A new chapter in the life of an unrestored Hemi Daytona

[taxspeaker]

Ok here is where we are

The heater hoses, although original are so brittle that they are being saved but replaced with repro units.  6BBl is right on the broadcast sheet number being correct usually, but after discussing with both the 1set owner and Christine, noting that both radiator hoses still had the old manufacturer pain in the *** clamps and did not visually appear to have ever been removed, and knowing Chrysler sometimes built something that did not match the broadcast sheet, I think I will reinstall the one that was on it when I got it from Christine. It is not at all brittle, shows no real wear or cracks and may illustrate some assembly line changeover? I really don't want to change anything at all unless required for safety, and since it won't be driven much (once running) I am comfortable with the old hose. The bottom hose is cracked but I have not looked closely yet to see if usable or readable. My overtime days ended yesterday so I hope to get back to shop tomorrow.

Thanks for everyone's comments
Bob

[426HemiChick]

Hi Bob,                       19 December 2020

How does this sound: Tell us which two of the four hoses we have that you want and we'll trade you them for two duplicate Repo's. Did find the heater hose for one of the cars in the same box. It's so brittle it broke into a dozen pieces while in the box.... without any help from us.

If'n you want to do that we'll send them as soon as we finish putting the stuff together we are already planning on sending you. Only have one more item to locate and that's the Yellow Accel coil. Two hoses aren't going to cause any problems.

The only car of the two we may try and return to stock original is the SB. The RR and it's Hemi have too many mods to ever be able to be considered stock/original. It'll make a good toy.

Here is where we need a bit of advice. The 6-PK's engine was disassembled due to the problems created by the shoddy original assembly and shoddy repair by the dealer. We bought new pistons, rings, rods (had the rods bushed for floating pins, lengths matched, shot peened, de-burred, Magnafluxed and balanced). The pistons we bought are forged TRW L2295F (4.320" 12.5 comp) racing pistons, hasting rings, Isky cam package (darn box weighs a ton) and a few other items. All the above was purchased 42+ years back.

If'n we do decide to restore the SB to original, should we not use any of the stuff mentioned above? Probably goes w/o saying to not use this stuff. My thinking is the pistons, rings and rods may possibly be OK if we dial down the compression.

The ISKY cam package is fairly radical and probably wouldn't be a good idea to install it. Here's the info for it: PN: 165080, Grind: B-800 High Block, Lift: .534, Duration: 320°.

Take care.

Best always,

Dena and Christine

[hemi68charger]

That is some serious nick picking. What's next, original air in the tires ? 

It is all in the eyes of the restorer... If someone wants to strive to get things as close to original, well, it is self-serving OCD, to each their own and just because someone wants to do it, cool......  I wish I wasn't so focused on getting things as correct as possible, but alas I am,,,,, within financial reason for my wallet....

[426HemiChick]

here are pics of the current reproductions of the #31 & #45 reproduction lower radiator hoses

 & it looks like the #45 is stamped on the wrong "END"  

Hi 6bblgt,                   21 December 2020

Here are the VIN's for the 68 RR and 69 SB:

RM21J8A266061

WM21M9A261270

Looks like they both went down the Lynch Rd Assembly Line.

Thanks, take care.

Best Always,

426 Hemi Chicks

[wingcarenvy]

Great purchase taxspeaker. I think we all know that you will do it justice. Thanks for sharing.  


And thanks to 426HemiChicks for properly storing the cars so that they can be enjoyed by many in the future.

[426HemiChick]

Great purchase taxspeaker. I think we all know that you will do it justice. Thanks for sharing.  


And thanks to 426HemiChicks for properly storing the cars so that they can be enjoyed by many in the future.

Hi Wingcarenvy,                      21 December 2020

You are quite welcome. We are very thankful Bob adopted our Daytona. We know he loves her and will do everything she needs and deserves. Bob's Hemi Daytona has the best home and family possible; that makes us happy that she is where she rightfully belongs.

Best Always,

Dena and Christine

[taxspeaker]

2 Months after purchase-some updates-Part 1 :

My original goals remain unchanged.
Goal 1: The car will not be restored or repainted or "upgraded". I have not changed and will not change the body or paint. I have not even washed the car.

Goal 2: Clean the old road grime and grease in a non-abrasive manner. Using, so far, 15-20 containers of "Tubs of Towels" (non-abrasive hand cleaners) I have been able to clean most of the grime, grit and grease off the engine, rear end and suspension. It has revealed interesting original axle and transmission stamps, paint overspray from Creative in unexpected areas, and some other unexpected grease pen markings.

Goal 3: Non-original parts (just shocks and exhaust) will be replaced with NOS originals if possible, reproductions as a last choice. Any original part that is questionable or broken will be rebuilt, not replaced.

