No politics... but seriously How long do you think we have left with these cars?

[Davtona]

Last post on this topic.

As was posted earlier:

"Lead, follow, or get out of the way. "                        

[MoparMike68]

Before I "get out of the way" do either of you own EVs ?  If so are you ready too give up your FF vehicles? Yeah me either   
How about Solar...anyone?

[MoparMike68]

I'll bet Mike will be the first too respond  
Gonna just wait then? Ok maybe later   

[Davtona]

My brother has a Tesla model 3 which after a ride in it I was sold. I have a reservation in on a Tesla Cyber Truck. I'm not in the market for car so I'm waiting for the truck. Production on them starts in late 2021. I will be getting rid of my Dodge Ram and replacing it with the EV. So no I don't but its in the works. Got to start somewhere or you will never get there. No I'm not getting rid of my old Mopars.   

[Mike DC]

  

Before I "get out of the way" do either of you own EVs ?  If so are you ready too give up your FF vehicles? Yeah me either   lol
How about Solar...anyone?

Why does buying an EV mean giving up FF cars?   Is there a law against owning both?  

[JB400]

A combination of both floats my boat.  I think they should push hybrid tech a little farther.  Install a two or three cyl engine that makes 50 hp to power a generator that only turns on when battery pack gets below 25 percent.  Might have a range of 1,000 miles depending on the battery and the gas tank on the generator

[Aero426]

A combination of both floats my boat.  I think they should push hybrid tech a little farther.  Install a two or three cyl engine that makes 50 hp to power a generator that only turns on when battery pack gets below 25 percent.  Might have a range of 1,000 miles depending on the battery and the gas tank on the generator

Seems like the best of two worlds, but manufacturers do not want the expense of the dual powertrain.    

[Aero426]

 


Why does buying an EV mean giving up FF cars?   Is there a law against owning both?  

Some people will want or need both.    You want to go hunting in a remote area for a weekend?       Better bring that gas generator.     We won't talk about range or keeping the cabin warm in winter.
You want to pull a car trailer to Carlisle with your EV?    Good luck with that.
You want to travel long distance and put down the miles quickly?     Your ICE gets 400 miles of "charge" in five minutes.     With the EV, even with short charging to get the fastest bang for the time,   you're still looking at what, 20-25 min?

Where does an EV fit in?     For me, it would be a work commuter.    Could I justify the investment?   NFW.

 

[Mike DC]

A combination of both floats my boat.  I think they should push hybrid tech a little farther.  Install a two or three cyl engine that makes 50 hp to power a generator that only turns on when battery pack gets below 25 percent.  Might have a range of 1,000 miles depending on the battery and the gas tank on the generator

My thoughts too.  

They could probably do a half-size battery and a small IC engine.  I dunno about 1000 miles but the range could be significant.  

That engine could be motorcycle-size.  No pushrods, dual cams, etc.  Just a really simple deal that spins at one low RPM, going on/off like a body shop air compressor.    

The engine deal would add weight but the reduced battery pack size could offset most of it.  It would probably cost storage space though. I'm picturing a vehicle's trunk with a motorcycle engine and a 5-gallon gas tank inside. 

Some people will want or need both.    You want to go hunting in a remote area for a weekend?       Better bring that gas generator.     We won't talk about range or keeping the cabin warm in winter.
You want to pull a car trailer to Carlisle with your EV?    Good luck with that.
You want to travel long distance and put down the miles quickly?     Your ICE gets 400 miles of "charge" in five minutes.     With the EV, even with short charging to get the fastest bang for the time,   you're still looking at what, 20-25 min?

Where does an EV fit in?     For me, it would be a work commuter.    Could I justify the investment?   NFW.

This.  

[Mike DC]

          
Texas and power sources -

https://www.texastribune.org/2021/02/16/texas-wind-turbines-frozen/


Michael Webber, an energy resources professor at the University of Texas:  
"Texas is a gas state,"  While Webber said all of Texas' energy sources share blame for the power crisis, the natural gas industry is most notably producing significantly less power than normal.   "Gas is failing in the most spectacular fashion right now," Webber said.

Dan Woodfin, a senior director at ERCOT (Electric Reliability Council of Texas):  
"It appears that a lot of the generation that has gone offline today has been primarily due to issues on the natural gas system.  ERCOT planned on 67GW from natural gas/coal, but could only get 43GW of it online. We didn't run out of natural gas, but we ran out of the ability to get natural gas. Pipelines in Texas don't use cold insulation —so things were freezing."



There's always a politician with an opposing view.  His take is shorter on facts/evidence but it serves his party donors:


U.S. Rep. Dan Crenshaw, R-Houston:
"This is what happens when you force the grid to rely in part on wind as a power source,"  "When weather conditions get bad as they did this week, intermittent renewable energy like wind isn't there when you need it."
 

