (which can be rented or borrowed from many auto-parts stores). This setup takes the coolant's temperature to see if the thermostat and electric fan sensor (if equipped) are working properly. It also allows the system to be pressurized through a radiator adapter.

A vacuum/pressure gauge helps narrow down the dilemmas. Vacuum readings reveal potential cracks in a cylinder-head intake port or valve seat. Pressure readings above the system's normal maximum indicate an exhaust-port or valve seat crack. Rising pressure can also indicate a faulty head gasket. (Certain kits have optional radiator-cap adapters to test the cap's vacuum and pressure-relief valves.)

Troubleshooting cooling systems doesn't involve quantum physics or any other weird science. Using the tips here, you can isolate the reasons why your engine is blowing its cool. Then you can decide if you want glycol under your fingernails or would rather pay someone else to get dirty.

Yes I agree, See my earlier post about hydrocarbons. if your pressure is jumping up when you run it,,then you probably have exhaust getting to the cooling system.

my point is: while bars leak is great for fluid leaks. it nor any other radiator stop leak, is going to do anything for an exhaust leak

[70charginglizard]

I musta missed something. why are you guys talking about using stop leak? I thought the only place the water was leaving the system, was at the fill hole

I believe (because of the coolant system pressure test results...loosing pressure when the engine not running and pressure hopping up when the engine is running) indicates that that coolant is leaving the system either thru a very small crack in the head or a small gap in the head gasket into the top of the cylinder and vaporizing in the exhaust. (even though there is no apparent steam coming out of the tail pipe)
It's not an external leak because we've searched and searched for this all over with the engine cold, warm and hot and have found nothing. No drips on the floor or anything.
Thats why I'm going to pull the spark plugs again and VERY CLOSELY inspect for this condition. If I can find the plug with the worst condition (either super cleaned from jet wash or actually wet from coolant when I pull it. That would be the cylinder with the problem. Then go from there.


Some very interesting reading-
Pressure Testing

Troubleshooting cooling systems doesn't involve quantum physics or any other weird science. Service stations pressure-test cooling systems to pinpoint problems. This can also be done at home with cooling system test kits (which can be rented or borrowed from many auto-parts stores). This setup takes the coolant's temperature to see if the thermostat and electric fan sensor (if equipped) are working properly. It also allows the system to be pressurized through a radiator adapter.

A vacuum/pressure gauge helps narrow down the dilemmas. Vacuum readings reveal potential cracks in a cylinder-head intake port or valve seat. Pressure readings above the system's normal maximum indicate an exhaust-port or valve seat crack. Rising pressure can also indicate a faulty head gasket. (Certain kits have optional radiator-cap adapters to test the cap's vacuum and pressure-relief valves.)

Troubleshooting cooling systems doesn't involve quantum physics or any other weird science. Using the tips here, you can isolate the reasons why your engine is blowing its cool. Then you can decide if you want glycol under your fingernails or would rather pay someone else to get dirty.

Yes I agree, See my earlier post about hydrocarbons. if your pressure is jumping up when you run it,,then you probably have exhaust getting to the cooling system.

my point is: while bars leak is great for fluid leaks. it nor any other radiator stop leak, is going to do anything for an exhaust leak

It wasn't jumping up when running. Just steadily going up when running. I was watching it very carefully. So whats that?

[MorePwr]

I think we're getting away from each other here, I'm not trying to discount your train of thought on the cracked head scenario, on the contrary I agree with it 100% I'm just calling it an exhaust leak, whereas you're calling it a water leak. We are essentially both correct....A crack in the head  between the combustion chamber and water jacket or port will be a two way street. water will leak down into the combustion chamber when the pressure will allow it, which is why you would typically lose pressure with the engine off... but , when you start the engine it will become a path for exhaust gasses to leave the combustion chamber, because of the substantial pressure difference. this is where we get to my earlier point about the bars leak, in a cracked head scenario between water and exhaust, anything short of a weld will not withstand the pressure.

Very interesting with the vacuum gauge for checking for a cracked head. Grandpa never passed down that information to me, but there is another way. most shops out there have some sort of emissions equipment that will have a device for sniffing exhaust. they are great at detecting stuff like hydrocarbons, a byproduct always found in exhaust, but not in cooling systems....So if you take the "sniffer" and instead of sticking it in the tail pipe. hover it just over the water in the radiator, engine running , of course. if you get any hc reading at all! then you can be assured you have a need to remove your heads.this procedure is not new, magic or involve Quantum physics. I would be surprised if this test will cost you more than 20 dollars, my shop does this for me for free.....

I hope this clears up what I'm talking about.

about my misunderstanding of the" pressure hopping up" to mean a gradual thing, oops my-bad! but really unimportant, as a very, very! small crack can reek havoc on your cooling system, in the form of small air pockets that will cause overheating very quickly, though hardly noticeable at the rad cap..A gradual pressure/volume increase would be normal, since heat creates expansion in everything, that I know of. in your car only to a certain point though. water only expands so much. volcanoing,that you mentioned earlier.. is caused by gas or air escaping, bringing the water along with it. this indicates the water is boiling, or releasing gas.When this happens and you wait a good long while for the red hot motor to cool down, and then refill the system with water again, engine running , so you don't crack the heads. you only end up back at square one again with the air pocket problem.. vicious cycle!

So this is realy just my humble opinion, do with it what you will!

And that Orange crap!...don't bother, it enhances electrolysis, over time rotting metal parts.