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Resale/decide between STOCK for the collector or doing MODS for a better car?

Started by 69B5, December 02, 2018, 02:40:58 AM

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69B5

With these cars getting kinda pricey, question

My car is a 1969 Dodge Charger RT 440 4 speed. I had already posted where I was lied to and bought this car for too much $$$$ thanks to the con man I was suckered by

While part of me is still torn if this car is better off in the hands of someone with more time and funds then me that can restore it to what I thought I was buying (and I have even thought about trying to trade it for some "lesser" model or version mopar, but more restored) , it looks like I will start work on it, but I have some questions if people know the market of these cars

Maybe a vintage car dealer can chime in here, if they even go to these forums....

so my car...

PROs: Already stated, the title, dash board vin and trunk vin all match and confirm
I was told the radiator support also has the number, but there is like a factory type sticker over it
In my title....
XS (means "special" which is RT or 500)
L (means 440 4 barrel)
...it has a 4 speed and the big Dana rear


CONS
No fender tag number (lost in the re paint)
Build sheet piece corner bits were found, but so chewed up, told just thrown away (the punch line: no build sheet either)
I am assuming motor is correct era 440, but not numbers matching. And, it has on it a high rise, edlebrock, and headers, and maybe (?) a mild 30 over cam

So my friend says since I was already 'raped' buying this sight un seen, and over paid, to go STOCK AND stock only and not make things worse if I need to sell later

BUT
...... since it doesn't have the fender tag, build sheet, motor (odds are), and the motor is already changed some,  is there any reason not to convert to disc brakes, better control arms, electric headlight cover motors since all the vacum stuff is gone anyways, etc? Or am I still damm lucky to have a "real" RT would I wind up just making another major mistake right after the ones I already had?

For example, if I do the disc brakes then my factory Magnum 500 wheels no longer would fit, as most say you need 15" or larger wheels for there kits. Where is fine, I love larger wheels and want them anyways but am I basically making the car more or more devalued? Or am I far enough away from stock, it just doesn't matter anymore?

thanks


Mopar Nut

Install the disc's, upgrade the wiring, I did on mine and it's number matching. I have 15" magnums with Baer disc brakes on all four. I have a Borgeson power steering box that will be going in soon. I just bought a Strange S60 rear end I will be replacing the 8-3/4 in a month. Keep all the original parts though.

Build it the way you want, don't worry about resale value unless you are planning on selling.

Let's see that baby or link where pictures are posted.
"Dear God, my prayer for 2024 is a fat bank account and a thin body. Please don't mix these up like you did the last ten years."


Mopar Nut

Nice looking from the pictures.
"Dear God, my prayer for 2024 is a fat bank account and a thin body. Please don't mix these up like you did the last ten years."

Y1CHARGER

It Looks to me that you didn't get robbed too bad if you stop and see what other cars are selling for and what a project RT 4sp goes for.  As long as the Body and Paint are driver quality, and it seems to be a pretty solid car with an original trunk floor in it (little pitted but not rotted and full of bondo) and still has a Dana in it.  So a few thousand $$ to get all the bugs worked out ant It will be a decent Car.  I think as you see other cars sell you will become more content with your purchase.

Kern Dog


XH29N0G

What everyone else has already said is what I would recommend. 

The eventual prospective buyers will all have their own preferences, but having something that is nicely done and enjoyable for you will tick the boxes for someone else. You will be fortunate to break even on a "restore/upgrade and resell" unless you really know the business.  Most here, including me, have put more in than we will get by selling.  But no regrets.  My other car is much less fun to drive and work on. I consider my mechanical changes as 'upgrades' and they have made it even more fun.

If you decide to 'greatly improve the body lines' ......  do that for yourself ...... but finding the buyer might be more difficult.
Who in their right mind would say

"The science should not stand in the way of this."? 

Science is just observation and hypothesis.  Policy stands in the way.........

Or maybe it protects us. 

I suppose it depends on the specific case.....

garner7555

Things have been changing the past few years.  We are seeing the resto-mod cars bringing more money at the auction than they use to.  You are not going to get a good return on investment in either senerio most likely.  I would put the brakes, upgraded sway bars and torsion bars, better steering gear box (Borgeson box), and better upper control arms (adjustable) and you will really appreciate how much better it drives.

