Too much power?

[69hemidaytona]

Too Much Power.............three words that can never be used in that order.... 

Unless you're talking about our president

[Mike DC]

Yeah, that entire setup is not designed to dead hook a 2 ton car. That looks more like a drifting setup.

                           
I agree.  The Hotchkiss setup seems totally oriented at handling.

That's the limitation of doing anything with a 2-ton car.  You can make it do well at dragging or handling, but not both.  



Our cars are too heavy for high performance in general.  Some people make it work but that does not prove it's a sensible idea.  
             

[Kern Dog]

Maybe if your skills are lacking.
The Hellcat outweighs us by 500-700 lbs and doesn't seem to have trouble as a high performance car.  If you spend money in the right places, you can have it all.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Maybe if your skills are lacking.
The Hellcat outweighs us by 500-700 lbs and doesn't seem to have trouble as a high performance car.  If you spend money in the right places, you can have it all.

Apples to oranges comparison for one, but that aside, it has 707 hp and only runs 11s in the 1/4. Electronic stability control, 8 speed trans, supercharged, how do you even start to compare that to a 60s car?

[Kern Dog]

Hey, if YOU are unable to get your car to handle well, stop well and turn a decent ET, that is sad. The potential is there. You just need to learn how to unlock it.

[Mike DC]

  
If we asked a group of physicists & engineers how to reduce a vehicle's G-forces in every direction, as effectively as possible . . . their answer would be "add curb weight"  We could hardly invent a better way to do it if we tried.


We find ways around it, yeah.  But that doesn't mean it's not posing a problem.  

[Kern Dog]

Don't misunderstand... I DO get it. A stripped out car will perform better than a loaded down luxury car.
It just smacks of ignorance when I hear someone say that old cars can't compete with new cars in terms of performance. Sure, the new cars are much quieter and have fewer rattles and such. The classics can be modified to perform. Mine does.

[1974dodgecharger]

Don't misunderstand... I DO get it. A stripped out car will perform better than a loaded down luxury car.
It just smacks of ignorance when I hear someone say that old cars can't compete with new cars in terms of performance. Sure, the new cars are much quieter and have fewer rattles and such. The classics can be modified to perform. Mine does.

Aerodynamics hold us old cars down....HENCE muscle car era they put the biggest engine they could in a brick didn't care for Aero at all hence all the beauty old classics have over modern day cars.  You can put my, 'junk' next to a, 'hellcat' anything and people will say my junk looks better.  Does not mean my car will out perform the hellcat in say a, 'G' rating, but 1/4 mile I can catch up with some better stickys, supercharger, etc...

[Ghoste]

Yeah, yeah our big old fat heavy obsolete antique dinosaur cars can't handle like they are on rails, stop on a dime with change, get 30 mpg, have built in wifi and backup cameras and gps and microwave ovens and self park features and the ability to change color and all of the other things that 50 years of advancing technology has given the modern automobile.
On the other hand though I can't recall ever seeing too many modern cars getting iconic movie roles that hold the car up as an essential "character" in the film, being reproduced in a dizzying array of variety as miniatures, getting thumbs up everywhere they are driven, and retaining the sort of across the age group interest and devotion my obsolete antique seems to have.  (especially when the manufacturer driven forums and meets are taken out of the picture)

[skip68]

Far as I know these cars were never considered as sports cars.   
More of a sports sedan if I remember correctly.   Yes, any car can be modified to run with newer cars and such but now it's no longer an old car.   It's been modified.   Although I think with only frame connectors and suspension work along with the right tires Will give you a car that's competitive with today's equivalent type of car.   I think that's what Kern dog is saying.   In fact, our cars have an additional advantage off the bat.  They weigh about 1,000lbs less than the newer chargers and challengers I believe.   So the more I think about it the more I can see an old charger or challenger being equals performance wise without having to be overly modified.   
Of course you won't have traction control and anti lock breaking but far as cornering goes I bet it'd hold up.   
Need some road course guys to chime in on that.   

[Mike DC]

                  
A muscle-era Mopar A-body weighs like a Corvette or a 1990s Honda.  Whereas a Hellcat Charger/Chally weighs like a classic C-body land yacht.  



I'm not dissing old cars for being heavy.  

