Choosing an engine to build

[Paul G]

I am getting ready to attempt my first engine build. I want to get in the >500 HP range. Challenger 340 has a recipe to do this on this site. Most likely that is what I will try to follow as closely as I can using local machinists.

This should push the car in to the 12 second range. But mostly it will be respectable on the street next to the next Mustang GT or Challenger RT that knows he can beat the old dog. Right now there is no contest. The 360 barely gets in to the 14 second range on the track.

So choosing the block to build raises questions. Should I hunt down the cheapest core I can find or get one that is currently running? Talking with some local guys who have some experience engine building, I am told that even a running engine needs to be torn down and sent to a machine shop for inspection and prep. So find the cheapest, or spend more on something that runs?

I can buy a 500 HP crate engine for what, $8K to $9K right now? What is a real world estimate to build an engine doing most of the assembly myself, with some experienced help of course?

[BSB67]

what size engine are you planning?

[Paul G]

440. Stock stroke. I really plan to keep it simple. Street engine, nothing radical. Keeping cost down is a good thing. I wish I could just email Muscle Motors and have an engine delivered to the house. But I am not in that income bracket.

[c00nhunterjoe]

What are the plans for the rest of the drivetrain and suspension? Are you building a track car or a cruiser? You dont need 500hp to run 12s if done right. But there are many many factors in any build.

[Paul G]

Ok, This is a street cruiser, A/C, PS, PB, comfy interior, 400W amp, 4 speakers. It's heavy.   

The car currently has 46rh OD trans. It can stay. It will need an Ultra Bell to convert it to the big block. When I had it rebuilt some parts were put in it to handle 500 HP, at least that was my request to the trans builder. It is fully auto using pressure switches to control OD and LU. It works, but they say it consumes more power than a 727, I dont know for sure.

It has an 8 3/4 sure grip, 3.91 gears. The rear leafs are pretty stiff and have too much arch for my liking. I used 1" blocks to bring down the rear of the car to get the stance more to my liking. Has a pinion snubber installed.

Hellwig sway bars front and rear. Polly bushings in the front suspension. Set up for better cornering on the street and some light autocross days.

Front power disk brakes with Hawk pads, rear drums stock. 

[BSB67]

If you are buying all new stuff, doing it yourself will probably cost you more than buying a motor that is done new buy professionals like MM.  It does me.  I do it because I like it.  

Based on what you want, a stock stroke 440, you need to make sure that you end up with a good block, crank, caps, retainer, and balancer.  Buying them separate might be a bit cheaper, but less certainty about the parts. Buy it running, its probably okay.  If you starting with no 440 at all,  it will become exhausting collecting all of the hardware and accessory brackets, IMO.  You won't save money using factory rods/heads and TRW style replacement pistons.  

If you buy someone else motor that is running, no matter what they tell you about it, don't believe it. Presume you will have to not only go through it, but presume you will need to redo everything.

If I were in your shoes and wanted to do most of the work and decision making myself,  I would look for a complete running motor, or one recently pulled from a car, that is worn-out.

Be sure you are very clear with who ever you are using to help you in the decision making.  I'm always cautious with using "hp" numbers in describing your wants.  There is just too much bs surrounding hp numbers.  You can run 12's with 350 hp.  We have done a bunch of 12 second - true street cars, and I can tell you a lot of people dont think in terms of what I call a true street car.

Be this clear: I want to run 12.6's @ 111 mph on a street tire with a 1.90 sixty foot in a 4000 lb car running in a DA of 3500'.  This is doable but a guy needs to know what he is doing to get there if you are looking for a docile street cruiser too.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Yup.  . If it were my build based on what else you have: a true 10.5:1 bottom end, fully ported edelbrock or trick flow heads. (You will spend as much on just the heads as you will the whole bottom end but its critical) Performer rpm intake, 850 cfm carb, custom ground mechanical cam in the 286 at .050 and .550-.590 lift on a 110 or 112 lsa for the overdrive range. 1 7/8 headers and a good fuel and ignition system.  You will easily crank over 500hp in high altitudes amd bust off low 12s with the 3.91s on your 100° days.

[John_Kunkel]

400W amp, 4 speakers.

Please stay from my neighborhood. 

[Paul G]

400W amp, 4 speakers.

Please stay from my neighborhood. 

Really John? It aint that bad. At least I dont use a sub. (yet)

[c00nhunterjoe]

The sweet sound of my amp....
https://youtu.be/8K_64P2vZr4

[1974dodgecharger]

440. Stock stroke. I really plan to keep it simple. Street engine, nothing radical. Keeping cost down is a good thing. I wish I could just email Muscle Motors and have an engine delivered to the house. But I am not in that income bracket.

muscle motors have short blocks that costs 4500 bucks some stroked to 512 for same price you just provide the top end heads, rockers, etc...