Not that what I do should influence you, but I am running 14" Brembo front brakes with 12" rear disc, QA1 and Hotchkis suspension, Borgeson steering, and big sway bars.  I am puttting 18" Torque Thrust M wheels with Michelin Pilot Sport tires.  I'm finishing it up this winter and can't wait to see how well it handles and stops!
69 Charger 440 resto-mod

alfaitalia

Yeah....its your car do it for yourself....unless you are planning to flip it then just do the absolute minimum so you can sell it, responsibly, as a safe car.

I'm all for the resto mod....but keeping the body stock as possible......paint aside.....im painting my bumpers body colour....but that's more because I cant get decent bumpers over here at sensible money and mine are pitted....but also I like the look. Each to their own.

Most factory restos on here are far from that to be honest....they are far TOO GOOD and nothing left the factory as well finished or painted with such even gaps as most of the "factory " restos on here. Where are the paint runs, the poor panel gaps and the overspray!! I don't thing anyone has ever don't a true proper resto....who would want to? That's why proper unpainted Survivors are going up in value....and down again as soon as they are painted!!!


So if you are going to paint and restore it then you might as well go for it.....after all it was effectively a "not origimal" and " modified car" the moment the car was repainted or whatever!!! I like to think I'm making mine how it would be if they still made them today with the same body....you know, more power, better brakes, better lights, modern wheels and tyres, suspension that enables them to handle like a modern American car (or a mid ninety European car....lol), seats that hold you in place etc etc.

So whatever you do to it, do it for you not what you think the next owner might like. :2thumbs:.....you certainly have a far better starting point than many of us....myself included!!
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you !!

Daytona R/T SE

Put it on Ebay the way it is.

What ever you do to it, any potential next owner will have a different idea of how it should be.

Any changes you make at this point would just be a guessing game.

Set a reserve that you can live with.

Cash out.

Move on.

Alaskan_TA

Is there anything preventing you from driving & enjoying it as it is?

Driving them is the ultimate return on any classic car 'investment'.

69CoronetRT

Quote from: Kern Dog on December 02, 2018, 03:47:03 AM
Why not keep it and modify it the way you want?   :2thumbs:

Because that leads to "look what this dumb ass did" threads.

People are encouraged to do what they want, then ridiculed for doing it.
Seeking information on '69 St. Louis plant VINs, SPDs and VONs. Buld sheets and tag pictures appreciated. Over 3,000 on file thanks to people like you.

odcics2

Quote from: 69CoronetRT on December 02, 2018, 10:31:49 AM
Quote from: Kern Dog on December 02, 2018, 03:47:03 AM
Why not keep it and modify it the way you want?   :2thumbs:

Because that leads to "look what this dumb ass did" threads.

People are encouraged to do what they want, then ridiculed for doing it.

I don't care what folks say about what I do...     :Twocents:
I've never owned anything but a MoPar. Can you say that?

BrianShaughnessy

Nice looking car.   :cheers:  Needs TLC like you said.

Paint looks good.   If you want to get the $$$$$ you're asking then you should have it detailed and take new pics.   You're gonna have to spend a few $ to make the big $.

Biggest turnoff from the outside for me is the Welds but I'm more into resto-mods with 17's now.    Unless you're going all stock - then go with the magnums.

The big bux stock builds all have # matching motor, the paperwork and tags to go with it.   Frankly I think it'd be easier staying resto-mod  :Twocents:


Good luck whatever path you choose!     

Black Betty:  1969 Charger R/T - X9 440 six pack, TKO600 5 speed, 3.73 Dana 60.
Sinnamon:  1969 Charger R/T - T5 440, 727, 3.23 8 3/4 high school sweetheart.

JR

You're already past the point of getting a strong return on this car.

How long do you plan to keep it? What do you want to use it for?

