Here we go again, another school shooting.

[ws23rt]

This is the fallacy of background checks as a way to prevent illegal gun possession. If a nut case has no history in his background that would raise a red flag then he can legally purchase all the guns he wants.

It's time to accept the simple fact that some evil people will do evil things that can't be prevented without trouncing on civil liberties.  

I agree .  If we stick to this case (and those like it) we are looking at someone with suicide on their mind. --The trend seems to be young males that have various social troubles that lead to the final solution in their minds.

Identifying someone like this is an impossible task for law enforcement. It is however something that can be spotted by family members armed with knowledge that can come from the media.

IMO frank talk about the details of the lives of these suicide killers is a way of getting to understand who they are before they reach the end of their rope.

It's understandable that mommy will be reluctant to make a call to someone about concern regarding little bobby's behavior. --However-- as these incidents continue to happen it seems that not speaking up with concern will more and more likely put an enabler at risk of becoming an accessory.  And rightly so when considering the lives of the public being at stake.

Let's suppose for the sake of making/remaking a point-- that guns were not available.----A suicidal person at the final point might get in a car and drive into a crowd of people as a way of making the same kind of statement.  In a case like that I think banning (or controlling access to) cars would not be a big or rational topic.  Controlling potential killing tools is a knee jerk copout.

[polywideblock]

                                       so lets say for arguments sake that  someone ran amok in a mall with a chainsaw .
          apart from making a huge mess ,would " they " start calling for a ban on chainsaw  ownership   

[stripedelete]

Did anyone see the CNN interview with the father?   It was all the fault of US gun laws!
Father :   "how was he able to buy 14 guns?"

I don't know but maybe if he would have had a father in his life he wouldn't have been that screwed up.

Guess what?  If you're a guy, your 20's are a tough time.   If you are raised entitled, with unreasonable expectations, never having been told no, never experiencing loss or rejection, AND not having a father around, your 20's are going to be really tough. But, no one can point to this.   It's about how can the government step in.  

If you melted every gun on earth they would running over crowds on the sidewalk or kids on recess.

[Mike DC]

This is the fallacy of background checks as a way to prevent illegal gun possession. If a nut case has no history in his background that would raise a red flag then he can legally purchase all the guns he wants.

It's time to accept the simple fact that some evil people will do evil things that can't be prevented without trouncing on civil liberties.  

They know.  They want to give up this civil liberty.  




Maybe next it will be "Why in the world was that psycho allowed to buy 14 muscle cars?!?" 

[DeltaV]

Another possible twist:
http://www.eutimes.net/2015/10/oregon-mass-shooter-on-terror-list-obama-refused-to-take-from-russia/

[ws23rt]

Another possible twist:
http://www.eutimes.net/2015/10/oregon-mass-shooter-on-terror-list-obama-refused-to-take-from-russia/

This is interesting .  Could there be other "enablers" aside family and friends???

We are sometimes left to wonder how or if we are being protected by those that we hire (vote for) to do that for us.

Is it not the first and primary task of the government to protect/defend us as a group?

[el dub]

That would be the police departments job I believe. The govt is already too big.

If you want good stats go to the fbi website, or the DOJ

All the tools are in place to prevent this from happening. Over 3000 gun laws. They just have to enforce them.

[JB400]

http://news.yahoo.com/four-california-students-arrested-plotting-mass-shooting-175242672.html

[skip68]

  
I haven't heard anything on the news about him being on a terror list and possible ties to Isis.    I think that if it's true the government and general public have more to worry about than gun laws. 

[DeltaV]

That would be the police departments job I believe. The govt is already too big.

If you want good stats go to the fbi website, or the DOJ

All the tools are in place to prevent this from happening. Over 3000 gun laws. They just have to enforce them.

Also:
http://www.gunlaws.com/GunshotDemographics.htm

[ws23rt]

 
I haven't heard anything on the news about him being on a terror list and possible ties to Isis.    I think that if it's true the government and general public have more to worry about than gun laws.  

That is interesting. ---Could it be that the gov. and the media are very much like those in that room with the shooter?? -- To freeze and panic? --To wait for others to grab their hand or cover them with their body to save them?

I would like to believe that we are protected by decisive practical thinking people.---When we hear about those that jump in to help when needed it makes me dream about that sort helping all of us with doing the right thing as the --only-- motivation.

All I got from the top and the media is "stuff happens" (translation = shit happens). This is unacceptable as a response!!

We need hero types at the top. --Our next door neighbor may be a nice guy that everyone likes but that's not enough to react properly on everyone's behalf when needed.

To all voters out there.---Please pay attention to who you vote for and why you vote for them. Pretty people that speak nice are not what we need to keep us safe or (at least) lead in the direction of greater understanding of our vulnerabilities.

BTW --The smug smile I see on the news seems very out of place and offensively inappropriate when we are hurting for a way forward.

[Mike DC]

                                     
Why didn't the govt see 9/11 coming when they had the evidence?

It's because they get mountains of info from sources all the time.  Some of it is dis-info attempting to manipulate them if they do trust it.  The whole trick of the game is the filtering & connections & interpretation.



Should Obama have accepted a Russian terrorist list?  
Would we have seen this guy coming and prevented the whole tragedy?  

I don't know.  But either way I doubt it was that simple.

[ws23rt]

                 
Ask the govt why they didn't see 9/11 coming when they had the evidence.  They will explain that they get mountains of info from sources all the time.  Some of it is dis-info and they get manipulated if they do trust it.  The whole trick of the game is the filtering & connections & interpretation.



Should Obama have accepted a Russian terrorist list?  
Would we have seen this guy coming and prevented the whole tragedy?  

I don't know.  But either way I doubt it was that simple.