[Kern Dog]

Does she look cold?

[Davtona]

Why does buying an EV mean giving up FF cars?   Is there a law against owning both?  

You want to go hunting in a remote area for a weekend?       Better bring that gas generator.     We won't talk about range or keeping the cabin warm in winter.
You want to pull a car trailer to Carlisle with your EV?    Good luck with that.
You want to travel long distance and put down the miles quickly?     Your ICE gets 400 miles of "charge" in five minutes.     With the EV, even with short charging to get the fastest bang for the time,   you're still looking at what, 20-25 min?

Where does an EV fit in?     For me, it would be a work commuter.    Could I justify the investment?   NFW.  

I should take delivery of my Tesla Cyber Truck in 2022 so I let you know if the advertised claims are true. The higher end model is advertised to have a range in excess of 500 miles. Payload capacity of 3500 lbs. and a towing capacity of 14,000 lbs. and God knows how much torque. A lot. Will have a on board air compressor and 110 volt outlet for power tools. I guess you could get remote enough that the 500 miles range could be a problem. At 500 miles however the ICE vehicle would be in a similar situation if not for the 80 plus years of infrastructure that has been built for it. I hardly see towing as an issue for three electric motors (AKA trains). Sure the range will drop depending on what you tow. But I'm not to impressed with the mileage I get with my Dodge Ram towing either. In fact I'm sick of it which is reason I want to try something different. Mileage on ICE vehicles has not improved in a real way in 40 years. Sure we add overdrives and more gears but that's useless towing and the cost to tow sucks. And after 500 miles of driving in a day 15 to 20 minutes to take a piss and walk a bit does not seem like a big deal to me.

[Kern Dog]

That Cyber Truck looks like a middle school science project designed and constructed by idiots.

[Davtona]

That Cyber Truck looks like a middle school science project designed and constructed by idiots.

Tell me how you really feel. So does a 3 year old rusted out Silverado, Ram or Super Duty. They have had 60 years of designing behind them. Haven't figured that out yet have they.

[ACUDANUT]

Does she look cold?

She looks like she bought those. Fake.

[Kern Dog]

So? THAT is a rockin body. Athletic, tan and sweaty are three of my favorite things in a woman.
My first wife was just sweaty.

[Mike DC]

I should take delivery of my Tesla Cyber Truck in 2022 so I let you know if the advertised claims are true. The higher end model is advertised to have a range in excess of 500 miles. Payload capacity of 3500 lbs. and a towing capacity of 14,000 lbs. and God knows how much torque. A lot. Will have a on board air compressor and 110 volt outlet for power tools. I guess you could get remote enough that the 500 miles range could be a problem. At 500 miles however the ICE vehicle would be in a similar situation if not for the 80 plus years of infrastructure that has been built for it. I hardly see towing as an issue for three electric motors (AKA trains). Sure the range will drop depending on what you tow. But I'm not to impressed with the mileage I get with my Dodge Ram towing either. In fact I'm sick of it which is reason I want to try something different. Mileage on ICE vehicles has not improved in a real way in 40 years. Sure we add overdrives and more gears but that's useless towing and the cost to tow sucks. And after 500 miles of driving in a day 15 to 20 minutes to take a piss and walk a bit does not seem like a big deal to me.

Do you know what the curb weight is on that thing?  I wonder how much battery it has to carry to advertise a 500-mile range.

Offhand guess:  the range will be pretty good when it's unloaded.  With loads/towing the range is liable to drop dramatically.  


As for the "15-20 minutes to take a walk"  - totally agree.   I barely want to go 200 miles between stops, never mind 500.  

[Davtona]

Do you know what the curb weight is on that thing?  I wonder how much battery it has to carry to advertise a 500-mile range.

Offhand guess:  the range will be pretty good when it's unloaded.  With loads/towing the range is liable to drop dramatically.  

As for the "15-20 minutes to take a walk"  - totally agree.   I barely want to go 200 miles between stops, never mind 500.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQ1365fBhVk

Best specs (speculation ) I have seen so far in this video. He says 500 mile tri motor has 168KWH to 200KWH of batteries. It will use the new 46MM x 80MM batteries. Same as what is planned for the Tesla semi. Battery power efficiently as high as 88%. So 88% of the battery power goes to the road and pushes the vehicle. As compared to his Subaru ICE vehicle which has a efficiency of only 23%. Only 23% of your fuel cost actually moves the vehicle. I knew flywheel horsepower vs at the wheel horsepower but I learned something here. I never realized a ICE vehicle was that inefficient in this day and age. In 1940 yes I would believe that but this is 2021. In the video he is saying a weight of 2362KG (5196 lbs.)
Tesla isn't releasing a lot of that info at this point as final production design is not done. I have heard they have reduced the overall size by 3% from the prototype. 