I'm saying heavy cars are a dumb way to be sporty, whatever the era it was made.

[myk]

Yeah, I know that the "smart" choice would be an A body or hell I'll say it, a similar era Mustang, Camaro, whatever; or maybe even a newer muscle car like my '99 T/A that, bone stock, would run circles around the Charger, but I can't help it.  The idea of changing my B body from land yacht to land shark is too attractive, and I know I wouldn't feel right in another type of car.  Furthermore, although I'll probably never make it to this level, I still always use this story for my inspiration:

http://www.powerperformancenews.com/features/1968-dodge-charger-the-road-less-traveled/

[68pplcharger]

                 
A muscle-era Mopar A-body weighs like a Corvette or a 1990s Honda.  Whereas a Hellcat Charger/Chally weighs like a classic C-body land yacht.  



I'm not dissing old cars for being heavy.  

I'm saying heavy cars are a dumb way to be sporty, whatever the era it was made.

Depends on what you want. I like the look of the 68 Charger therefore I made it handle the way I wanted it to handle. The performance difference between this car and a smaller sports car isn't enough to worry about IMO. I want something that handles well on my back roads and an occasional track appearance for some all out fun. If you can do the speed limit, and stay in your lane, on country roads in Kentucky you car is pretty damn good at handling. I'm not putting it in an open class racing class so who cares. The cost is about the same as well when you figure in the higher initial cost of the sports car and all the specialty parts are about the same after that.

[Mike DC]

              
I love good-handling Chargers too.  I'm just saying it's still inherently not a very smart way to go fast.  In the Charger's case there is so much else to like about it that we tend to overlook the drawbacks.  

I just think the American sporty/fun car world is very good at forgetting that weight matters.  People gush over Hellcats because they have 707 hp.  But does 500 hp in a 3000-lb car get that kind of headlines?  It's the same power-to-weight ratio, and it would be much more fun. 

[68pplcharger]

Agreed, I've thought about just building a cobra kit car or Shelby Daytona and have the ultimate street car with only 500 hp and a mere 2200 lbs. You can build these for less money than the Charger I just put together. I'm just partial to the old muscle car styling... 

[myk]

Wouldn't mind a Cobra kit car though...

[c00nhunterjoe]

All im saying is, you cant put 20" wheels with a 40 series tire on and expect it to hang the front wheels...... i dont care if its a 70 challenger or a 2015 hellcat.

[Mike DC]

                
True.  Enough tire makes almost anything perform better.  And modern tires are getting bigger & stickier all the time.



As for Cobras/Daytonas, there are so many used ones out there for sale that I would never wanna buy/build a new one.  A fiberglass one would suit me fine.  Cobras are crude & uncomfy cars at best.  

But whatever it is, I would insist on having an independent rearend (most Cobra kits aren't).  Personal preference.  The unsprung weight problems of a solid axle become magnified as the body gets lighter.

[68pplcharger]

               
True.  Enough tire makes almost anything perform better.  And modern tires are getting bigger & stickier all the time.



As for Cobras/Daytonas, there are so many used ones out there for sale that I would never wanna buy/build a new one.  A fiberglass one would suit me fine.  Cobras are crude & uncomfy cars at best.  

But whatever it is, I would insist on having an independent rearend (most Cobra kits aren't).  Personal preference.  The unsprung weight problems of a solid axle become magnified as the body gets lighter.

Agreed

[Kern Dog]

If I were to purposely pick a car to race on a road course, I'd go with something smaller or more modern if I wanted to be competitive. I understand the laws of physics as well as any high school graduate from the 80s.
My point is that I friggin LOVE the looks and power of these cars. I've taken what I know along with the advice of others to make my 45 year old car handle as good or better than our 2015 Challenger R/T with the Super Track Pack package. Clearly, I didn't have to sacrifice good handling just to drive a classic car.
Take a look at the Hotchkis 70 Challenger. It has essentially the same platform as our cars. That car is amazing. There are others: Kevin Westley's 70 Satellite 4 door is internet famous and has been used by The Tire Rack as a test vehicle for high performance tires.

[Brass]

There are others: Kevin Westley's 70 Satellite 4 door is internet famous and has been used by The Tire Rack as a test vehicle for high performance tires.

Tire Rack's driver even said that car is faster than the BMW's they typically use.