There is no question about this being simple. It is not.
The leaders and the media tell us stuff that (perhaps) they hope will move us from this day to the next. I get that something needs to be said from them but the same chatter we expect is all we hear.

When we feel empty from what is said by those that lead, where does that leave us?

If mountains of information is overwhelming than this is a place for attention.

BTW I keep including the media in my responses because it does play a big role in how voters are influenced. Perhaps the biggest role.   Voter beware.

[Mike DC]

  
I guess I just don't think the elected officials can do much about this stuff.  

They can ban guns but they can't ban psychos.  
They can follow the known terrorists but many of these shooters aren't even being spotted by their friends & family.



The mainstream corporate news sources seem like such a clusterfuck of sensationalism that I don't even think much about it.   I'm just happy when they appear to be politically inert and not purposely manipulating in some way.

Even if we somehow got them to tone it down on TV, it won't control the internet.  Individually, our Google results are being skewed towards our existing political views.  It drives everyone farther in whatever extreme direction they started leaning, including the mass shooters.  




"You're entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts" is an ever-increasing problem.  

Right now there is a story going around (the net) that CNN photoshopped the Oregon shooter into a Caucasian.  Juicy conspiracy idea - except the original photoshop exposure story lacks any links to CNN actually airing the altered pic.  Nobody else can seem to find an instance of it either.  As far as I can tell the altered pic story appears to be made up out of thin air.  (The pic exists but it was never on CNN.)  But the truth of it hardly matters anymore.  

[sunfire69]

Good Point...it's hard to know what to believe anymore. I heard the one about the watch list but after poking around I found this
https://www.illwriteit.com/investigation-chris-harper-mercer-not-on-terror-watch-list/
Now...can you believe this... who knows...

[skip68]

You know, one thing I'd like to know is how many of these gunmen school killers were bullied when they were younger?   Just curious is all.   Far as not being spotted by family or friends I'm not buying it.   The signs are there, they just don't want to believe or think that their child is capable of something like this.  They don't want to overreact.   Fully understandable.   But, if your child fits the stereotype profile as a loner, depression, problems with others, and a big interest with guns you'd better get involved with his life.   Start checking his social media and anything else.   People don't wanna know or think that their own child is sick.   Now days the bullying doesn't stop at the schoolyard.   It's in our homes on social media 24/7 and with multiple bullies from all over.  
I'm not saying this is necessarily the case but I'm betting that it's an added fuel to the fire.  

[el dub]

there is no way these effed up people could make it through school without the teachers noticing. So blame the teachers for not saying anything, not the parents, although I blame the parents also. And the medical profession, whom I also blame as the parents had to notice their kids effed up behavior and sent them to docs to get some meds. No way these people should have gotten clear of some kind of authority
    And there is know way that nobody knew these are effed up people. There are to many observers as you go through life that notice you.

[Mike DC]

You can't observe 30 random high school kids for an hour without seeing some trouble signs.  But which ones?  The problem is that it's extremely common for the age. 

Normal is not the same thing as healthy.  Teenagers acting antisocial & potentially dangerous?  It's not very healthy, but it is very normal.


I went to school with some OBVIOUSLY psychopathic &  dangerous kids.  None of them became famous school shooters.   

[el dub]

yet

[skip68]

See that's the problem like Mike said.   You could round up thousands of outcast students but which one is the one that's going to pull a trigger?       
Parents and schools need to pay closer attention to the loners and that's a start. 

[XH29N0G]

Anyone been tracking this one: 

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/05/us/4-students-arrested-in-northern-california-suspected-of-plotting-killings-in-high-school.html?_r=0 

didn't have guns and not a loner.

[sunfire69]

No you can't watch them all....but...
in the case of the Colorado Theater shooter he was seeing the school Psychiatrist  and at one point she said she was afraid of him and felt he was a danger but never never reported it...
in New Town the shooter was known to be mentaly ill and spend a lot of time in first person shooter games that's why his mom bought him guns that they took shooting...but she failed to secure them from him when not supervised....
The Virginia Tech shooter had been arrested before and had an evaluation and found to be "unstable" but the judge chose not to sentence him to court ordered psychiatric care because he didn't want to stigmatize him ....
The South Carolina shooter was a convicted felon when he bought his gun, they did the background check but after 5 days you can have your gun even if the check isn't back yet....his wasn't so, they let him take it.....the background check is grossly underfunded it's a case of a law was passed but not given the funds to work...
We have plenty of laws if they had been followed as they should be 3 of these shootings might not have happened...in the case of New Town the mother exercised very poor judgement but you can't go after her because she was the first one he killed....

[skip68]

Excellent points sunfire.   

[Mike DC]

                    
Yeah, true dat.  Half these shootings were preventable with existing laws & guidelines, if they had been followed.


But the deeper issue is how we deal with mental issues.  If there is a lot of fear & stigma about it, then docs & judges worry about labeling people even when they should intervene.  But if there isn't enough fear & stigma then people don't take the clear trouble signs seriously enough.  It's problematic either way.  



One (out of several) motivations of the Columbine kids was to rebel against the social pressure to be clean-cut popular types.  But years later, other kids said after the shooting it made that pressure 10x worse than before.  Now the weird kids weren't just weird, they were treated as potentially dangerous.

Not that I'm defending those two.  IMO they were some of the least sympathetic mass shooters on the whole list.

 

[skip68]

It's a delicate subject for sure.  Kinda a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. 
If you report a outcast student then he's branded even though he might never do something.  That branding alone might be the stressor to push him over the edge that he may not have gone.   
But if the signs are there and you don't say anything and he does something it's your fault for not coming forward.   

This is just a mess and really no good solution at this point.   Unless we find ways to find and treat these sick individuals sooner and younger.   I just don't know.