Goal 4: It will however be driven and to be driven some things must be rebuilt, particularly rubber items and seals and anything safety related. I have a box I am keeping anything that has been replaced and it is a very, very small box!

Goal 5: Document everything. Before I touch anything I have been taking lots of pictures and notes, and at the end of every time I work on it I write down a complete log of what was done, how, and with what. If something has to come off I put it back the exact same way it was before removal.

I had originally hoped to try to start the car by the end of January, but it looks like it will be mid-February now.

On the exterior-nothing has changed except wheels and tires and hubcaps. The rear 2 wheels were 1969 factory originals from their date stamps and markings, and I was able to find 2 more rare 1969 correct Hemi 15x6 wheels. These original 2 wheels have been remounted on the back of the car with actual low-mileage 1969 red stripe F70x15 Goodyear tires. Although 50 years old and in good tread shape, they won't be used if I am driving very fast. I found 4 used original deluxe hubcaps and have them mounted on the rear wheels which are now on the car. The front wheels are not yet back on, but they are also now wearing the correct tires and have the 2 hubcaps in a box awaiting mounting.

After being able to salvage a couple of the original tires off of the old mag wheels that Christine included with the car, and verifying date codes, I have used one of the poor condition ones as a spare on a Coker 15x6 steel wheel-one of the very few parts that was missing. So exterior wise I have bought 1 wheel from Coker for $120 and 4 used hubcaps for an amount I am not proud of-it's hard to find "non-disc" correct ones since most of them say disc brakes on the inner red center-cap moulding.

In the trunk nearly everything was there except the spare and the wingnut holding the spare on. Both jacks, and the bases and special handles were there, plus the wingnut for the jack hold-down clamp-which I had one, so in the trunk I have bought a tire tie-down wingnut, a jack spring and cleaned, cleaned, cleaned to get the original mat acceptable. I still have a pack of 10 1095 GE Bulbs from 1970 and I replaced both burned out ones in the taillamps so that all rear lamps work correctly. (Yes I have hooked up a battery a couple of times). Maybe $20 in total for the trunk not counting the wheel above.

In the interior I pulled the seats and cleaned them, making sure the six-way mechanism was working, and of course, finding the build sheet under the carpet. I replaced the dome lamp bulb and both console bulbs and that's it. I did glue 1 piece of carpet back on the passenger side of the console, and re-mounted the driver kick panel. The radio and horn are not working, and will be checked later. The wipers, turn signals and interior dimmer work fine as does the heater fan. So I did not have to buy anything for the interior (I have a lot of 50 year old bulbs), just lots of cleaning.

In the suspension I have replaced the old, worn-out aftermarket Gabriel Hijackers (that were worn out from age) with some stock looking but lightly used original-looking ones I had in the shop, and will lube the front end. So nothing spent there either. I siphoned out the 50 year old rear differential lube and replaced it with some new lube I also had on the shelf.

The brakes have been a different story. I decided to rebuild all 4 wheel cylinders while on the car because the fluid was gone from the master cylinder and a couple of them were full of some waxy substance. Spent $12 on wheel cylinder rebuild kits. Then we found the brake shoes were all cracked (age or use?) and replaced them as well-another $70. The master cylinder seems fine, so I siphoned out the old brake fluid, refilled it and bench bled it. I got my wife to sit in the car the other night while I tried to bleed the brakes and could not get anything to work. (She now brags she has more seat time in a Hemi Daytona than me). At first I thought it was the distribution block being all clogged up, but I found instead that both front wheel rubber hoses has collapsed as well as the 1 rear one so they were completely blocked. After talking with Mark at Magnum he advised me, as did my wife, to buy some reproduction replacements and save the old ones. I blew out all the steel  lines and have ordered the hoses, grudgingly, because you don't mess with safety. I kept the originals and spent another $54 for rubber lines, which I am waiting on from Inline Tube.

The car has 70 Hemi Cuda carbs on it, which I will pull off in 2 weeks, and I am rebuilding the correct 4619/4621 carbs now.

At the transmission I first has to remove the transmission in the car which was from Christine's Hemi roadrunner, and set it aside for her. I then took the Hemi Daytona's original transmission, which had been sitting on the floor in Christine's garage for 45 years, to A&A transmissions for rebuilding and that is where it now sits. No idea of cost on that yet-probably 2 weeks away still.

In the fuel system, I dropped and cleaned the original fuel tank and then re-installed it, sadly breaking my first original part-1 of the tank J bolts-another $7-it was just rusted too much. I also replaced the cracked rubber fuel hoses at the tank and pump with reproduction rubber, and clamps noting that the original grounding strap (which I reinstalled in the exact same location) is sure a lot longer than the one they give you in the reproduction line kits. The fuel pump was evidently bad, so I had it rebuilt by CrossRam connection and reinstalled it, after also cleaning the vapor separator and blowing out all the lines. I also had him rebuild the original distributor.

