Before I spend 2k ....

[Alan73Charger]

Any feedback / suggestions would be greatly appreciated!!

My 318 is about to go through some major upgrades.

New rear main seal and new high volume oil pump while there.

Also converting to a 4 barrel carb with Edelbrock 3776 intake.  (Yes I have an EGR)   Any carb suggestions?  Looking at Edelbrock performer series 1400.  I've seen sites saying this is good for all pre 1980 GM vehicles..  but I'm assuming it's fine for my Charger??

Yes I will be upgrading to a new cam.  I'm not sure on the type yet, the guy doing my engine rebuild said he has one he likes to use in all his rebuilds.  Stage two comp cam I believe he said.

My last item involves the exhaust.  I already have duel exhaust on the car with 77441 cherry bombs coming off what I assume are the stock cast-iron manifolds.  I would like to put some headers on the car.  I've heard many good things about the Hedmans but am confused with what to use.  The 78500 tight tube's look like they would bolt right on to my existing pipes but amazon lists them as for racing only, not for highway use.  Is this correct?  They also say I would have to use a mini starter?  I've heard the Hedmans 78050's will work but it's obvious they would require modification of my current exhaust.  Any suggestions on a good set of headers?

Thanks again!

[myk]

Don't just trust someone to drop a cam in for you; at least know what the specs are and post them on here so that people that are familiar with building these engines can have their say.  When you say you have a guy that "likes to use a cam for all his builds," that is a red flag for me because every engine is different, even if they're both the same displacement, year, etc.  Also what is the current setup in the engine?  Pistons?  Valves?  Heads?  What's your rear axle ratio?  Advertised torque converter stall speed?  You can't change cams without knowing these things.  Otherwise you're just throwing parts at the car and you could end up with a dog that can barely run the quarter in 15 seconds like MY CAR.

What CFM Edelbrock 'carb are you planning to buy?  I have the 1411 Edelbrock, which is a 750 CFM.  For your 318 I wouldn't go over a 600....I think.  You definitely don't want to over-carb your motor.  Also, I'm planning on buying a Holley at some point.  I've had this Edelbrock since the late 90's and like many other Mopar owners I am not a fan.

As for your exhaust, I'm a fanboi for anything that I buy so I will only suggest TTi's or Doug Thorleys.  They're twice as much as anything else, including those Hedmans, but their reputation for ease of install, quality, reliability and longetivity are worth the extra money, IMO.  You will have to use a mini starter; I went with a '96 Dakota starter.

Post that 'cam and current engine info as soon as you can, so that the builders here can comment on it. You only want to do this once...

[Alan73Charger]

Thanks,  I'll get more info on this cam.  I was going to use Edelbrock 2177 with the 7803 timing chain set but like I said this guy who has a great reputation and has been building motors for 40 years said he would use a different cam.  As for current engine set up to my knowledge all is whatever a stock 318 would be.  All I've done is replaced some valve covers. I did take some pictures when I had those covers off and found some numbers.  Would it help to post those?
Rear end is 8 1/4.  2852905 10 bolt.  Again I assume stock.  Not 100% sure on the current ratio. 

The Edelbrock 1400 is a 600 cfm.  I've heard many say the Edelbrock was good right out of the box and that Holleys need to be constantly tinkered with.  Since they're just a knockoff of the Carter why do many Mopar fans not like them?   

Thanks for the suggestions on the headers.  I'll look at them.  Also thanks for the starter info.  The one suggested on the Hedmans site didn't appear to be available anymore and was very expensive.  You went with this starter?  -  http://www.amazon.com/STARTER-DODGE-SERIES-DAKOTA-DURANGO/dp/B0079SG4SS

Don't just trust someone to drop a cam in for you; at least know what the specs are and post them on here so that people that are familiar with building these engines can have their say.  When you say you have a guy that "likes to use a cam for all his builds," that is a red flag for me because every engine is different, even if they're both the same displacement, year, etc.  Also what is the current setup in the engine?  Pistons?  Valves?  Heads?  What's your rear axle ratio?  Advertised torque converter stall speed?  You can't change cams without knowing these things.  Otherwise you're just throwing parts at the car and you could end up with a dog that can barely run the quarter in 15 seconds like MY CAR.

What CFM Edelbrock 'carb are you planning to buy?  I have the 1411 Edelbrock, which is a 750 CFM.  For your 318 I wouldn't go over a 600....I think.  You definitely don't want to over-carb your motor.  Also, I'm planning on buying a Holley at some point.  I've had this Edelbrock since the late 90's and like many other Mopar owners I am not a fan.

