Looking to pickup a 1971 Charger Superbee

[71_Charger_R/T]

Rust converters are just fine.  They can be used with no ill effects, but be sure to use it as directed. There is no virtue to a converter on bare, rust free metal but if you have pits that may contain little specs of rust in them, A converter is ideal to use.  All (real) rust converters are mainly phosphoric acid. They react with iron oxide (rust) and change it's properties to iron phosphate which is a rust inhibitor. (think phosphate coated sheetrock screws) It isn't intended to be used on thick scaly rusted metal. Remove the rust to the best of your ability (blasting, sanding, grinding, whatever) then convert to treat any possible remnants of rust. Clean excess off as prescribed in directions, then continue with bodywork or priming as needed.

[Pete in NH]

Rob,

Talk to the people at SPI about using their epoxy over rust converters. I know they have very specific instructions about the use of Ospho. SPI wants you to apply the Ospho and make sure it never dries on the metal surface. Then flush it off with clean water, dry, use then use SPI solvent and water based cleaners before applying the epoxy primer.

How much epoxy primer to buy depends on whether you are doing the inside, outside and bottom surfaces of the car. I like to buy the epoxy as I go. Shipping is free and I always know I have fresh material. The activator does have a shelf life once opened.

I think we are confusing the two types of rust converters. Ospho is really a conversion coating and is not left on the metal surface. Other "converters" seal the rust with a coating that remains on the metal. Conversions coatings are fine if neutralized properly. Coatings that remain behind are a problem in my opinion.

[Dino]

I really would not use any rust converter or Ospho under SPIs epoxy.  The products themselves are fine but I wouldn't combine them.  Personally I would first look into dipping the car and having it E-coated once all the new parts are welded in place and the metalwork is done.  If you have one available near you it may cost in the $3K area but I find it's worth it.  Every nook and ranny of that car will be de-rusted and coated in epoxy. 

Next option would be blasting it but that leaves the insides rusty as they are.  If you blast it then all you need to do is go over the bare metal with 80 grit and shoot the SPI epoxy.  Then you can do your filler work over that and shoot a few more coats of epoxy followed by a high build primer. 

[velrob]

Ya I dont think I want to dump another 3k on top of what's forecasted.

Maybe if the car had less rust sure but i've spent quite a bit on sheet metal and who knows what else will be required.

I will be sand blasting and try to reach as many areas a possible.

Im going to contact Kirkers about their Epoxy and if there are any issues with adhesion to rust converters.

[velrob]

Ok I will be going with SPI

Andy at SPI said to sand down the areas we applied rust converter using 80grit paper then wash with wax and grease remover then apply the epoxy

The epoxy is good for few years so I think I should be done well before that in metal work (hopefully anyways)

I guess I will be working on one section at a time.

On another note regarding frame rails.  I spoke to a friend of mine that owns an auto collission shop.  He mentioned to me to re-attach my fender plus doors before i install my front frame rail to make sure everything lines up?

I remember the right side door wouldnt open but that could probably be adjusted with the hinges as it was slightly touching.       Another person told me to weld a rod going from door jamb to other side?  What other supports should I place besides vertical?

[Dino]

The more metal you remove the more you have to brace what's left.  If the roof is strong then it will hold the frame but it's a good idea to weld a rod from A to B pillar.  Yes mount as much pieces as you can when welding in frame rails so you don't have any nasty surprises after.  When you are ready to remove a piece of sheet metal post a few pictures so we can draw where to add bracing.  It's hard to explain.

SPI is good stuff, you'll like it.  I sprayed mine with a $10 Harbor Freight gun without any issues.

[Dino]

The more metal you remove the more you have to brace what's left.  If the roof is strong then it will hold the frame but it's a good idea to weld a rod from A to B pillar.  Yes mount as much pieces as you can when welding in frame rails so you don't have any nasty surprises after.  When you are ready to remove a piece of sheet metal post a few pictures so we can draw where to add bracing.  It's hard to explain.

SPI is good stuff, you'll like it.  I sprayed mine with a $10 Harbor Freight gun without any issues.

