Holley Terminator Stealth EFI - Install Questions

[TexasStroker]

I don't know of anyone that has installed this kit, but I am hoping some of you might have general experience, or insights from Sniper installs (I assume they'd be quite similar overall).  If you need the background on the situation, feel free...otherwise, you can skip to the questions.  If anyone is interested, I can try and document the install...free time seems to be my biggest issue at the moment.  I'm thinking I'll test this out on the Duster, re-wire the Charger (picked up an American Auto Wire Kit after years of going back-and-forth), and then hopefully either buy another Terminator Stealth kit, or be giving something else a whirl with the Charger.  Sorry if the post is scattered, I started writing it during lunch (which got interrupted 4-5 times) and am just now wrapping it up...Thanks in advance for any insights!

Background:

So...after researching things over a few years, I finally hit a breaking point with carbs and the current pump gas.  I went from having no issues to constant trouble with the advent of ethanol entering the gas.  Sludge in filters (nice Russell units you can service and replace the element) led me to pick up a Trick Flow canister.  A few months ago I found a free Sunday afternoon and mounted it to the frame, plumbed it, and as I planned to leak test it before cruising I found my current electric pump was unable to pull the fuel thru the unit.  Keep in mind, this is a new aluminum fuel cell, sumped, and flowing downhill.  That is when I decided to make a change...I got sick of never being able to just drive and enjoy the cars due to issues like this.

Pre-Purchase:

I'd been monitoring EFI threads across the web for awhile and although I hadn't seen anyone install the Terminator Stealth I liked the aesthetics and engineering and decided to pull the trigger.  I'd seen several people go with the Sniper kit and tout it, particularly over FiTech who I kept seeing more and more issues with...Wanting a little reassurance I decided to ask some pre-purchase questions to Holley.  That e-mail was sent in May and I've yet to hear back.  All the older guys I pitched it to always touted how great Holley's tech line was.  Well, one day at lunch I called in...45 minutes later someone answered, but he was a carb guy and not an EFI guy.  He put me on hold, said no one in EFI was free, and he'd take my number and have them call me back.  That never happened either.  Maybe I call at bad times, maybe the positive reviews of their tech line came before they bought out half of the aftermarket companies, I don't know.  All I know is I can't really rely on them for answers and am looking for some insights.

Terminator On-Site:

After a really long wait from the vendor, I got the kit and have gone over it.  The "shiny" finish isn't really up to snuff, but I was impressed with the wiring side.

Questions:

My first questions, prior to starting the install are as follows:

-1: Fuel Pressure Regulator
I got the kit which included the Billet Pressure Regulator.  Does anyone know if the handheld unit will actually show Fuel Pressure?  There was no mention of the factory dialing it in to the specified PSI setting and with no gauge, I can't really confirm it.  No gauge, or transducer is included, so I'm at a loss without making another purchase.  Assuming the handheld shows the pressure, I can adjust on the fly.

-2: Return Line (Fuel Cell)
Obviously, I will have to run a return line, but with this being a fuel cell, I'm not quite sure where to route it.  I asked the "carb" guy at Holley, and he thought that one of the top vents would probably work, but wasn't 100% sure.  So, if anyone has experience I would appreciate it.  Basically there are 2 outlets on the sump (one is currently supplying fuel and the other is capped), and there are 2 at the top (one is a dedicated vent and I think I either capped, or put a rollover valve on the other (it has been awhile).  I was always under the impression to the 2 outlets on the sump were for high volume applications (ie full on race car), but have seen a few instances where people say one can function as a return.  Whether the sump, or vent is the best option I do not know...I'm leaning towards the sump as it would be constantly submerged.

-3: Dual Sync Distributor
Has anyone switched to the Dual Sync distributor?  Is there much of a gain/benefit to be had?  Currently both cars have Chrysler Electronic ignitions.

My plan for now is to install this kit onto the Duster (408/727) and see how I like it.  If it performs up to snuff, I'll likely come back with one for the Charger (or go a different route).

Thanks again for any advice...if all goes well I might have a little free time this weekend to get things rolling.

[cdr]

dual sync dist is for port [ sequential EFI ] so no it wont work for you.
the return could go on a extra vent or the other one next to the outlet, just make sure there is no check valve in there.
on reading FP on the handheld I do not know, the MSD one does

[TexasStroker]

Cool, thanks...I am thinking I'll run the return line to the sump.

