68 charger body but 69 vin?

[TheBipolarRoller]

oh and yup lennards car has been vin swapped to a super rare z coded twin engine hemi car with dual gas caps per tank for each engine. at auction its going to make those hemi cuda verts look like toys. but shhhhhh....dont let anyone know its super secret

That actually sounds like a good idea... for a George Barris Munstermobile.

[Troy]

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?action=post;topic=127599.100;num_replies=114

kinda on topic, but this 68s vin matches the radiator support??? did they change that mid year or something?

This link leads to posting a reply to this thread? 

Luke

Because it was stated earlier that 68 core supports did not match the VIN. That is why?? This one clearly does.

It clearly does not. There is a number stamped on the 68s - but it's the VON from the fender tag and not the VIN from the dash.

Troy

[Troy]

If some guy smashes his Charger and finds a non titled body in wrecking yard....what happens exactly? Both cars should have been crushed? 
This is a different scenario than fraud to fake a hemi car or whatever.  The DMV doesn't give a rats ass about body stampings....only collectors do and that's where it ends.

Just what do you guys think happens when  Jeep guys buy new tubs for their CJ-5's?



... a new tub for a Bronco?
...a new cab for a pickup? 

Bold statements. Not only does the DMV care, but so does the local police, state police, and FBI. I'd love to know the facts behind that statement. A person can apply for a title for the non-titled car. The state could issue a new VIN if the tags are missing. Both are perfectly legal so there's no need to swap VINs.

In some states, buying a new body (like a Dynacorn Mustang) or Jeep is actually a problem when it comes to registration. Kit cars too. On a Jeep, the frame is still there (not the case with a unibody).

Anyone claiming that "Hey, it is MY car and I'm not trying to fool anyone" needs to understand that they may not have that car as long as they think. Stuff happens. People change their minds after awhile, people get sick and die, disappear, go to jail...

True, however that would require someone coming forward with a TITLE in their name matching the car. Which is why you do not get title for parts cars in wrecking yards. the reason so many race cars do not have titles or VINS

BTW there is no government record of stolen cars without 17 digit VINS.  It would be a person vs. person case in court. There are no .gov VIN police lurking around at classic car shows.

Again, not true (either statement). Where do you get this information?

This is they type of stuff I have been writing about this entire thread. Giving legal advice without any liability. Are you willing to cover my legal fees and/or take my place in jail if I follow your advice? If you think it's not possible to get caught (or that no one really cares), remember that Boyd Coddington and several other high profile builders/shops have had legal trouble with regards to titles and VINs.
A quick Google search turned these up:
https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2014/06/11/calgary-man-charged-in-flood-related-vin-cloning-case/
http://jalopnik.com/319267/oh-no-eleanor-unique-performance-accused-of-title-washing
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-7th-circuit/1257009.html
http://www.vintageautomotive.net/?tag=vin-tampering
http://www.vintageautomotive.net/?p=242
http://www.dharlawllp.com/Criminal-Defense/Criminal-Defense-Altering-a-Vehicle-Identification-Number.shtml
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/Fraudster-sentenced-to-prison-for-car-title-scheme-5616143.php
http://www.boss302.com/legal.htm
http://chevellestuff.net/vin/vin_tampering.htm

Troy

[TheBipolarRoller]

If some guy smashes his Charger and finds a non titled body in wrecking yard....what happens exactly? Both cars should have been crushed? 
This is a different scenario than fraud to fake a hemi car or whatever.  The DMV doesn't give a rats ass about body stampings....only collectors do and that's where it ends.

Just what do you guys think happens when  Jeep guys buy new tubs for their CJ-5's?



... a new tub for a Bronco?
...a new cab for a pickup? 

Bold statements. Not only does the DMV care, but so does the local police, state police, and FBI. I'd love to know the facts behind that statement. A person can apply for a title for the non-titled car. The state could issue a new VIN if the tags are missing. Both are perfectly legal so there's no need to swap VINs.

In some states, buying a new body (like a Dynacorn Mustang) or Jeep is actually a problem when it comes to registration. Kit cars too. On a Jeep, the frame is still there (not the case with a unibody).

Anyone claiming that "Hey, it is MY car and I'm not trying to fool anyone" needs to understand that they may not have that car as long as they think. Stuff happens. People change their minds after awhile, people get sick and die, disappear, go to jail...

True, however that would require someone coming forward with a TITLE in their name matching the car. Which is why you do not get title for parts cars in wrecking yards. the reason so many race cars do not have titles or VINS

BTW there is no government record of stolen cars without 17 digit VINS.  It would be a person vs. person case in court. There are no .gov VIN police lurking around at classic car shows.