[heyoldguy]

Yup.  . If it were my build based on what else you have: a true 10.5:1 bottom end, fully ported edelbrock or trick flow heads. (You will spend as much on just the heads as you will the whole bottom end but its critical) Performer rpm intake, 850 cfm carb, custom ground mechanical cam in the 286 at .050 and .550-.590 lift on a 110 or 112 lsa for the overdrive range. 1 7/8 headers and a good fuel and ignition system.  You will easily crank over 500hp in high altitudes amd bust off low 12s with the 3.91s on your 100° days.

Really? 286 @ .050"? Typo right?

[Paul G]

Again about the amp. I couldnt hear the music over my 8 cylinder symphony either. I come in at the 1:00 mark

https://www.facebook.com/100008704065829/videos/1525111094455678/

[c00nhunterjoe]

Yup.  . If it were my build based on what else you have: a true 10.5:1 bottom end, fully ported edelbrock or trick flow heads. (You will spend as much on just the heads as you will the whole bottom end but its critical) Performer rpm intake, 850 cfm carb, custom ground mechanical cam in the 286 at .050 and .550-.590 lift on a 110 or 112 lsa for the overdrive range. 1 7/8 headers and a good fuel and ignition system.  You will easily crank over 500hp in high altitudes amd bust off low 12s with the 3.91s on your 100° days.

Really? 286 @ .050"? Typo right?

Good lord, yes, should have said 280 adv, not half. Lol.

[Challenger340]

I am getting ready to attempt my first engine build. I want to get in the >500 HP range. Challenger 340 has a recipe to do this on this site. Most likely that is what I will try to follow as closely as I can using local machinists.

This should push the car in to the 12 second range. But mostly it will be respectable on the street next to the next Mustang GT or Challenger RT that knows he can beat the old dog. Right now there is no contest. The 360 barely gets in to the 14 second range on the track.

So choosing the block to build raises questions. Should I hunt down the cheapest core I can find or get one that is currently running? Talking with some local guys who have some experience engine building, I am told that even a running engine needs to be torn down and sent to a machine shop for inspection and prep. So find the cheapest, or spend more on something that runs?

I can buy a 500 HP crate engine for what, $8K to $9K right now? What is a real world estimate to build an engine doing most of the assembly myself, with some experienced help of course?

Finding a decent Block core to begin work with, is becoming one of the biggest challenges facing most guys these days ? At least around here anyways. Out of the last 5 we pulled apart only 1 was std, and 1 was already .060" = JUNK !

So I dunno if running is good or bad anymore ? Because all of the above were pulled from various "running" Vehicles/Motorhomes, etc
Because.....
I mean LOTS of used up already .030/.040 Blocks running fine, some clean @ .060 W/Sonic Test, but less heat sink for cooling with A/C and high underhood temps, and decent std/clean @ .010" Forged Cranks are getting impossible.
So IMO,
* Find a good 440 Block first with whatever you have to do(make sure you keep the hardware, seal ret, T/Cover, Bolts etc), get it cleaned and rough Bored(see where the Bore cleans)
* Make decisions for a balanced rotating assembly including Crank(this will need checked/Pin-Fitted/Adjust Rod Clrcs)
* Finish the Block Machining(Hone W/T-Plate, Surface Decked, Mainline Checked or Honed W/ARP Studs)
* For 500 hp ? I still think Stealths are just fine(with re-done V/Angles) for the stock appearance, or the Sidewinder's from Marsh Perf. (if you don't need the "sleeper" look)
* Anything BB 440 with an honest 10.1:1 and something 240'ish @ .050 should get you the 500hp/low-mid 500's Trq on the entry level aluminums(with better Angles).... anything Stroker just pulls some more out of the limited heads, but more importantly the BB TORQUE curve for the big car.
Both are all done low 5,000's rpm.... and real "leave her in Drive" type deals, let the Auto shift by itself, nonetheless, you may be pleasantly surprised just how quick that stuff is ?

Good Luck with the Build ! 

[Paul G]

Looking on MM website they have 451/400 built engines on sale for $6999 right now. They claim, "These engines make over 500 HP and 525 ft/lbs of torque". Pricing out a rebuild of an engine I would have to purchase, machine, and build myself, that price seems very reasonable.

http://www.musclemotorsracing.com/

[flyinlow]

It's always nice to see green in the desert. NICE CAR!