I will try to find some videos tonight of the gauge layout to see if Fuel Pressure is integrated.

[cdr]

Cool, thanks...I am thinking I'll run the return line to the sump.

I will try to find some videos tonight of the gauge layout to see if Fuel Pressure is integrated.

I would bet it can read from Handheld

[TexasStroker]

I am certainly hoping so...seems it would be a crucial parameter for proper function.  Reading thru and seeing you have to buy a transducer made me wonder if that was for simply monitoring, or data logging etc.

[68CoronetRT]

I'd use the top 2nd vent line for the return, dumps at the top to refill the cell.

I'm running Holley's Dual Sync Dist, with MSD ignition and the Sniper kit. It works great! And doubles as a cam sensor in the event you go full on sequential EFI. For my purpose and probably yours, your only going to use the crank sensor part of it. My only comment on it as far as how my car ran after the install, was the exhaust note got ALOT crisper, and it's nice being able to dial in your timing exactly and KNOW your curve/idle blah blah blah, plus you can go into the laptop and change all that! Only needed if you plan on running timing control. If your current timing curve and dist/ignition work good for you then dont bother spending the 450$. I'm working towards running N2o, so I wanted the computer to control everything.

The fuel pressure is not monitored in the computer, at least you cannot access it. Factory preset for the Sniper is 60 PSI. I threw on a mechanical gauge real quick to make sure I was at 60, which it was. The Terminator might be different but I kinda doubt it.

PM me if you have any questions!

[WHITE AND RED 69]

The fuel pressure is not monitored in the computer, at least you cannot access it. Factory preset for the Sniper is 60 PSI. I threw on a mechanical gauge real quick to make sure I was at 60, which it was. The Terminator might be different but I kinda doubt it.

The Terminator unit is not internally regulated like the sniper but the harness comes with a plug that goes to the transducer (not included in the kit  ) so you can view it on the handheld. I had a separate one from my old auto meter gauge and the holley plug went right in.

Whats wrong with the finish? Mine looked pretty good right out of the box.

[TexasStroker]

I'd use the top 2nd vent line for the return, dumps at the top to refill the cell.

I'm running Holley's Dual Sync Dist, with MSD ignition and the Sniper kit. It works great! And doubles as a cam sensor in the event you go full on sequential EFI. For my purpose and probably yours, your only going to use the crank sensor part of it. My only comment on it as far as how my car ran after the install, was the exhaust note got ALOT crisper, and it's nice being able to dial in your timing exactly and KNOW your curve/idle blah blah blah, plus you can go into the laptop and change all that! Only needed if you plan on running timing control. If your current timing curve and dist/ignition work good for you then dont bother spending the 450$. I'm working towards running N2o, so I wanted the computer to control everything.

The fuel pressure is not monitored in the computer, at least you cannot access it. Factory preset for the Sniper is 60 PSI. I threw on a mechanical gauge real quick to make sure I was at 60, which it was. The Terminator might be different but I kinda doubt it.

PM me if you have any questions!

Nice, thanks for the feedback!  My original plan (many moons ago) was to go FiTech...I'm glad I waited as I saw several folks, yourself included, wind up with less than satisfactory experiences.  Given that I'm kind of using the Duster as a guinea pig, I might hold off on the Dual Sync setup and then look into it moving forward...see also the Charger, lol.  I found a thread on a chevelle forum (google search) where someone had the same question about a return line to a fuel cell...results were mixed.  There is a Summit video where the diagram actually shows the return line running to the sump.  I'm sure both options will work, but I can see drawbacks to each...The top vent could cause aeration and the sump seems like it might swirl given the pump would be drawing from the outlet just inches away.

The fuel pressure is not monitored in the computer, at least you cannot access it. Factory preset for the Sniper is 60 PSI. I threw on a mechanical gauge real quick to make sure I was at 60, which it was. The Terminator might be different but I kinda doubt it.

The Terminator unit is not internally regulated like the sniper but the harness comes with a plug that goes to the transducer (not included in the kit  ) so you can view it on the handheld. I had a separate one from my old auto meter gauge and the holley plug went right in.

Whats wrong with the finish? Mine looked pretty good right out of the box.