Again, not true (either statement). Where do you get this information?

This is they type of stuff I have been writing about this entire thread. Giving legal advice without any liability. Are you willing to cover my legal fees and/or take my place in jail if I follow your advice? If you think it's not possible to get caught (or that no one really cares), remember that Boyd Coddington and several other high profile builders/shops have had legal trouble with regards to titles and VINs.
A quick Google search turned these up:
https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2014/06/11/calgary-man-charged-in-flood-related-vin-cloning-case/
http://jalopnik.com/319267/oh-no-eleanor-unique-performance-accused-of-title-washing
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-7th-circuit/1257009.html
http://www.vintageautomotive.net/?tag=vin-tampering
http://www.vintageautomotive.net/?p=242
http://www.dharlawllp.com/Criminal-Defense/Criminal-Defense-Altering-a-Vehicle-Identification-Number.shtml
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/Fraudster-sentenced-to-prison-for-car-title-scheme-5616143.php
http://www.boss302.com/legal.htm
http://chevellestuff.net/vin/vin_tampering.htm

Troy

Thank you Troy for providing good foundational information. And teaching the next generation that they need to start from a foundation of truth and to do their own research and not rely on what other people say.
Case in point: Marijuana dispensaries in Michigan are operating illegally right now... because of a law that does not go in effect until November of 2017. So if you have your medical marijuana license you think you can legally go to a dispensary and get your meds. However, if you are in a dispensary waiting to see a 'bud tender", and the Feds come in a raid that place; you ARE going to jail. Even though you are legal [according to the license in your pocket]. This is why people need to do their own up-to-date research. Same scenario with this VIN swap thread.

[Mytur Binsdirti]

Thank you Troy for providing good foundational information. And teaching the next generation that they need to start from a foundation of truth

[cbrestorations]

Ha....I found the loop hole, its more work than just rolling under a new body but its legal. called the dmv and told them I have a classic car with body vins on the core support and trunk gutter. I said from firewall back the the car is rotted. Can I replace that whole section and get it re-inspected to install original Vin stamp on the gutter. The answer...yes. since the center of the car has no vins it doesn't matter. Now once it's inspected and Vin re-attached to replacement clip...gee what do ya know...someone hit the front of my car while it was in the driveway. How unfortunate right...so now I have to replace the front clip and get it re-inspected to match the existing rear Vin and dash vin. Once front clip is attached and inspected...boom legal rebody hehe. Alot more work but still less than replacing all the metal piece by piece.

[cbrestorations]

I have gone to a wrecking yard and bough a car. Legally he couldn't sell it to me with the vins. He picked it up with his forklift and brought it over to the torching area. He cut out the vins and sold it to me. I have since used the rear clip on one car, rocker, torsion support and rear floor on another and I still have the cowl, roof and right front rail.

[cbrestorations]

Forgot to mention the crappy part. It would have a reconstructed title, not a clear one. You went the route I mentioned with clips. But if it's for urself, who cares

[Troy]

Sometimes the legal ways don't make sense BUT that doesn't change the fact that one thing is illegal and the other isn't. And back to my point about laws in different states... to do part of what you mentioned above here in Ohio would require an inspector or state Trooper to be present and document the numbers from both vehicles. Then it would need inspected for structural integrity after completion. Ohio is fairly lax on a lot of this stuff too. I am sure that certain other states are much more rigid.

Troy

[cbrestorations]

True, every state is different. Everyone will know it is basically a rebody with a reconstructed title. But if you personally just wanted to fix your car and didn't care than you don't have to worry about legal issues. Plus later on if you decided to sell the buyer is aware of what had been done due to reconstructed title.

[Y1CHARGER]

Ha....I found the loop hole, its more work than just rolling under a new body but its legal. called the dmv and told them I have a classic car with body vins on the core support and trunk gutter. I said from firewall back the the car is rotted. Can I replace that whole section and get it re-inspected to install original Vin stamp on the gutter. The answer...yes. since the center of the car has no vins it doesn't matter. Now once it's inspected and Vin re-attached to replacement clip...gee what do ya know...someone hit the front of my car while it was in the driveway. How unfortunate right...so now I have to replace the front clip and get it re-inspected to match the existing rear Vin and dash vin. Once front clip is attached and inspected...boom legal rebody hehe. Alot more work but still less than replacing all the metal piece by piece.