As for your exhaust, I'm a fanboi for anything that I buy so I will only suggest TTi's or Doug Thorleys.  They're twice as much as anything else, including those Hedmans, but their reputation for ease of install, quality, reliability and longetivity are worth the extra money, IMO.  You will have to use a mini starter; I went with a '96 Dakota starter.

Post that 'cam and current engine info as soon as you can, so that the builders here can comment on it. You only want to do this once...

[Ryan.C]

Thanks for the suggestions on the headers.  I'll look at them.  Also thanks for the starter info.  The one suggested on the Hedmans site didn't appear to be available anymore and was very expensive.  You went with this starter?  -  http://www.amazon.com/STARTER-DODGE-SERIES-DAKOTA-DURANGO/dp/B0079SG4SS


I have been running a similar starter for a 383 in a C-body and it works great. The engine rolls over so much quicker versus the old gear reduction paper weight. And its lifetime warranty! I recomend it 

[XH29N0G]

From what I read, many people use the edelbrock carburetors.  My car came with a Holley so that is what I have known.  I don't find them fiddly.  Depending on the model, they can have a lot of adjustability, but you need to put the time in to learn it.  I enjoy that process, but can see where it would make sense to just put something on that was close to running and run with that.  Others on here will know of reliability issues, but as far as I can tell, both work and keep working for a long time.

[Troy]

The Summit brand headers have a great reputation for fitting on small block cars. And they're dirt cheap!

A 4 bbl will likely be a step back. I've had four different 318 powered Mopars. One had a rather large 2 bbl and headers installed and it was surprisingly fast (this is what the dirt track racers around here had to do). I think Carter makes 2 bbls up to about 600 cfm. Two were stock (68 and 70) and did reasonably well with decent power. Nothing earth shattering but bulletproof reliability. The last was a 73 (so smog era with low compression) and it had a 4 bbl intake and Edelbrock carb. It was horrible! Well, until you got to about 60 mph. The stock 2.76 gears likely didn't help. Basically, a reasonably stock 318 isn't going to make use of a much bigger carb and you lose the throttle response of the 2 bbl (no secondaries). I also have a 70 Mach 1 with a 351. It's got a 2 bbl from a 390 (somewhere around 400 cfm maybe?) but if I never opened the hood no one would believe it. It's the 2nd fastest classic car I own right now.

Honestly, I wouldn't put a dime into upgrading a 318. Sounds harsh but it's mostly throwing money away. It would be smarter and easier to just start with a 360 or even a later model Magnum motor. Both will respond much better to intake and exhaust upgrades. Same price as your 318 to upgrade an LA 360 but you get an extra 42 ci. Magnums have much better flowing heads and a roller cam straight from the factory. Of course both will bolt up to whatever exhaust you use if you want to do things incrementally.

If I were putting an intake on any small block I'd go straight to an Edelbrock RPM Air Gap (same for big blocks really). I've had Edelbrock carbs on several cars. Tuning is easy but you'll likely leave some power on the table. Don't forget a decent ignition!

Troy

[Alan73Charger]

The Summit brand headers have a great reputation for fitting on small block cars. And they're dirt cheap!

A 4 bbl will likely be a step back. I've had four different 318 powered Mopars. One had a rather large 2 bbl and headers installed and it was surprisingly fast (this is what the dirt track racers around here had to do). I think Carter makes 2 bbls up to about 600 cfm. Two were stock (68 and 70) and did reasonably well with decent power. Nothing earth shattering but bulletproof reliability. The last was a 73 (so smog era with low compression) and it had a 4 bbl intake and Edelbrock carb. It was horrible! Well, until you got to about 60 mph. The stock 2.76 gears likely didn't help. Basically, a reasonably stock 318 isn't going to make use of a much bigger carb and you lose the throttle response of the 2 bbl (no secondaries). I also have a 70 Mach 1 with a 351. It's got a 2 bbl from a 390 (somewhere around 400 cfm maybe?) but if I never opened the hood no one would believe it. It's the 2nd fastest classic car I own right now.

Honestly, I wouldn't put a dime into upgrading a 318. Sounds harsh but it's mostly throwing money away. It would be smarter and easier to just start with a 360 or even a later model Magnum motor. Both will respond much better to intake and exhaust upgrades. Same price as your 318 to upgrade an LA 360 but you get an extra 42 ci. Magnums have much better flowing heads and a roller cam straight from the factory. Of course both will bolt up to whatever exhaust you use if you want to do things incrementally.

If I were putting an intake on any small block I'd go straight to an Edelbrock RPM Air Gap (same for big blocks really). I've had Edelbrock carbs on several cars. Tuning is easy but you'll likely leave some power on the table. Don't forget a decent ignition!