[velrob]

Let me get some pictures what we want to do first

thanks for the response dino.

[velrob]

here is what we want to do first, front frame rail then after that the inner fender

the roof looks strong no rust or anything.

[Dino]

Alright, first things first: do you have a body cart or jig to put the car on?  When the car can sit on the rails that run under the front floor boards and on the rails under the back seat, then you can safely remove the front section of the rail.  With the doors out it sure wouldn't hurt to beef it up by welding a rod, or angle iron from the top of the B pillar to the bottom of the A pillar, kinda like a piece of rollbar.  It'll keep the body aligned and you can still get in and out easily.  Do both sides.

Next you want to remove everything that's bolted to the front so drop the K member and all of the suspension.  You will want to fit the inner fender first to make sure it fits with the old rail and tack it in place.  Self tapping screws and clamps work fine.  Now you have solid markers where the inner fender goes so remove it and remove the rail.  Now put the new rail and inner fender on at the same time and rework the rail until it fits perfectly.  This ensures both pieces are where they belong.  Fit the K member again before welding everything up and measure corner to opposing corner from both sides to make sure everything is centered.  For extra security you can bolt the fenders and hood on to ensure everything lines up.  Now weld everything in place.  Be sure you have cleaned the metal to be welded as good as possible.

[velrob]

Hello Dino.

We were thinking of putting the car back on the hoist and do all the work while its on the hoist (remove front/rear end) and then i would build some angle iron+casters and then weld those onto the car so it can be on the floor again and moved around

Do you think this is ok?

Also for pillar A and B do you mean here?

[Dino]

Yes that'll be fine.  If you're doing extensive frame work then also connect the frame rails.  Be it temporarily or by welding in permanent frame connectors.  You could go as simple as welding an L shaped bar on the bottom of the rails which can be removed once everything is done.  It'll keep the car true while you work on it.

Yeah weld something strong between those two pillars to keep body flex in tow.

[velrob]

The only work we are doing at bottom a this point is front frame rails (we also need to do rear but thats in a week or two).

Besides stand blasting the bottom everything else is above.

A friend of mine was suggesting building supports attached where we can attach casters to later, what do you think? (picture below) He was suggesting welding 2x2 tube with plate at bottom in rear and attach two plates into hinges where door is attached to then 2x2 tube going down with plate at bottom and when lifting the car on hoist using those plates as supports to give car extra security when doing front frame rail.  The rear support brackets would be welded into the rear frame rails after the cross member.  What do you think?  

Also for the L Bracket do you mean this type of thing? (picture #2)

[Dino]

Those stands are fine but be aware that you are basically loading the car as it would sit on jack stands so the body can still flex between them.  If you add support between the rails and/or the pillars then you're good to go.

Sorry, I didn't mean L bracket, I meant 90 degree angle stock to weld between rails and pillars.  Like this:

[velrob]

so if I weld the rods in the pillars like you mentioned before adding those support brackets will be ok ?   

i can add the L brackets as well but im not sure where you mean exactly those should be welded in

you mentioned between the rails but one rail will be removed. we are replacing the entire front rail not partial.  since i have a full piece i might as well replace it all.  i was originally going to chop part off and do it that way but if im doing all this work might as well do the entire run up to the cross member.

as for the stock to use between door pillar I was going to use round tube maybe 1 inch tube or should I use the L stock instead?

[birdsandbees]

Dino is telling you to triangulate the door opens.. and tie front and back frame rails together so the body doesn't sag, if you're not going to put it on a rack.

[velrob]

Thanks for reply.  Still trying to grasp the idea, this is my first time.

I found someone working on a challenger and saw how he reinforced the vehicle and wondering if we did same that would suffice? or to triangulate each door seperately?

pictures below

he then welded some stock going from one end of trunk to other end

[Dino]

Yes you can use the rod instead, or square stock.  It doesn't matter as long as it strong and won't flex.