That is kind of what I was afraid of...You would think at the price point it would be included, at least in the kit.  I might spin a gauge on for now, but would definitely like to add the transducer down the road so I can keep tabs on the fuel pressure while driving.  At least you had one on the shelf, I'll have to shell out another $120

I was expecting more of a polished finish...I will admit it is "shiny," but it isn't quite what I had envisioned.  There are a few spots on the fuel bowl that are a little lackluster and look like the finish has flaked.  Overall I'm okay with it...if I wind up liking this and going back with another unit for the Charger it will be hardcore grey.  For what it is worth I have a friend with a 73 Charger who might spring for the gold dichromate finish if she likes how this works on the Duster.  Would be nice to have real world pics of the three throttle bodies side-by-side.

Do you have yours up and running yet?  Glad to know someone else went this route.

Thanks again for all the feedback.

[cdr]

You do not need the dual sync dist for timing control.

[68CoronetRT]

You do not need the dual sync dist for timing control.

You do if you want the computer to 100% control timing.

You can supposedly get away with a magnetic pickup style, but in my experience with 3 different dizzy, I couldn't get it to work.

Like I said, you can still use the traditional dist, ignition etc... But then your fancy expensive EFI is just being used for fuel only, which also works very very well! I've done both!

[cdr]

You do not need the dual sync dist for timing control.

You do if you want the computer to 100% control timing.

You can supposedly get away with a magnetic pickup style, but in my experience with 3 different dizzy, I couldn't get it to work.

Like I said, you can still use the traditional dist, ignition etc... But then your fancy expensive EFI is just being used for fuel only, which also works very very well! I've done both!

I am not going to argue with you,, GM Ford Chrysler & every other car has done it for many years without a dual sync dist.

[68CoronetRT]

You do not need the dual sync dist for timing control.

You do if you want the computer to 100% control timing.

You can supposedly get away with a magnetic pickup style, but in my experience with 3 different dizzy, I couldn't get it to work.

Like I said, you can still use the traditional dist, ignition etc... But then your fancy expensive EFI is just being used for fuel only, which also works very very well! I've done both!

I am not going to argue with you,, GM Ford Chrysler & every other car has done it for many years without a dual sync dist.

What examples are you referring to?

A Holley Dual Sync is a Hall Effect sensor. The same sensor used in every modern day car for cam/crank trigger. It's just built inside a distributor housing instead of a crank trigger wheel.

I'm just curious how you can control timing without said sensor(s)? I thought there is really only 2 ways. Weights/springs and a Hall Effect Sensor?

[TexasStroker]

The one question that the Holley Tech Line "carb" guy put down 100% was when I asked if they recommended going with Dual Sync and his answer, unlike the return line to the fuel cell, was 100% absolutely yes.

That said, I think for the initial run I will stick with my OE setup and see how it works...The $450 and associated costs will be easier to swallow on down the line when I can be content running EFI.

[cdr]

throttle body fuel injection is NOTHING but an electronic carburetor, there is NOTHING to sync, sequential efi firing of injectors needs to know # 1 compression stroke thus, a sync [camshaft sensor], computer controlled ign timing does not need the sync signal on a distributor type ignition . a crank sensor fired ign needs cam & crank to know # 1 compression location.

[68CoronetRT]

So your saying he cant use this Dual Sync dist for timing control? You are correct about the sequential part, but you also can use the dual sync as a "single sync", if you will.

I dont get why you think you cant use it? If that was the case then MY car would not be running currently.

[cdr]

So your saying he cant use this Dual Sync dist for timing control? You are correct about the sequential part, but you also can use the dual sync as a "single sync", if you will.

I dont get why you think you cant use it? If that was the case then MY car would not be running currently.

I did not say it can't be used, it is just not needed with Tbody injection.

[68CoronetRT]

dual sync dist is for port [ sequential EFI ] so no it wont work for you.

Uhh?

[cdr]

dual sync dist is for port [ sequential EFI ] so no it wont work for you.

Uhh?

I just looked at the instructions for the Terminator stealth & there is no wiring on the unit to hook up a dual sync dist.

[68CoronetRT]

Page 14 on the instructions refer to a TFI distributor with a Ford connector. Same wiring as the Dual Sync. Same adapter even. Page 15 if your using an MSD.