We removed the old rusted out headers on the car and discarded them, noting that the intake manifold hot air tubes were still in place though, so I will reuse them. I have a set of Hemi exhaust manifolds from a Hemi Cuda-the passenger side is the correct one but I did have to buy a reproduction driver side one. I think I will try to install them before putting the transmission back in so I can put the choke tubes on at that time too.

[taxspeaker]

Part 2

Many year ago Christine had replaced the original, leaking water pump, but she had kept it and gave it to me, so I had it rebuilt. In examining the hoses, I kept them, but they are just too brittle to safely use, so I replaced all the rubber hoses and thermostat at the same time. I also had Glenn Ray clean and repair the radiator and trans cooler-but not to refinish them. No bill yet on them from Bob at Glenn Ray. We were able to extract the broken alternator mounting bolt from the head, and reinstalled everything original in the cooling system, original fan, new belt and the original alternator and the first big test was then failed. I slowly began to pour anti freeze in the radiator, looking and listening for leaks. About 1 and 1/2 gallons in, when I though I was safe, water started pouring out of the passenger side of the block. Luckily, it was just a rusted through core plug, so I have replaced 2 of the 3 on that side, with the worst one still to come. At least the exhaust manifolds are off. At the same time I did replace the old Champion N10Y plugs with new ones, and the non-original plug wires with reproduction ones.

I will send the original old chrome exhaust tips off this week to get re-chromed, and have ordered a set of reproduction pipes from ECS. They do not have the resonators though and I do not know where to get them.

Finally, I have pre-oiled the engine with the special tool down the intermediate shaft hole-probably way more than necessary, but I figure that's ok.

Awaiting now, brake hoses & bleeding, 1 core plug, exhaust manifolds, carbs and transmission. Then cross fingers and attempt to start. We have filmed much of the stuff and I think my son is going to post a video summary online this week. When I am ready to try and start it we will be filming that day too! There is a running bet amongst our close group of 6 guys on which attempt it will start. We first had to agree on what "start" means and the consensus is it had to run for at least 2 seconds. I am betting and hoping on #5 attempt. A couple of the over-confident young guys are saying first try but what do they know. I am willing to buy dinner if they are right though.

Happy New Year everyone. Will post the video link if he does it.
Bob J

[69_500]

Just to give you a ball park but I had my 727 Hemi trans rebuilt at A&A as well, 3 years ago. Total cost for me at that time was $2,400 from them.

[hemi68charger]

Part 2

..
I will send the original old chrome exhaust tips off this week to get re-chromed, and have ordered a set of reproduction pipes from ECS. They do not have the resonators though and I do not know where to get them.
...

Bob,
I have researched at length the resonators as well for my Hemi PR C500 resto. Right now, Accurate sells resonators, but they do not have the date codes on them, I believe the part number is missing too. It is my understanding ECS is working on the tooling now to get resonators out in the next couple of months.. Gardner sells Resonators as well, but you have to buy their complete system, they won't sell individual components...

I'll call you..

Troy

[73rallye440magnum]

Bob, I admire your commitment to originality, and leaving things alone if possible.

Well done on the wheel cylinders and brake hoses.

Considering the misery of a potential failure, please give additional consideration to rebuilding the master cylinder.

I thought my original was good to go in my Coronet convertible. Like you, I replaced hoses, wheel cylinders. My MC blew a seal as I pulled out of the garage. I got lucky.

[hemi68charger]

...

Considering the misery of a potential failure, please give additional consideration to rebuilding the master cylinder.

...

There are numerous places that can rebuild the original master cylinder to brand new condition and not create the dimple you see on many that have gone through a life-cycle of remanufacturing..... Whitepost is one that comes to mind. There is another one a local friend used that did just as good a job and much cheaper..... I will be rebuilding original wheel cylinders for my rear differential..

[odcics2]

I trusted The Ram Man for the master modifications to get it up to Nichels Engineering specs.  

http://therammaninc.com/

[taxspeaker]

Thanks guys for advice on master cylinder and for the call Troy. I would prefer to rebuild it myself-although my hands don't work real well I still have the ability, so I will look for a rebuilding kit. Greg, I will use Ramman if it looks too bad inside, thanks for the suggestion. No luck on the resonators for now, but ECS should have some in a month or two.
Bob

[odcics2]

He can sleeve it, if required...  

Regarding hoses, clamps: The hardest thing to find is an NOS or NORS hose with the same internal weave, which is visible on the outside.
Part numbers can be removed with acetone.  They can be restamped...    
I'd try want ads for original, rust free original clamps.   
Using anything chemical-wise to remove rust on corbin clamps will cause them to fail at some point!