Nine years ago my youngest Son and I built (assembled) a 446  for the '73 . The goals where :  100hp more than a stock 440 Magnum, 100 mph or better in the 1/4mile , 100K. mile life and 20 mpg on the road.
43k. miles so far, 18 mpg best. 100 in the 1/4 on a hot day with a passenger

Parts and machine shop . around $5000

Stress level doing cam break in with all theses parts that have not been together before....really high
Warranty...none
Satisfaction when YOUR engine fries the tires all the way thru first gear...........................PRICELESS  

I would do it again in a heart beat. (stroker kit this time)

[pipeliner]

Looking on MM website they have 451/400 built engines on sale for $6999 right now. They claim, "These engines make over 500 HP and 525 ft/lbs of torque". Pricing out a rebuild of an engine I would have to purchase, machine, and build myself, that price seems very reasonable.

http://www.musclemotorsracing.com/

Wonder what kind of Carb and header setup they used to get those numbers and figure in the price for your complete engine. You can actually throw a 451 together yourself way cheaper than that if you have a good mechanist around IMO

[Paul G]

To build an engine myself the breakdown of estimated costs are below. Most prices are from Summit Racing, others are estimated. I am sure I left some things out and over or under estimated others.

$400.00   rebuildable 440 Block   
$75.00   ARP Main Studs   
$105.00   Clevitte Rod & Main Bearings   
$110.00   main bearings   
$542.00   ICON Forged Pistons (9953)   
$40.00   5/64" Moly Ringpack(cheap)   
$2,400.00   Trick Flow Aluminum heads   
$145.00   CompCams XE284H Hydraulic Flat Tappet Cam   
$35.00   cam bearings   
$130.00   Johnson Hylift Lifters   
$265.00   Performer rpm Intake Manifold   
$540.00   850 Holley   
$1,000.00   440 Source valve train   
$85.00   Melling HV Pump & drive   
$95.00   oil pump drive shaft   
$72.00   Cloyes T/Chain & Gears   
$160.00   Mopar Performance V/Covers   
$150.00   Speed Pro O/H Gasket Set   
$29.00   Fuel pump   
$17.00   fuel pump rod   
$120.00   plug wires   
$25.00   plugs   
$1,500.00   Machine labor   

$8,040.00      

[Paul G]

This is my estimated cost for that 451/400.

$6,999.00   Muscle motors 400/451
$265.00   Performer rpm Intake Manifold
$540.00   850 Holley
$29.00   fuel pump
$17.00   fuel pump rod
$145.00   water pump housing
$120.00   water pump
$130.00   Distributors
$120.00   plug wires
$25.00   plugs
$95.00   oil pump drive shaft
   
$8,485.00   

[cdr]

Muscle motors has shut down,  http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/2302642/muscle-motors.html#Post2302642

[pipeliner]

To build an engine myself the breakdown of estimated costs are below. Most prices are from Summit Racing, others are estimated. I am sure I left some things out and over or under estimated others.

$400.00   rebuildable 440 Block   
$75.00   ARP Main Studs   
$105.00   Clevitte Rod & Main Bearings   
$110.00   main bearings   
$542.00   ICON Forged Pistons (9953)   
$40.00   5/64" Moly Ringpack(cheap)   
$2,400.00   Trick Flow Aluminum heads   
$145.00   CompCams XE284H Hydraulic Flat Tappet Cam   
$35.00   cam bearings   
$130.00   Johnson Hylift Lifters   
$265.00   Performer rpm Intake Manifold   
$540.00   850 Holley   
$1,000.00   440 Source valve train   
$85.00   Melling HV Pump & drive   
$95.00   oil pump drive shaft   
$72.00   Cloyes T/Chain & Gears   
$160.00   Mopar Performance V/Covers   
$150.00   Speed Pro O/H Gasket Set   
$29.00   Fuel pump   
$17.00   fuel pump rod   
$120.00   plug wires   
$25.00   plugs   
$1,500.00   Machine labor   

$8,040.00      

I would go that route. My build is somewhat similar but I went roller. I went with Trick Flow heads but I used Mancini 1.6 Rollers Rockers, supposedly made by Harlan sharp,with Trick Flow Rocker shaft studs, Trick Flow Hydraulic Roller Lifters and Comp 286 HR.

[Paul G]

There are good running motor home engines that can be purchased for under $1000. These are known to be low compression, low HP. What would be required to increase the compression? Can it be done with different pistons? Or is decking the block the only way?

[flyinlow]

Pistons

SRP pistons took my '76 Town and Country  440 from 8:1 to 10:1 with Edey 84cc heads.

[Nacho-RT74]

just pistons are enough... then deck the block for blue printed specs... then closed chambers for even more if wished

talking about stock pieces, an earlier HP engine from a Motorhome ( or even a non HP engine )  engine changes on pistons CH, camshaft, valve springs, windage tray, double timming chain set and HP exhaust manifolds... and of course forged crank againts cast crank

Then pre 68 got closed chambers.

From there you know now what elso you can change to get more juice than a "regular" HP engine wth non stock pieces

( I'd go with B block stroke just to be different )