Here we go again, another school shooting.

[sunfire69]

and you simply can't fix stupid...
http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/06/us/oregon-umpqua-shooting-mother-online-posts/index.html

[Davtona]

The South Carolina shooter was a convicted felon when he bought his gun, they did the background check but after 5 days you can have your gun even if the check isn't back yet....his wasn't so, they let him take it

Its 3 days not 5 days. Couple more days might have avoided that one. Too late now though!

[ws23rt]

The South Carolina shooter was a convicted felon when he bought his gun, they did the background check but after 5 days you can have your gun even if the check isn't back yet....his wasn't so, they let him take it

Its 3 days not 5 days. Couple more days might have avoided that one. Too late now though!

Assuming this is correct it just adds to an understanding about the muck of making laws and rules.---Without compliance/enforcement what's the value of the law.
Lawmakers can wash their hands on an issue by doing their job but if they have no backup nothing is better for their effort.

Their are many hands with blood on them here.--It's sad and frustrating to see everyone with that blood turn to another as being where an answer or solution is.

--- - Yes your honor---

I am a lawmaker and I made a law to make us safe.

I am in law enforcement and I am applying the law as best I can with my resources.

I am a gun vendor and understand the intent of the law but am in compliance.

I am a family member and feel something is wrong but I don't know the difference between what is bad and what is dangerous.

I am a citizen and have learned to mistrust nearly everything I hear.

  Ok mister suicide killer speak.

I am bummed. I don't like my life, my family and friends dismiss me, I am done with living.  It's time to show everyone who I am. The laws and rules give me a way to to show everyone who I am in an easy, provocative and very current way and this is the way it's done these days.

   So  mister suicide killer--why take other lives along with yours?

Duh---You folks don't get it do you?--I am someone. Dying by myself for my self would be a waste of the life I lived.  If I take many with me I will have a place in history. My life will have meant something important.----------


I let my mind wander about this whole situation and the above comes from what I get from the information sources we all see and hear. 

The ultimate truth about this case is not what we have access to but there is much we do know.----It is not a problem to be solved by the stroke of a pen.---

[Mike DC]

  
I still think we need tougher laws against murdering.  That would fix all this.  Our existing anti-murder laws are clearly not doing the job so the answer is to pass more redundant laws.  


This won't cut down on the number of murders that occur.  But it will allow the prosecutors to give people more redundant charges for one crime.  

The defendants who can afford good lawyers will fight it down to one murder charge, but the poor defendants will get longer sentences.  It really helps to take that stupid blindfold off the woman holding the scales of justice.  

[el dub]

No more laws. We have enough on the books already. If you tied all the laws together they would circle the globe about 30 times. The police dept. has their hands tied by so many laws. The laws need to be enforced, that's all. But that will be hard to do as the laws are in favor of the criminals. So......

[JB400]

They need to make the punishment more visible and more unforgettable.  I'd forget banning cruel and unusual punishment.  That's what we need.  For those that don't want to see it, start encouraging these people to not commit such crimes.

[polywideblock]

yeah        hung   in the town square  by the left foot until dead sounds about right , what about stoning   

[ITSA426]

Looks like we can make this an ongoing topic with weekly updates.  Fresh meat today in Arizona.

[Mike DC]

  
The Arizona thing wasn't a mass shooting.  It was an ordinary shooting that happened on school grounds.  



AFAIK public executions never really deterred crime.  

People didn't ever "lose the stomach" for them.  They ended because the public got such a kick out of them that it was disturbing.

[XH29N0G]

I saw it earlier today.  Still a tragic event.

[ITSA426]

Another shooting near TSU.  Only one dead so I guess this is just an ordinary shooting.

[Davtona]

 
The Arizona thing wasn't a mass shooting.  It was an ordinary shooting that happened on school grounds.  

Really!!! Just an ORDINARY shooting on school grounds. Define ordinary because this is not what I would call an ordinary
day in the America I used to know. One shot to death & 3 shot and hospitalized equals 4 which qualifies as a mass shooting.

[Mike DC]

Really!!! Just an ORDINARY shooting on school grounds. Define ordinary because this is not what I would call an ordinary
day in the America I used to know. One shot to death & 3 shot and hospitalized equals 4 which qualifies as a mass shooting.

Was it a lone (or near-lone) nutcase going on a rampage to wipe out a bunch of innocent people?  That's what "mass shooting" usually means these days.  Several people getting shot over a personal dispute of some kind is technically a mass shooting but it's different from the guy in Oregon or the South Carolina church.    



Violent crime rates in the USA have been dropping overall for the last several decades.  The news outlets might tell a different story but they aren't in the business of being honest.  


Meanwhile the US population has doubled in that time.  We hear about all the shootings on the news.  So we should logically be hearing about 2x as many as we did decades ago.  It does not prove the average person is getting any more violent than before.  

The population of the USA has gone up but the size of the country has not.  Rats in a cage normally get more violent as they get packed more densely.  This is a logical reason to expect MORE violence than we are getting.  



Murder, rape, violence, theft, corruption, war . . . the history books & ancient texts are packed full of it.  It goes on every day.  Always has.  It's not morally acceptable but it's very normal.  

[skip68]

Yep.  Since man was created he has murdered, raped and all kinds of evil.  The Arizona shooting was a dispute between several guys and turned into a shooting.  Just happened at a school that's all.   

[XH29N0G]

I thought the purpose of the thread was to say that the Oregon shooting provided fodder for people to argue for gun control and this was not something to be supported. 