Do you just want to putt around to car shows cruising at 55, or actually drive it? Because a stock Charger in reality drives like garbage. (Expect protests to that sentence in 3,2,1..)
There's no harm in doing bolt in modifications that improve the drivability and reliability of the car. You can do several improvements that bolt right on, and improve the car. Bolt ons can always be changed back in the future if you're worried about that.

Also, a car being absolutely original only seems to matter if the car is a survivor, or concourse restored. Your car appears to have a "nice driver" quality restoration done, so mechanical upgrades realistically can't hurt the value much.

I would do bolt on mods and not think twice if it were me. The car is so much more enjoyable for it.
70 Charger RT top bananna /68 Charger RT triple green

Moparpoolman

  How good is the Body & Paint?, it looks pretty good and solid in the pictures. Did you get the "Blue Plate": with it, cool if you did.   Any bolt on upgrades won't hurt the value and if anything add to the value making it more fun drive.  If you have to pay someone to do the work, then just have the bigger jobs like front suspension done professionally and save the small things to do yourself.  This care doesn't look like a money pit to me.  This site is a great place to get help when it comes to fixing things. 
  I can almost predict that you could possibly sell this car at a possible loss or break even only to spend more on a car that you "Think" is a better car only to find out latter that your new car has issues and you should of just kept this one. Either way welcome to the Charger world and hope everything works out for you.   :cheers:

XS29L9Bxxxxxx

I read your other thread and it's sad how you got ripped.

As I understand, it's a NON-matching engine, now with no fender tag. And you paid how much? Not piling on, but...  :Two cents:
So drive it the way it is and hope you get some enjoyment from the car. Maybe in time, the value will go up, otherwise, you got the use from the car.


green69rt

If you decide to swap things out as a restomod, save everything you take off the car.  Don't throw anything away.  Some future owner, or even you, may want to try to do a full restoration some time in the future and the old parts  will be available.

Lennard

Quote from: odcics2 on December 02, 2018, 10:35:42 AM
Quote from: 69CoronetRT on December 02, 2018, 10:31:49 AM
Quote from: Kern Dog on December 02, 2018, 03:47:03 AM
Why not keep it and modify it the way you want?   :2thumbs:

Because that leads to "look what this dumb ass did" threads.

People are encouraged to do what they want, then ridiculed for doing it.

I don't care what folks say about what I do...     :Twocents:

Agreed :2thumbs:

WHITE AND RED 69

No fender tag, no buildsheet, and wrong year motor means build it how you want. You'll never be able to prove the originality of the car without those so don't think you can sell the car as numbers matching. Nowadays the big money is in survivor cars.

If you sell as is your going to take a huge loss. Put $2,000-$3,000 in suspension/brakes and another couple $2,000 in wiring and fixing small issues and enjoy the car.

1969 Dodge Charger R/T
2016 Jeep Grand Cherokee 75th edition
1999 Jeep Grand Cherokee
1972 Plymouth Duster

Alaskan_TA

There is another side to the 'no tag or broadcast sheet' idea.

A guy bought a rather unusual '69 like that & built it his way since there was no documentation

Later, a prior owner of the car gave me a broadcast sheet for it, so I listed it on HH as available to claim.

A few more years pass & the guy checks the site for his VIN & contacts me.

He provides proof of legal ownership, so I send him the broadcast sheet.

Not even a 'thank you' comes back to me, I had to check the tracking number to make sure it got there & it had.

A couple more years go by & another guy introduces himself then mentions his pal by name had claimed a broadcast sheet from me.

I mentioned that I had not heard back from him after he got it & that seemed odd to me?

It turned out that his pal, with no documentation had built it 'his way' & he was disappointed in himself & his decision after a broadcast sheet for it surfaced.

If he had known how it was delivered, he would not have considered doing it any other way.

cdr

Quote from: Alaskan_TA on December 02, 2018, 04:15:51 PM
There is another side to the 'no tag or broadcast sheet' idea.

A guy bought a rather unusual '69 like that & built it his way since there was no documentation

Later, a prior owner of the car gave me a broadcast sheet for it, so I listed it on HH as available to claim.

A few more years pass & the guy checks the site for his VIN & contacts me.

He provides proof of legal ownership, so I send him the broadcast sheet.