Troy

Hey thanks Tony.  I looked at summit headers.  Every one for a small block said they wouldn't fit a car with power steering..  So that let me to the Hedmans.

On the carb - as you and I both know Carter quit making carbs many years ago.  Is there a model that you would recommend I could buy somewhere thats been rebuilt?  What sort of CFM would I have on my current 2 barrel?  (6317S)  I've been having issues with it flooding.  Gas just drips from everywhere!   It's currently away at Carburetor USA and should be back soon.  I was going to upgrade the cam so my 318 could make better use of the 4 barrel.  I've heard doing the upgrade to the 4 barrel and leaving the stock cam is a true waste of money.  Perhaps upgrading to a 4 barrel under any situation is if it's a step back in your opinion. 

I did look at those RPM air gaps but they seemed a bit overkill for my 318 and more for the 340/360's.  Plus all were non EGR also.  Of course if I change my mind on the carb upgrade I won't need a new intake anyway!!   

Any ignition upgrade suggestions?  I hadn't even thought about that other than that better starter but that was more out of need so the headers would fit.

[Alan73Charger]

Thanks for the suggestions on the headers.  I'll look at them.  Also thanks for the starter info.  The one suggested on the Hedmans site didn't appear to be available anymore and was very expensive.  You went with this starter?  -  http://www.amazon.com/STARTER-DODGE-SERIES-DAKOTA-DURANGO/dp/B0079SG4SS


I have been running a similar starter for a 383 in a C-body and it works great. The engine rolls over so much quicker versus the old gear reduction paper weight. And its lifetime warranty! I recomend it 

Hey thanks for the input!  Are you using that same exact starter or what one?  Sounds like it's working great.  That dakota one is like $77 bucks on amazon.  Most of the ones Summit was suggesting are in the $150-250 range.

[myk]

Are you set on using the 318?  Can you go with the larger 360 like Troy suggested?  I'd love a Hemi myself but we work with what we can have...

[Alan73Charger]

Are you set on using the 318?  Can you go with the larger 360 like Troy suggested?  I'd love a Hemi myself but we work with what we can have...

I'm not set on it but it is the original motor so thought I would try to keep the car intact.  Other than the duel exhaust and tires and wheels it looks pretty original. 

So you could just buy the 360 already done and pull the 318 out and drop the other in?  It just seems like it would be more work than that.  I'm not sure what my 8.25 rear end and what I assume are original 2.76 gears would think.  Would switching out the motors lead to several other needs.. ie... MONEY??

[Troy]

Well, you could buy Dougs or TTi headers but but you could get a running 5.9 Magnum for about what they cost...

I have heard people using the truck or Jeep manifolds in their Magnum swaps. Clears everything underneath but can get tight near the firewall.

So let me clarify a bit... you can add a cam, aluminum heads, 4bbl carb and intake, and headers which will cost over $3,000 and pick up about 100 hp (on the 180 hp versions - yours is 150). Push it too far and you're going to have to consider transmission and rear axle upgrades. Overall, that's still less output than a 383 - but a 383 can be had for practically nothing in most places which leaves you a lot of cash for a transmission and rear axle.

So what do you want out of the car? It sounds like you're pretty happy with what you have but would like "more". To me, a better cam and a well tuned carb and ignition will probably get what you want. Maybe shave the heads for more compression? I believe you're at or below 8:1 right now. If you can get numerically higher rear gears for the 8 1/4 that would be a ball. You already have the Mopar electronic ignition (distributor and orange box). I'm not a fan but it's probably all you need. Make sure you have good plugs and wires. Many Ford carbs fit, the Rochester is popular, or you can get an adapter for the Holley 500 (#4412?). A 4bbl can get better mileage but I have no idea how many miles you have to drive to make up for the expense.

Some reading material:
http://www.allpar.com/mopar/4bbl.html
http://www.allpar.com/mopar/318.html
http://www.moparchat.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-87437.html
http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=115946
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/mopp-0312-318-long-block-bolt-ons/

Troy

[mopar0166]

I ran a 650 DP holley and a performer rpm cam,  my old 318 loved it especially with good headers

[Alan73Charger]

I ran a 650 DP holley and a performer rpm cam,  my old 318 loved it especially with good headers

Hadn't thought about over 600 CFM but like the sounds of that.  So did you use the performer rpm intake when you upgraded the carb?  I would have to stick with the performer, since I have that damn EGR!

[Alan73Charger]

Well, you could buy Dougs or TTi headers but but you could get a running 5.9 Magnum for about what they cost...