I suppose splitting or not splitting shootings into mass and ordinary that just happen to be on school grounds can be done if it suits one or the other argument.  I suppose arguing it is a problem with parents, kids, games, or whatever (including guns) can be done for the same reason.  I look at this and just shake my head. 

I doubt these discussions are effective at changing anyone's mind, but they may serve some sort of venting purpose, and they let others know what some are thinking. 

As I wrote earlier, my parents lost a number of close friends in one of the mass shootings on school grounds and my mom would have been in the thick of it had it occurred on morning when she taught.  I lost a friend to his dad's gun off school grounds.  His parents went out to a party, and he took his dad's prized car for a ride that ended in a wreck.  In a fit of grief, he took his life with his dad's gun.  These things and a few others will always give me something to think about.

The way I see it is that there is a purpose to logging shootings on school grounds (like the two NAU & TSU that were listed yesterday).  We can classify them, discuss them, etc..... For that matter, we can also list the ones that were stopped (like apparently happened in Northern California just after the Oregon shooting).

 

[ITSA426]

The fact that we can consider any shootings "ordinary" shows how callous we've become as a society.  Real people are dead.  They were somebody's parents, siblings or children.  If we can't address the issues related to the causes, maybe we should make an effort to keep score; to at least remember the victims and consider all they could have been.  These are real people.  They didn't die protecting the second amendment.  They deserve better...

[skip68]

I think it's just part of life and bad people do bad things.   Man has always killed man since the beginning of time.  Why does this surprise anyone     we just hear about it more and quicker because of the ease and reach of media.  Sure the methods have changed as does man.

We ARE NOT Borg, we have our own minds and free will and some of those minds are evil, full of anger or hate or just sick.   As long as those minds exist we will see senseless killings.   This generation of sick chooses guns.   The next will probably go back to bombs.    

These guys are all copycat killers because it's the way the other guy did it.  They are followers and weak.

[el dub]

The shooting I'm interested in is the one in Waco, Texas where a bunch of cops killed nine bikers. Four plus months have gone by and no forensic evidence or ballistic evidence has been brought forth. As a matter of fact nothing has been brought forth. And yet no complaints in the news or anywhere else.

[Mike DC]

I didn't even hear about the Texas bikers.  I guess the wrong people are dead for that to remain in the news very long.


The same pessimism that says "murders are everyday occurrences" also says "don't trust this huge corporation to be honest without oversight."  It has its place just like optimism.  IMO it's better not to let our perceptions slide too far away from reality in either direction. 

[ws23rt]

Shootings are one of many ways people are killed every day. --The reasons they are killed has nothing to do with the way they are killed.

I question the mind that thinks the ease at finding or buying a gun will influence that new owner to kill. ---(I want to kill. Thank-whoever- for guns.)

Some may say it is made easy for the troubled mind to kill if they have a gun.---A suicide killer will find a way to their end. If not a gun it will be something else.

As has been said many times before. If guns are further restricted it puts the cuffs on the public to help in time of need.

We are allowed to defend ourselves by arming, so how is restricting that arming helpful? -- If all guns were banished would this discussion be about swords?--

Just imagine how much damage/killings could be done with a sword in a mall (for example). If it was a no sword zone a lot of killing could happen before the killer gets tired.

Clearly their are two sides in this issue and both want the same end. If both sides obsess with fire arms then both sides are ducking the problem.

[ITSA426]

As I recall in the Waco situation, the bikers were well armed but I suspect, as in most civilian situations, the lack of training and discipline under fire left the advantage to the police.  It wasn't a situation where the victims were unarmed and ambushed, as in a classroom.  I haven't heard any more about Waco since a day or two after it happened.  Simply possessing a firearm doesn't make one qualified or competent with it in a hostile situation. Sometimes it makes you a threat to bystanders.  Sometimes, even with training bystanders become victims, as happened recently in New York.

[el dub]

The bystanders were other bikers. There has been no word on who shot who. The bikers posed no threat, it was a sanctioned meet. Till the police showed up. Now there is no evidence (ballistic) or (forensic) that has shown who shot who. Mainly because it was the cops doing the shooting. Sure does seem funny no evidence has been put forth. A regular police cluster fuck. Happens a lot with these paramilitary cops. What I cant figure out is why people related to the bikers aren't making a huge stink about this. Or is it being swept under the rug, and the payoffs are being implemented.

[ITSA426]

Maybe neither side of the Waco shootings wants a thorough investigation done.  There may be other issues no one wants brought to light.  The bystanders I was talking about were shot in New York by police in another incident.  Again I suspect lack of training or discipline leads to these type of incidents.  Plus trigger happy armed people that probably shouldn't have firearms whether employed to carry them or not.  I don't believe a thorough background search violates anybody's constitutional rights if it serves the general welfare of the population.  I feel people have to get used to the idea of reasonable rules to get along in society.  I'm not anti-gun and own several.  I just like to feel the people around me that choose to carry firearms are competent with them.  People that abuse their rights or are irresponsible with them should be dealt with firmly.  I don't mean to drag out some of the same old arguments.

[Mike DC]

Maybe neither side of the Waco shootings wants a thorough investigation done.

Quite likely.  Neither side is quite clean so nobody wants everything aired.  Makes sense. 

The bikers might be less dirty than the cops in this case.  9 people are dead and I can't find reports of the bikers themselves killing more than 2-3 of them.  But the bikers are way more likely to get jailed for whatever they did do. 


As for family members of those arrested & shot, many of them were probably right there in the group.   

[keith88]

This is America don't take my flag(any flag) don't take my guns and we all will get along just fine.....Maybe..i hope