What's all the fuss over "Numbers Matching" after rebuild ?

[BLK 68 R/T]

This was started by the Corvette crowd many years ago and has since been picked up by the other makes.  The whole numbers matching thing is really misleading in that all cars as old as musclecars are and still on the road have had parts changed out in some form or another.  It would seem as if the only truly numbers matching car would be of the "Barn Find" variety. But, after thirty-plus years....it wouldn't be drivable unless somethings were changed and or replaced. It's really become more of a buzz word used to increase the asking price at one of the major auto auctions.  If it looks original who cares whats inside the engine or for that matter whats underneath so long as it's nothing exotic.

Bottomline:  Do you want a car to drive, or one that stays in the garage that you get to polish on weekend.....

I agree.

Matching #s does not refer just to the motor and transmission....for a car to be truly #s matching it has to have all components date coded correct and stamped with the Chrysler part #, not just the 3 main ones - engine, trans, rear end.
Wiper motor, fan blade, fuel pump, alternator, voltage reg, hoses, spark plug wires, master cylinder, brake booster, wheels, tires....and the list goes on to have a true #s matching car.

[cbrestorations]

the internals of an engine are wearable parts, who cares if it has the original front timing seal, or the original valve stem seals....no one, but people do care if it has the numbers matching block and trans that the car was born with. your original engine will NOT out perform a rebuilt one with modern upgrades as in camshaft, valve job and moly rings, with everything else oem. unless you have magic fairy dust springled over ur oem non rebuilt engine, the spec back then just dont compare to whats available now.

[Challenger340]

I for one never knew that there were no pistons that are correct for a 440 HP engine for a lot of years. I would guess most people who have their engines rebuilt don't know it either. i would also guess that unless a machine shop specializes Mopar engines, they may not know it either.
With that being said,
I would like a "recipe" to rebuild a '69 440 HP to achieve the stock factory specs. (or better). So tell me what pistons (Brand and part number) would you use. How about cam, head gaskets, etc. Assume the cast iron head will be used. Also if you don't like to use a cast iron head and would rather use an alum. head, please specify the head and all the other parts necessary to get to the factory HP and torque specs (or better).
Thank you.
John

Good question

You've got my attention as well...

First off,
I have already posted BOTH the Build recipe and Dyno test for the aluminum Headed version under the "lowly 440" thread.... just look at the 274H equipped "stealth" Head Engine to maintain "stock" appearances.
Granted... it is a bit "more" than stock with 486 hp and over 550 Ft/Lbs ? I think ? I can't remember ? But that's about as BASIC as it gets in a cheap build but PAYING ATTENTION to parts internally, good idle, good vacuum, good driveability, etc., etc.
see here;
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,106687.25.html


And for the CAST IRON HEADED VERSION...
I've already done that as well, but I am unsure if posted it here or not ?
I couldn't find it, so I will have to go dig out the specs and Dyno Sheet to post up... stay tuned.
But from memory.... it was a 1970 440 - 6 pack 2843906 iron-headed deal, stock valves, "Numbers Matching" Block, using the same 274H camshaft, through hp manifolds, on 91 Octane made 430 hp with 515 Ft/Lbs.
That would be a good one here, because the stock 4 bbl manifold would dump it right down around the 400/500 mark.

But my point being....
it's all doable, if guys would just spend 1/100th the effort educating themselves on their engines....... that they spend ensuring their "restorations" everywhere else on the car are correct ?



   

[Challenger340]

the internals of an engine are wearable parts, who cares if it has the original front timing seal, or the original valve stem seals....no one, but people do care if it has the numbers matching block and trans that the car was born with. your original engine will NOT out perform a rebuilt one with modern upgrades as in camshaft, valve job and moly rings, with everything else oem. unless you have magic fairy dust springled over ur oem non rebuilt engine, the spec back then just dont compare to whats available now.

granted,
the original oem engines will not outperform engines built today using todays technology "if".... and it's a BIG question mark, people will educate themselves and APPLY those new technologies.
Which,
seems to be the whole problem when people default to wanting their 440's rebuild to "stock specs"... not realizing that those so-called "stock specs" are indeed the ANCIENT technologies, and even WORSE parts that were originally provided oem.
makes NO sense to me....
spend literally 10's of thousands of dollars... correct this.. correct that... BETTER than original doing body restorations ?
then,
when it comes to doing their engines.... default to "stock specs" ? Not even bothering to educate themselves of what they are implementing, as in GARBAGE !

[Lennard]

But my point being....
it's all doable, if guys would just spend 1/100th the effort educating themselves on their engines....... that they spend ensuring their "restorations" everywhere else on the car are correct ?

But you're the only one that cares!

[HeavyFuel]

Like the title says, what is all the fuss over 440 powered MuscleCars being "Numbers Matching" ?
especially,
once the Engines have been rebuilt, even to so-called "stock specs" ?

When,
there has been NO replacement cast Piston available for 35 years to actually accomplish a "stock specs" 1968-1970 440 magnum rebuild process ?
meaning,
the vast majority of those 440's have been DE-Nutted into smog motors by using 1.99" or even worse 1.92" Compression Distance Pistons .... so WHO REALLY CARES if they are original ?, because the owners(without documentation of the parts used in the engine rebuild ?), are driving a de-valued musclecar that's been RUINED for the Original Performance !

My point being, advertisements or owner claims of "numbers matching" are absolutely meaningless, unless said owner or person claiming said "special status" to the original  performance connotation therein, can back up that the original correct performance of the 1968-1970 440 "magnum" engine was retained somehow during the engine rebuilding process ?