I have heard people using the truck or Jeep manifolds in their Magnum swaps. Clears everything underneath but can get tight near the firewall.

So let me clarify a bit... you can add a cam, aluminum heads, 4bbl carb and intake, and headers which will cost over $3,000 and pick up about 100 hp (on the 180 hp versions - yours is 150). Push it too far and you're going to have to consider transmission and rear axle upgrades. Overall, that's still less output than a 383 - but a 383 can be had for practically nothing in most places which leaves you a lot of cash for a transmission and rear axle.

So what do you want out of the car? It sounds like you're pretty happy with what you have but would like "more". To me, a better cam and a well tuned carb and ignition will probably get what you want. Maybe shave the heads for more compression? I believe you're at or below 8:1 right now. If you can get numerically higher rear gears for the 8 1/4 that would be a ball. You already have the Mopar electronic ignition (distributor and orange box). I'm not a fan but it's probably all you need. Make sure you have good plugs and wires. Many Ford carbs fit, the Rochester is popular, or you can get an adapter for the Holley 500 (#4412?). A 4bbl can get better mileage but I have no idea how many miles you have to drive to make up for the expense.

Some reading material:
http://www.allpar.com/mopar/4bbl.html
http://www.allpar.com/mopar/318.html
http://www.moparchat.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-87437.html
http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=115946
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/mopp-0312-318-long-block-bolt-ons/

Troy

Troy,

Thanks for all the reading material.  I've been reading a lot! 

You're correct that I'm pretty happy with the car.  It sounds great and I'm not looking to do any racing.  I just want a good street car that will be a blast to drive on the open roads.  I just know I'm sitting on a 43 yr old motor and if I'm going to keep it then it's time to rebuild it and make it shine in mopar blue again.  So what to do when that motor is out is the question.  I only want to do this once!  Time to upgrade the dizzy?  Cam?  Hadn't considered aluminum heads.  Had thought about the intake and 4 barrel carb.  Going to put a new starter on it, water pump, and edelbrock fuel pump.  If you did change the ignition what would you do?  So many decisions!

As for the gears I wasn't sure what I could do with my existing 8.25.  3:21?  3:55?   Or would I need to go to an 8.75 rear end to do any serious upgrade?

Thanks for all the input.  I've owned a few Mopars but always original and always just let them be, so this is totally new for me.

[XH29N0G]

I just took a look and it looks like on Summit there are 3.21 and 3.55 ring and pinion gears for an 8.25.  If you don't do the work yourself, I don't know if changing them will be cheaper than looking for a used set.  See what others say. 

I had the gears changed in my 8.75 and the labor was the main cost.  The change was probably the second most noticeable change I made to my car.  The most dramatic was a completely different engine.

Be warned, that the driveshaft will spin faster and you can then run into issues with vibrations if it is not balanced properly.  I went to a truck shop and they balanced it cheap and correctly.  Also find out what the rpm will be if you are on the highway and decide if it is worth it.  My guess is that it will be, but check.   

[Alan73Charger]

I just took a look and it looks like on Summit there are 3.21 and 3.55 ring and pinion gears for an 8.25.  If you don't do the work yourself, I don't know if changing them will be cheaper than looking for a used set.  See what others say. 

I had the gears changed in my 8.75 and the labor was the main cost.  The change was probably the second most noticeable change I made to my car.  The most dramatic was a completely different engine.

Be warned, that the driveshaft will spin faster and you can then run into issues with vibrations if it is not balanced properly.  I went to a truck shop and they balanced it cheap and correctly.  Also find out what the rpm will be if you are on the highway and decide if it is worth it.  My guess is that it will be, but check.   

Thanks for the input.  Curious what the labor was for you.  I did see the sets on Summit. Interesting that the 3.55 set was less money.   Who does this type of work?  A transmission shop?  A regular mechanic?

[XH29N0G]

Someone else on here will be better at answering the question of cost and who would be the most appropriate to rebuild the differential.  I have a figure in mind of something like 600-1000 but it could have been more (or less) - the truth is I don't recall the number.  I found the shop by asking at my local NAPA store for someone who could do the work on an older differential, and then went to talk with the person they sent me to.  It was not a typical shop, and my judgement was based on gut feel.  If I were you, I would ask your question to the list about how to proceed and maybe whether anyone on the list is local and can advise on a shop to do the work if you decide to proceed.    If you don't get a response here, you can start a specific thread with the request.