[Mike DC]

              
An old-school light bulb is basically an electric heater that also happens to produce some visible light in the process.  Most of the power goes into the heat.


The same is true for internal combustion.  The process mainly produces heat.  The gas pressure against the pistons is distant second.    

EVs have a significant power draw when they need to heat the passenger cabin.  In fact the OEMs have been looking at heating more of the surfaces people feel (seats, steering wheel, armrests, etc) so they can get away without heating up the air so much.  Whereas with IC engines it's totally different.  They produce so much excess heat that you're doing the system a favor when you run the cabin heater full blast.  

[Davtona]

I actually thought you would have more comments on the weight as that is pretty up in the air. May not be that far off if you do away with a trucks frame, motor, trans and related items then add batteries. I guess we'll find out. Yes damm inefficient system we are using in our current vehicles. I guess I never thought it was that bad though. No wonder mileage sucks. Archaic system we have.

[Davtona]

              
EVs have a significant power draw when they need to heat the passenger cabin.  In fact the OEMs have been looking at heating more of the surfaces people feel (seats, steering wheel, armrests, etc) so they can get away without heating up the air so much.  Whereas with IC engines it's totally different.  They produce so much excess heat that you're doing the system a favor when you run the cabin heater full blast.  

Have to study that more. Ok we are using say 10% of our ICE vehicle's 77% energy loss to heat our car. We are still only at 33% efficiently in cold weather only. Air Conditioning is definitely Not a plus on a ICE vehicle either as it costs mileage. So are heat and cool just a trade off on said vehicle and we are still at 23%? Bottom line nothing is free and I'm sure it affects range on the EV too. But per dollar of energy its not taking as high of a % to do the same thing.

[Mike DC]

           
The guy in the video made valiant efforts to calculate specs, but IMO he's working with too many assumptions to trust it.  The 5100-lb weight figure seems pretty low for carrying a heavy load that far.  And the larger battery cells, how does that actually save a lot of space/weight over smaller ones?  That's not how the physics of round objects work in different scales.    

I'm curious about the weight of the battery pack & motors, specifically.  That is a tip-off about how much the vehicle was compromised to keep the weight manageable.  Tesla is using a different drivetrain than Detroit but they still have to build the rest of the vehicle with the same materials.      


I haven't thought a lot about the whole truck because it all seems kind of gimmicky, to be honest.  Stainless body panels, no perimeter frame, no side mirrors, etc.  IMO it's trying a bit too hard.  

Not to say the Tesla truck cannot work today.  It may work pretty well and satisfy a lot of buyers.

The stainless body panels may be less of a problem today than in the DeLorean era.  Modern vehicles are treated so carefully in general.  And that was before "paintless" dent removal; minor damage wasn't easy to fix.  By the later 1980s some DeLorean owners had actually painted them for various reasons.  

The lack of a perimeter frame won't be a problem in light or moderate usage, assuming the unibody structure is strong/rigid enough (it looks like it will be).  But the vehicle still seems better suited to the SUV market than the pickup truck market IMO.  

[WMopar71]

Don't forget that EV batteries are charged by butterflies and unicorns.

[MoparMike68]

Quote,
There's always a politician with an opposing view.  His take is shorter on facts/evidence but it serves his party donors

Apparently there's one on this forum as well rather then stating the final comment this disclaimer was imposed.

Quote,
Why does buying an EV mean giving up FF cars?  

Why wait do the right thing for the planet the technology is there according to your research, or is it FF vehicles for me
but not for thee or maybe you don't want to give up reliability.

Quote,
Is there a law against owning both?

I'll leave it at that.

[Mike DC]

Quote,
There's always a politician with an opposing view.  His take is shorter on facts/evidence but it serves his party donors

Apparently there's one on this forum as well rather then stating the final comment this disclaimer was imposed.

You introduced Texas blackouts into the conversation.  You basically voiced the right/GOP spin on the situation.  It does not match the facts very well.  

I'm not the one trying to politicize this thread.  I just pushed back.    

Why wait do the right thing for the planet the technology is there according to your research, or is it FF vehicles for me
but not for thee or maybe you don't want to give up reliability.

Is there a law against owning both?

I'll leave it at that.

 
Sorry but I still don't view this as a war between IC and EV.  

Each one has some pros & cons.  EVs are not perfect by any means.  They have mechanical drawbacks.  Batteries are heavy AF for a sports car.  There aren't enough charging stations yet and it takes some time to recharge.  They have new variables & less familiarity for the rescue crews after an accident.  Etc.  

IMO electrics do offer some environmental gains but they tend to get overstated/oversimplified.  A lot depends on how your local powerplant generates the electricity, how much of the car's electric gear gets recycled when it wears out, etc.