Is the plan to eventually find either NOS, or mint used parts that can't be restored or used as is?

In this case, because of the pedigree of the car, it would be cool to keep it "repop free".  

[held1823]

are brake hoses the same on a 440 power drum/drum car?

if so, you're welcome to mine if they are usable

[426HemiChick]

Hi Bob,                    04 January 2021

If you can't find a set of original brake hoses and hoses from a 68 Hemi RR with non-power drum brakes will work for you, just say the word and we'll swap with you. The Hemi RR is never going to be original. We'd rather see you get your Daytona as close to 100% original as possible.

Same goes for the Rad hoses. They are soft and pliable. Only have 4405 miles on them. Take your pick of the four we have.

We received good news this evening, the folks accepted our offer for the house we want, after over a year of the sale date pushing out. Finally seeing light a the end of the tunnel; Dena and I should be together again, at home and soon.

Tell Matt we are looking forward to seeing him and his family when we visit you, your family and your crew late spring / early summer.

Hope everyone is healthy, safe and well. You all are in our prayers.

Thanks to everyone for helping Bob with his Daytona; She is special and still means a lot to us and always will. She's probably the only Daytona with a Coyote of her own named Sheba.

Best Always,

Dena and Christine the 426 Hemi Chicks

[Dragon Slayer]

I highly recommend the brake warehouse in MN if it needs a sleeve, and or rebuild.

[Mopar John]

Bob,
Keep all the original parts!
You never know when someone will come up with a way to reuse them?
Not long ago I saw an ad for a power steering hose that someone reused the original ends on a different hose!
MJ

[taxspeaker]

Thanks for all the advice guys. The plan is to avoid any and all repops over the long run. Until I am able to find some of those few old needed NOS parts-essentially hoses-I am keeping everything that was removed (right now hoses and brake shoes & spark plugs) and putting on new repop replacements, again with record-keeping notes. Right now it is simply heater/radiator hoses and brake hoses and the 1 gas tank J bolt. I have a couple of inquiries out on the brake hoses. Again, Christine and Ernie thanks for the offers-I have gotten the brake hoses I have "reamed out" but don't feel safe using them and don't want to put used ones on.

Greg, I was not familiar with the acetone thing, but not sure where I would use that anyway on the repops-The search is on for new, old-stock heater hoses, radiator hoses and brake hoses. I did keep and reuse the old Corbin clamps, and have a bunch laying around that I used back in the day so finding ugly, beat-up, crusty clamps has not been a problem-kind of fits the owner too.

Mark (mytur) thanks for the master cylinder advice too-I will rebuild it myself next weekend, hoping for no need of re-sleeving.

Bob

[hemi68charger]

Hey Bob...

I was reflecting back on 69hemidaytona's thread on his car and remember seeing this picture of the modification Creative did to his Daytona's latch tray.. I was curious on what Creative did with your car....

[Sgt Superbird]

And it's said that today's workers don't care anymore about anyone or anything. It looks like that work ethic started eons ago. (Yes, I get that they were "under the gun" to pump out both winged cars, but...)

I'm amazed at the crudeness of these "special" cars. What a cool piece of auto history, though. Thanks for posting all the uniqueness associated with these awesome winged cars.

[taxspeaker]

Troy
The nose is off the car and under wraps right now locked away in the shop office so i cannot get pictures easily. Now if you want pictures of radiator support, nose support, inner front fenders I have the rare opportunity to get them!
Bob

[hemi68charger]

Troy
The nose is off the car and under wraps right now locked away in the shop office so i cannot get pictures easily. Now if you want pictures of radiator support, nose support, inner front fenders I have the rare opportunity to get them!
Bob

I was curious how they did the tranny cooling line routing on your car compared to 69hemidaytona's Hemi Daytona, did that cut a hols in the latch tray like his.....

[FJMG]

I too am curious as I have not seen the "notch" like in 69hemidaytona's car, but I have seen the latch tray bent up to clear over the cooler line. What I am also interested in is how much the welded sheet metal latch support (the one welded to upper road yoke) is actually welded. The pic on first page of this thread seems to indicate that this car not welded on drivers side (no bolt either  but pic is only shows a few inches of this piece). As most know this piece is welded from underneath but since the cooler is in the way, many of the hemi auto daytonas were only welded up from the bottom on the passenger half of the yoke and untouched above cooler, except for a couple cars that I have seen where it is vertically bolted to yoke on drivers side (black hemi auto in Alberta and the car at BJ's showroom in Phoenix come to mind). If you remember on 69hemidaytona's car it is welded on top on the drivers side above the cooler (not sure if creative did that or dealer or even if there was changeover during run of the 34ish hemi-autos ) definitely a hemi-auto "head-scratcher" on these wing cars.