[Bronzedodge]

There is tons of potential with a 318.  Back in the early 70's Mullen & Co was sonic checking blocks, selecting ones for a huge .090 or better overbore and making stroker cranks.  Back then it was expensive.    A set of 360 heads and a copy of a 340 cam will run well.   Anyway, - your combo, - if you're keeping the 318 heads you won't need over 600 cfm in the carb.  Small valves will not be able to take advantage of the larger carb breathing potential.   

[Alan73Charger]

There is tons of potential with a 318.  Back in the early 70's Mullen & Co was sonic checking blocks, selecting ones for a huge .090 or better overbore and making stroker cranks.  Back then it was expensive.    A set of 360 heads and a copy of a 340 cam will run well.   Anyway, - your combo, - if you're keeping the 318 heads you won't need over 600 cfm in the carb.  Small valves will not be able to take advantage of the larger carb breathing potential.   

Thanks.  I do plan on keeping the heads, just doing a cam, lifters, springs, valve train, etc.  And of course the new intake to set the 4 barrel on.  I agree on the carb, I just know I need something better then this BBD 2 barrel that gives me nothing but trouble.  Someone said that carb is around 330 CFM but not sure if that's accurate.   

[74calicharger]

You are in the same boat I was in some years ago. I needed to rebuild my 318 and my car still needed to pass emissions testing. I can tell you that the edelbrock rv cam is a step up along with a 600 cfm 4 barrel and dual exhaust. that being said that motor had an internal parts failure and broke with less than 2000 miles on it and my engine guy rebuilt it for free. which leads me to tell you about the engine i have now. still the 318 bored out 40 over cam is an Ingles or something like that 214/224 stock 318 heads lightly ported edelbrock performer manifold with 600 cfm carb. Using an msd billet distributor because the original wasn't cutting it anymore. still factory exhaust manifolds because i wont pay $800+ for good headers or dent cheap ones. and I was told i would loose bottom end with long tubes. but i am toying with using shortys from a magnum engine just to see what would happen. anyway to continue Ive got a factory hi stall converter in the 727 somewhere between 1800 and 2000 and an 8 3/4 with 3.55 posi.
I wont lie its a little slow out of the hole but it revs up pretty quick and pulls pretty good for a heavy car. After going through that Id opt for more cubes if you can. I am exempt from emissions testing and will eventually find a big block to swap in. Try and find a used 8 3/4 and check out swap meets for the center section with gears you want. Rebuild them as time and $$ permit then just swap the whole thing in an afternoon. The 3.55s are fun and I turn close to 3k doin 75 on the freeway so its not unbearable. You can wake up the 318 and it will be fun but at a point you will say " I could've had more with a bigger motor". But as I ve said I am still beating on my 318 20+ years later and its still pretty fun.

[Bronzedodge]

The flow rating of a 2 bbl vs a 4 bbl are not a direct relationship, as they are rated at different pressure drops.

Good write up here:  http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Carbshop_carbsizesandCFM.htm     

[Alan73Charger]

You are in the same boat I was in some years ago. I needed to rebuild my 318 and my car still needed to pass emissions testing. I can tell you that the edelbrock rv cam is a step up along with a 600 cfm 4 barrel and dual exhaust. that being said that motor had an internal parts failure and broke with less than 2000 miles on it and my engine guy rebuilt it for free. which leads me to tell you about the engine i have now. still the 318 bored out 40 over cam is an Ingles or something like that 214/224 stock 318 heads lightly ported edelbrock performer manifold with 600 cfm carb. Using an msd billet distributor because the original wasn't cutting it anymore. still factory exhaust manifolds because i wont pay $800+ for good headers or dent cheap ones. and I was told i would loose bottom end with long tubes. but i am toying with using shortys from a magnum engine just to see what would happen. anyway to continue Ive got a factory hi stall converter in the 727 somewhere between 1800 and 2000 and an 8 3/4 with 3.55 posi.
I wont lie its a little slow out of the hole but it revs up pretty quick and pulls pretty good for a heavy car. After going through that Id opt for more cubes if you can. I am exempt from emissions testing and will eventually find a big block to swap in. Try and find a used 8 3/4 and check out swap meets for the center section with gears you want. Rebuild them as time and $$ permit then just swap the whole thing in an afternoon. The 3.55s are fun and I turn close to 3k doin 75 on the freeway so its not unbearable. You can wake up the 318 and it will be fun but at a point you will say " I could've had more with a bigger motor". But as I ve said I am still beating on my 318 20+ years later and its still pretty fun.

Thanks for the info!  Yes I know I can just drop a 360 in but if I'm a stickler for keeping a car original when I can.  I'm not looking to win any races or pull 13's in the quarter, just want to add a little pep to an old original motor.  The paint and interior on my 73 looks fantastic and now I need to get it performing the same way.