I'm glad to hear you're doing the entire front rail, I was hoping you would.  Just connect both rails with the round bar or whatever you have behind the crossmember and behind where you will be removing the front rail.  Look at it this way: when you remove a part of the structure then another part of the structure will get a load increase and that's not good, especially with a weakened car.  When you tie in the individual parts of the structure then you disperse the load.  So any type of bracing you do will benefit the overal structure of the car.  At the moemnt the floors are holding the frame rails in place, but if you remove part of it then you risk shifting things.  With rods or stock connecting parts of the frame you will have no such issues.  The bracing in the trunk you posted is a prime example.  Theose gys can remove every piece of floor and skin without them risking flexing the frame.  Without the bracing that would be another story.

[velrob]

Starting to sand blast underneath Surrounded the hoist with paint drop sheets to keep abrasive underneath so we can sweep and filter it for re-use even though the sand blaster kept getting clogged.

Im guessing we should filter the new abrasive also before use.

Picking up a sand blasting cabinet this week for smaller parts.

Anyone ever use the smaller sand blast units like the one in the picture with success?  Not sure if our media is to coarse or what.

[Dino]

Fitler the media and make sure it's bone dry.  When the nozzle clogs put it flat against the frame and squeeze the trigger.  That'll make the media blow back and clear the nozzle.

[velrob]

Ah ill try that blow back method.  Didnt think about that.

We have a larger dryer on the line so that shouldnt be an issue.

I didnt filter the media but I guess I will try that.

[velrob]

Im about to order the epoxy.  Should I epoxy underbody as well?  should I apply anything on top of the epoxy?  like something rubberized or ?

[Pete in NH]

Hi Rob,

Your blaster looks very similar to mine. Your air source needs to be dry or it will spit water into the blaster and clog it up. Likewise as Dino said the media needs to be dry as well. Also, the media you use needs to be sized to the nozzle on your blaster. Mine has a 1/8" nozzle opening and I use fine Black Diamond media with red lettering on the bag. Anything else is too course and it clogs constantly. That coupled with dry air and it doesn't clog very often. You need lots of air and a smaller compressor running constantly will heat up the air and you will get water in it as the air cools. I run my air through a home made condenser  and two dryer filters to get the water out.

Epoxy primer on the under side will work fine. Since it will not be exposed to sun light and U/V it will hold up fine. Some use a urethane bed liner material as an undercoating over the epoxy, very tough stuff and chip resistant. The rubberized stuff tends to trap moisture under it.

[velrob]

hmm this is the water filter I use (picture attached)

I should use more than 1 air dryer in line ?

Im using the largest nozzle that came with it.  These were the sizes:

3.6 mm 0.142 in.   Im using Ebonygrit - Copper Slag  Grit    #55.  Im not sure if its to coarse or not.   How can I tell? 

My compressor is 5HP 2 stage 80 gallon.   What size is your compressor?

I see the abrasive your talking about what grit is that abrasive?  It looks similar to my copper slag

[Pete in NH]

Your compressor is bigger than my 3.5HP 26 gallon one which is how I know about small compressors spitting out lots of warm air and water. Mine barely keeps up with the 1/8" nozzle on my blaster. I just don't do enough of this kind of work to justify the expense of a bigger compressor.

The Black Diamond grit I use is marked: Fine 30/60 grit for 1/8" nozzles. There's nothing special about it except it's locally available. It seems like your copper slag should be about the same and you are using a slightly larger nozzle at .142". The Black Diamond is about the same size as fine beach sand. Black diamond seems to do a good job of controlling grit size, maybe you need to screen your stuff to get the bigger pieces out if that's the problem. Maybe run your material through two layers of overlapping metal window screen.

My air system uses a 50 foot hose to my condenser, which has a filter/ water separator on its output, another 50 foot hose to the blaster which has another filter/separator on its air input. The condenser has a drain on it and I get a fair amount of water out of it and also the first water separator. I have never seen any water at the second filter at the blaster. The condenser is an old well tank with the top cut off and 50 feet of copper 3/8" line coiled inside of it. Filled with cold well water, it does a good job of cooling and drying the air supply.