Sounds like you're saying something completely different now as to what you said before, let me remind you
"someone just swapped the dash was all..."          "just slap a 68 vin on it and done..."          "buy it cheap slap a 68 vin on it and roll with it, there are no body numbers to match on a 68 so you could swap vins for every day of they year if you wanted"           "vin a swaps...yeah its illegal but it would save you hassle on owning the car. even if that 68 body happened to be reported stolen many moons ago, they reported the vin not the shipping number. so since its original vin is missing it could never get taken from you. find a rotted junk @ss donor shell and you will know what to do with it Wink  just post a pic of ur junk rotted donor and 1 week later...boom restored fresh 68 charger. like magic, it can be done...ive seen overhaulin build an entire car in 1 week lol.
I'm sure you didn't ask DMV if it was ok" just to slap a 68 VIN on it"
I think you are an IDIOT

[cbrestorations]

Aww....y1charger doesn't wanna be my friend, guess that's a benefit of no f***s given 

[charger01]

Sometimes the legal ways don't make sense BUT that doesn't change the fact that one thing is illegal and the other isn't. And back to my point about laws in different states... to do part of what you mentioned above here in Ohio would require an inspector or state Trooper to be present and document the numbers from both vehicles. Then it would need inspected for structural integrity after completion. Ohio is fairly lax on a lot of this stuff too. I am sure that certain other states are much more rigid.

Troy

So true, Ohio will run you through the ringer on an out of state car.

[Lennard]

I think you are an IDIOT

And....  we have another keyboard warrior on the forum.

[crj1968]

If some guy smashes his Charger and finds a non titled body in wrecking yard....what happens exactly? Both cars should have been crushed?  
This is a different scenario than fraud to fake a hemi car or whatever.  The DMV doesn't give a rats ass about body stampings....only collectors do and that's where it ends.

Just what do you guys think happens when  Jeep guys buy new tubs for their CJ-5's?



... a new tub for a Bronco?
...a new cab for a pickup?  

Bold statements. Not only does the DMV care, but so does the local police, state police, and FBI. I'd love to know the facts behind that statement. A person can apply for a title for the non-titled car. The state could issue a new VIN if the tags are missing. Both are perfectly legal so there's no need to swap VINs.

In some states, buying a new body (like a Dynacorn Mustang) or Jeep is actually a problem when it comes to registration. Kit cars too. On a Jeep, the frame is still there (not the case with a unibody).

Anyone claiming that "Hey, it is MY car and I'm not trying to fool anyone" needs to understand that they may not have that car as long as they think. Stuff happens. People change their minds after awhile, people get sick and die, disappear, go to jail...

True, however that would require someone coming forward with a TITLE in their name matching the car. Which is why you do not get title for parts cars in wrecking yards. the reason so many race cars do not have titles or VINS

BTW there is no government record of stolen cars without 17 digit VINS.  It would be a person vs. person case in court. There are no .gov VIN police lurking around at classic car shows.

Again, not true (either statement). Where do you get this information?

This is they type of stuff I have been writing about this entire thread. Giving legal advice without any liability. Are you willing to cover my legal fees and/or take my place in jail if I follow your advice? If you think it's not possible to get caught (or that no one really cares), remember that Boyd Coddington and several other high profile builders/shops have had legal trouble with regards to titles and VINs.
A quick Google search turned these up:
https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2014/06/11/calgary-man-charged-in-flood-related-vin-cloning-case/
http://jalopnik.com/319267/oh-no-eleanor-unique-performance-accused-of-title-washing
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-7th-circuit/1257009.html
http://www.vintageautomotive.net/?tag=vin-tampering
http://www.vintageautomotive.net/?p=242
http://www.dharlawllp.com/Criminal-Defense/Criminal-Defense-Altering-a-Vehicle-Identification-Number.shtml
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/Fraudster-sentenced-to-prison-for-car-title-scheme-5616143.php
http://www.boss302.com/legal.htm
http://chevellestuff.net/vin/vin_tampering.htm

Troy

Would I cover legal fees for what advice?

With all due respect, I didn't give any advice.

I said there is not a .gov database for stolen cars without 17 digit VINs.  Sure there may a report here and there of my car was stolen with VIN XYZ....but until someone who cares finds XYZ then all you have is a report.  

If something illegal is suspected
it takes a claimant to say so and prove it, that is all I am saying...and that is true in any case.

Everyone with a swapped in motor or trans with a stamp has swapped a VIN number.  

Do we really believe that all the T-buckets out there are original?  

Do we really believe that all the numbers matching mopars are really numbers matching?  Of course not, some because of fraud (unfortunately)and other just because stuff happens and, um there weren't body stamps on earlier cars.