FYI: Holley EFI now sells their own Dual Sync Hall-Effect distributors (LINK).
They're a small cap design, "plug & play" with Holley EFI, and no need for a modified Firing Order.
The crank & cam sensor signals also provide sequential injection capability (MPFI applications).
It's "plug & play" (into the 10-pin ignition connector on the EFI Main Harness) and requires a CD
ignition box (Instructions). The MSD 6201 Digital 6A CDI box & 8253 HVC-2 coil are a great match.
The MSD CD ignition box is wired as shown in the Holley EFI Wiring Manual:
http://documents.holley.com/techlibr...10555rev17.pdf (Holley EFI Wiring Manual - Figure 11, Page 20)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AM7r-DauCak (Holley EFI Dual Sync Distributor - YouTube Tech Video)
A blank cap (LINK) is available, if the user decides to convert to Coil-Near-Plug/DIS later (no CDI box).
Of course, this component can also be used as a crank and/or cam sync/oil pump drive unit.

The Custom Ignition Parameters (in System Parameters) for the Holley EFI Dual Sync Distributor:
Ignition Type ............. ― "Custom"
Crank Sensor Type ..... ― "1 Pulse/Fire"
Sensor Type .............. ― "Digital Falling"
Inductive Delay .......... ― "100.0 usec" (← Synchronization info, adjusted per application.)
Ignition Reference Angle ― "50°" (← Inherent rotor-phasing of this unit.)
Cam Sensor Type ........ ― "Single Pulse" (← "Not Used" for TBI, unless CNP ignition.)
Sensor Type .............. ― "Digital Falling"
Output Setup Type ..... ― "Points Output" (← CDI box ground trigger.)
Dwell Time ................. ― "2.0 msec" (← Do not set this to 1.5 msec!)

[68CoronetRT]

dual sync dist is for port [ sequential EFI ] so no it wont work for you.

Uhh?

I just looked at the instructions for the Terminator stealth & there is no wiring on the unit to hook up a dual sync dist.

You are splitting hairs asshole

All I'm saying is that your original statement where you said you "cant" was wrong. It can be used for Multi port or TBI.

[PRH]

The one question that the Holley Tech Line "carb" guy put down 100% was when I asked if they recommended going with Dual Sync and his answer, unlike the return line to the fuel cell, was 100% absolutely yes.

The Custom Ignition Parameters (in System Parameters) for the Holley EFI Dual Sync Distributor:

Cam Sensor Type ........ ― "Single Pulse" (← "Not Used" for TBI, unless CNP ignition.)

I guess my question to the Holley tech guy would be, why do I definitely need the dual sync when only one will be used with that system?

[68CoronetRT]

Cam sensor part of the Dual Sync is only used for multi port.

Again, you can use a mag style pickup dist (Firecore/MSD etc..). I tried 3 different dizzy's and had zero luck(Even an adjustable rotor for phasing properly). Dual Sync fired right up. Need to look past the 2 sensor part and look at it as a Hall Effect sensor that bolts in place of the distributor, vs using a trigger wheel and a bunch of fab work and pulley alignment etc.

It's really the only one on the market. FAST used to have them, but Holley owns FAST now.

[PRH]

It's really the only one on the market. FAST used to have them, but Holley owns FAST now.

As near as I can tell, FAST is still part of the Comp Performance Group(Comp Cams).

[TexasStroker]

Update is pretty much non-existent...wound up having to work Saturday.

Years ago I ran into an issue where no one would pass the car without tailpipes...had a guy weld them on, but he did a really nice hanger on the frame rail.  Long story short, for me to drop the exhaust and get it out from under the car to weld the O2 bung in, I will have to cut those...which sucks.  Similarly, mounting the fuel pump and filters along the rail as planned will be a complete pain...honestly, not sure there is space to do so.

Went ahead and moved on to the coolant temp. sensor and found that the "kit" did not include bushings so the 3/8" NPT sensor is left with a 1/4" NPT hole.  I'm kind of shocked they didn't include bushings...you'd think at the price point and given that all the gauges supply several it would be a no-brainer....must be a gm thing.

I did pull the plugs, shoot some TF down the holes, and drained the fuel cell.  At this point, it is looking like it would be much, much easier to just throw the kit on the Charger...beautiful frame rail and tons of space, lol.  I will see if I can get some time this week on it...looking like another late night at work right now.

[Derwud]

As long as you have a distributor and and aren't doing Direct Port Injection, you don't need a Dual Sync. Now it might make set up easier due rotor phasing set-up, but not needed.. The coil only needs to know when to fire, the distributor handles the rest...