Not even a 'thank you' comes back to me, I had to check the tracking number to make sure it got there & it had.

A couple more years go by & another guy introduces himself then mentions his pal by name had claimed a broadcast sheet from me.

I mentioned that I had not heard back from him after he got it & that seemed odd to me?

It turned out that his pal, with no documentation had built it 'his way' & he was disappointed in himself & his decision after a broadcast sheet for it surfaced.

If he had known how it was delivered, he would not have considered doing it any other way.

I will thank you for what you do for our car interest, hobby.
LINK TO MY STORY http://www.onallcylinders.com/2015/11/16/ride-shares-charlie-keel-battles-cancer-ms-to-build-brilliant-1968-dodge-charger/  
                                                                                           
68 Charger 512 cid,9.7to1,Hilborn EFI,Home ported 440 source heads,small hyd roller cam,COLD A/C ,,a518 trans,Dana 60 ,4.10 gear,10.93 et,4100lbs on street tires full exhaust daily driver
Charger55 by Charlie Keel, on Flickr

69B5

First off, thank you to everyone that has replied. Your opinions as Charger owners is priceless to me

I hope, in time, I can give back some how as well ....but I am new to all this

Keep in mind, that I do love the car. Even not being able to drive it now safely (plus it's winter here), my father worked for Chrysler and we had classics like the Dart, Valiant, Newport, 300, Volare' ....all through the mid 60's to mid 70's. This Charger (or a Cuda') is what I always hoped as a kid my dad would buy but as a family guy, but of course, he didn't

My questions about the money in this isn't strictly about investment, because I didn't buy it to try to get a "screaming deal" on it, or flip it, or anything like that. I bought it because I wanted a daily driver, maybe not perfect now but drive able NOW for 2 reasons

1) I am a busy person, and knew I would not have the time to really putz with the car much
and
2) The car was a lot of money (based om my standards) , and I know after paying as much as I did for it, I wouldn't have much of anything left to get it done by someone else. I mean maybe it's irrelevant, but the price is approaching 2nd hand SRT Hellcat

So while it was really disappointing as he was a liar it really is a 10 footer paint job (filler....mostly over dents and such) , I could deal with that, even though it crushed me he lied about the "10k flawless paint" .

It is because I DO in fact want to get all these fantastic suggestions done but I need to be cautious, I only have so much money to work with. If I make a major mistake by even spending more in it, but at the same time the whole while I am devaluing the car even more, I just added more insult to my injury

The truth is I DO want to improve the suspension and brakes, upgrade them, and go 17" rims, I am ALL about it

It is just since I don't have a lot of money stashed away elsewhere and I get hurt, had some loss of business (I am self employed, to a fault) and I am FORCED to sell it, I just wanted to see if the I am making a mistake drifting away from stock

I thought even IF I didn't have the fender tag or broadcast speak, a true R/T 4 speed might still be a little special. But maybe not

At this point, I have pictures of the numbers on the 440, but I still don't know how to be sure it's NOT numbers matching. But I doubt it is

Thanks for everyone's time





birdsandbees

Did you ever crawl under it and get those VIN #'s off the trans and engine pads that I pointed you to?
1970 'Bird RM23UOA170163
1969 'Bee WM21H9A230241
1969 Dart Swinger LM23P9B190885
1967 Plymouth Barracuda Formula S
1966 Plymouth Satellite HP2 - 9941 original miles
1964 Dodge 440 62422504487

Y1CHARGER

All the things that you say you were lied to about, were they over the phone or through EBAY email?  If they were through ebay, ebay has a buyer protection which I think is up to $50K.  You should contact EBAY and see if they would return it for you if that's what you really want.  
On the other hand, Yes a real RT 4SPD even though no fender tag is still more valuable than a non-RT.  Also I would much rather have a non matching Engine and Trans original body panel car than a matching numbers car that has was all rusted and now wears a bunch of aftermarket sheet metal parts, just not the same.  But the best thing for you is to do what's going to make you happy.
I hope you don't mind but here's the other thread with the Ebay link so everyone can see what you are talking about also.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,134179.msg1664340.html#msg1664340