C'mon, it's about fraud and intent....I really don't think there's any bad guys here....but there's this idea that everything that is not numbers matching is somehow illegal and fraudulent....it could be, and usually is, that a guy just needed a new front end.

[alfaitalia]

Really? There are here and at various sorts of race meeting...where lots of stolen vehicles (both cars and motorcycle) end up.

[crj1968]

Bold statements. Not only does the DMV care, but so does the local police, state police, and FBI. I'd love to know the facts behind that statement. A person can apply for a title for the non-titled car. The state could issue a new VIN if the tags are missing. Both are perfectly legal so there's no need to swap VINs.

I hear what you are saying, but I am talking about cars where the VIN was already swapped long ago . I have owned easily 40+ mopars and the DMV looks at the Title and the dash vin to transfer ownership...I have never seen anyone even bother with the door sticker.

All those mopars I've owned, I don't even know if they were original or not, didn't care....didn't even think about it, as I am not an investor/collector....that is a different subject

[Troy]

If some guy smashes his Charger and finds a non titled body in wrecking yard....what happens exactly? Both cars should have been crushed? 
This is a different scenario than fraud to fake a hemi car or whatever.  The DMV doesn't give a rats ass about body stampings....only collectors do and that's where it ends.

Just what do you guys think happens when  Jeep guys buy new tubs for their CJ-5's?



... a new tub for a Bronco?
...a new cab for a pickup? 

Bold statements. Not only does the DMV care, but so does the local police, state police, and FBI. I'd love to know the facts behind that statement. A person can apply for a title for the non-titled car. The state could issue a new VIN if the tags are missing. Both are perfectly legal so there's no need to swap VINs.

In some states, buying a new body (like a Dynacorn Mustang) or Jeep is actually a problem when it comes to registration. Kit cars too. On a Jeep, the frame is still there (not the case with a unibody).

Anyone claiming that "Hey, it is MY car and I'm not trying to fool anyone" needs to understand that they may not have that car as long as they think. Stuff happens. People change their minds after awhile, people get sick and die, disappear, go to jail...

True, however that would require someone coming forward with a TITLE in their name matching the car. Which is why you do not get title for parts cars in wrecking yards. the reason so many race cars do not have titles or VINS

BTW there is no government record of stolen cars without 17 digit VINS.  It would be a person vs. person case in court. There are no .gov VIN police lurking around at classic car shows.

Again, not true (either statement). Where do you get this information?

This is they type of stuff I have been writing about this entire thread. Giving legal advice without any liability. Are you willing to cover my legal fees and/or take my place in jail if I follow your advice? If you think it's not possible to get caught (or that no one really cares), remember that Boyd Coddington and several other high profile builders/shops have had legal trouble with regards to titles and VINs.
A quick Google search turned these up:
https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2014/06/11/calgary-man-charged-in-flood-related-vin-cloning-case/
http://jalopnik.com/319267/oh-no-eleanor-unique-performance-accused-of-title-washing
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-7th-circuit/1257009.html
http://www.vintageautomotive.net/?tag=vin-tampering
http://www.vintageautomotive.net/?p=242
http://www.dharlawllp.com/Criminal-Defense/Criminal-Defense-Altering-a-Vehicle-Identification-Number.shtml
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/Fraudster-sentenced-to-prison-for-car-title-scheme-5616143.php
http://www.boss302.com/legal.htm
http://chevellestuff.net/vin/vin_tampering.htm

Troy

Would I cover legal fees for what advice?

With all due respect, I didn't give any advice.

I said there is not a .gov database for stolen cars without 17 digit VINs.  Sure there may a report here and there of my car was stolen with VIN XYZ....but until someone who cares finds XYZ then all you have is a report. 

If something illegal is suspected
it takes a claimant to say so and prove it, that is all I am saying...and that is true in any case.

Everyone with a swapped in motor or trans with a stamp has swapped a VIN number. 

Do we really believe that all the T-buckets out there are original? 

Do we really believe that all the numbers matching mopars are really numbers matching?  Of course not, some because of fraud (unfortunately)and other just because stuff happens and, um there weren't body stamps on earlier cars.


C'mon, it's about fraud and intent....I really don't think there's any bad guys here....but there's this idea that everything that is not numbers matching is somehow illegal and fraudulent....it could be, and usually is, that a guy just needed a new front end.

advice [ad-vahys]
noun 1. an opinion or recommendation offered as a guide to action, conduct, etc.

You've stated plenty of opinions that someone could use to make a decision so I stand by my use of the word.

Did you read any of the links? Didn't think so. One specifically stated officers were walking around an auction looking for suspicious vehicles. Granted, a lot of the big names were caught solely because they were costing the state money through either registration and licensing fees or taxes. Again, no one came forward to dispute their ownership (well, possibly some of the new owners).

Not all engines or transmissions have a VIN. Changing either of those is legal everywhere as far as I know.

What I believe makes no difference in the eyes of the law. That still doesn't make something legal. There are lots of people who believe it's ok to rape children yet they still go to jail.

Lack of intent may keep you out of jail - it doesn't guarantee you get to keep your stuff. Again, I have seen this in person. I am NOT saying "that everything that is not numbers matching is somehow illegal and fraudulent". I am saying that purposely swapping the dash VIN (for any reason) is illegal everywhere.

Troy

[crj1968]

No I didnt read all your links as I've researched it all before.....and it all kind of is just like an age old argument... Fruand / intent...yadda yadda..

BUT it's not just dash VINS...it is any VIN tampering....so how about that motor and trans that is stamped?  

Understand please, I am not advocating VIN fraud or child rape (thanks for that) I'm just talking 40-60 year old cars....

No one should use my opinions or experiences to make any decisions... who am I? (If anyone is using an internet forum for definitive legal advice, they should give high school a second chance )

[crj1968]

But wait, one more simple question;  Yes or No.

Are the thousands and thousands of guys that bought new tubs for their Jeeps or new cabs for their trucks, felons?    

[Bronzedodge]

I'll add this:

No.  I rebodied an '85 CJ-7 with a 90 Wrangler tub.  No vin with the 90 tub.  Limited desirability, and no one gives a darn.  It's still a Jeep.

So...you have a rusty XP29F9 319 Charger.  You replace 87% of it's panels with AMD and Coronet donors.  You keep the 318 VIN and drop in a 400 stroker.  No one gives a darn, it's still a 318 Charger with a big block.

You have a rusty XS29L9 Charger R/T.  You have a clean 318 Charger and you cut out the core support, trunk gutter, etc and carefully make the welds as good as any other restoration.  You document all this and disclose full history to all buyers.  What's it worth?  Not as much as an original car.  Either way, you have disclosed the complete history, photos, etc.  I suspect that no one will give a darn.

The obvious problem, of course, is too many are looking for profit and skip the full disclosure part.  Then quite a few will give a darn.   

[alfaitalia]

It's illegal whether they "give a darn" or not!

[crj1968]

It's definitely not illegal to buy a new tub for a jeep....I mean seriously Alfa, you know this, you are on the Jeep forums.
It's illegal to steal a new tub for a Jeep.

This stuff isn't even an issue in the Jeep world...in fact a new tub is a good thing.
Of course there are supposed and real  "all original survivors" like anything else that are extra special.....but it's not like mopar land.

It is an issue in the COLLECTOR car market....unless of course, that car is 75% AMD metal, then it's all good.  

Anyhooooooooo....it all turns rust and rot one day anyway.

If you smell a rat stay way...there's my official advice.  

Take the car to the DMV and see what they say if you are apprehensive...they may issue you out a new VIN and then you're good to go and so is the next guy.

[Y1CHARGER]

I'll add this:

No.  I rebodied an '85 CJ-7 with a 90 Wrangler tub.  No vin with the 90 tub.  Limited desirability, and no one gives a darn.  It's still a Jeep.

So...you have a rusty XP29F9 319 Charger.  You replace 87% of it's panels with AMD and Coronet donors.  You keep the 318 VIN and drop in a 400 stroker.  No one gives a darn, it's still a 318 Charger with a big block.

You have a rusty XS29L9 Charger R/T.  You have a clean 318 Charger and you cut out the core support, trunk gutter, etc and carefully make the welds as good as any other restoration.  You document all this and disclose full history to all buyers.  What's it worth?  Not as much as an original car.  Either way, you have disclosed the complete history, photos, etc.  I suspect that no one will give a darn.

The obvious problem, of course, is too many are looking for profit and skip the full disclosure part.  Then quite a few will give a darn.   

What you just stated, swapping VIN numbers,  is completely illegal and basically providing proof for the authorities to put you in jail.  So what your saying is that if you commit a crime, lets say murder, as long as you document it with lots of pictures or a video, "no one would give a dam."  Sorry but you "suspect" wrong.  Another just joined the club

[cbrestorations]

  awwww y1charger you are special, you just compared a guy wanting to restore his jeep by replacing the shell on the same level of crime as a guy committing a murder  now i know whats wrong with you...