I am getting really tired, of literally blowing the doors off $100K "numbers matching" restorations, with my bone-stock UN-touched and UN-rebuilt 135K mileage 1969 440-4 bbl R/T. The latest sad story was a 1970 GTX track-pack 440-6pk 4 spd car, 3.54 dana, Numbers matching, rebuilt to "stock specs".
I left the Charger in "D" on the column shift ?  NOT even a contest !

But somehow....
that GTX is considered by local mopar authorities as one of the "premier" concourse restored highly optioned examples in existence ? and bound to command very high $ value at sale.
to me...it is just a ruined musclecar that can't get out of it's own way ?   albeit.... very "pretty", an embarrassment to it's original badging.

By the looks of your engine build thread, it certainly appears that you know your stuff....but those are some pretty mean things to say about another guy's car.

My engine/trans (numbers matching) are rebuilt to 'stock 440 HP specs' with few period correct pieces, and get my car from A to B just fine.  My car isn't the fastest on the road, far from it.  I suppose it's 'de-nutted' by your standards.

But a lot of my blood, sweat and tears went into it's restoration, and if somebody called it an 'embarrassment' to my face, I'd consider punching them in the mouth.  

[John_Kunkel]

I could give a rats ass about numbers on my own junk.

Me too. The only time "numbers matching" becomes a real issue is when the car is for sale and the seller wants top buck...otherwise it's just bragging rights. (whip it out  )

[Mike DC]

  
Restoration standards have never been very accurate.  The hobby cares way too much about some things and not nearly enough about others.


We tear our hair out over little stuff like the plating colors on nuts & bolts under the hood . . . but if the interior color shade is visibly wrong on the same car it hardly registers.

There are whole books written about the correct bare-metal finishes on the suspension parts . . . but people expect the exterior body paint to be twice as glossy as the factory ever built anything.

People cringe at the sight of a slightly wavy panel, or uneven panel alignment . . . but I routinely see scary-looking welds on the panels of $100,000 cars.  

[tan top]

 not wanting to hijack this thread    ,


hello & welcome Alec 

'Numbers matching'  IMO  People like myself respect matching numbers simply because they know the car has the original motor and trany.  Like the fender tag as well, you can see if the car matches all the factory codes. My 69 RT is matching, but that has nothing to do with how the engine is built. Matching numbers means the serial number on the block and trany[in 69 anyway] are the same as the last 8 nums in the VIN. NOTHING MORE NOTHING LESS.
    No matter what let;s all enjoy and pound on our Chargers.
           Alec

  hope you don't mind me asking  , is that the original color combo of your charger ? 

[Dino]

After reading this thread I walked out into the garage and kissed my mutt, nothing matching Charger.  And two things came to mind: I wouldn't trade this car for any other, in the world... and I really need to wash the grease off before kissing it.   

[1974dodgecharger]

Im still laughing at all the posts...you guys take it all too serious...just relax...who cares what others say damn it....just relax....here look at mine and GET MAD!!!  Good lawd seems all of a sudden everyone likes my car now when everyone used to hate the big rims...HELL EVEN COOTER SAID IT WAS BADASS 

[dual fours]

If my friends would have told me in 1977 " Bob, you should not race the Charger like you do against the street rats, you'll break something, it will be worth more $ if it has matching numbers. Delete all the memories you have of the street scenes back then, forget they even happened. You should treat her like the lady she is, you know, a parking lot Pilgrim." Back then I'd say "No way, I bought her to run the piss out of her Thursday Friday and Saturday nights , put her away wet early on Sunday morning, have the hood up on her Monday thru Wednesday and then repeat." If you'd ask me to trade those memory's for a numbers matching Charger, I'd say "bite me", in a nice way. Yes, I do respect the number's matching cars, if your Muscle car got though life with what it was born with, your a lucky owner. I'm lucky to still have the memories and my filthy girl. She's on her way to roadworthiness, old school style.
The attached four photos show her current state, the last one shows late 70's early 80's vintage asphalt melted to her rear quarters from stoplight burnouts.  

[1974dodgecharger]

and still looks more beautiful than modern cars 

[HPP]

Im still laughing at all the posts...you guys take it all too serious...just relax...who cares what others say damn it....just relax....

X2. Who cares if their stock spec rebuild is lesser than it was originally. Obviously they aren't too concerned about it or they would have taken more time with it to increase its output while still looking stock. The VAST majority of these cars never get the throttle hammered down in anger, so its all just mental gymnastics anyway.

[6spd68]

I've never been a numbers matching guy, as I enjoy the driving experience more than talking about my car to others.  I'll likely stay away from shows for the most part as well.  When it comes time to sell, it's a 318 car, and anyone who puts up a fuss for a numbers matching 318 car is not worth the time in the first place. 

[HeavyFuel]

"Numbers matching" and "stock specs" have nothing to do with each other. You can build a 500-inch stroker motor in a numbers matching block and it doesn't affect the "numbers matching" status.

I disagree, as it relates to perceptions for many, from those individuals who would claim "stock specs" in regards to rebuilding an original "numbers matching" 440 Block .... that was once
375hp 480 ft/lb Torque from factory delivered in a musclecar, then, by rebuilding it with the wrong Pistons, have turned it into a 230 hp smogger motor[/b], but still cling to the numbers matching ? as some connotation to "correct" original performance ?

A gutless rebuild..... is a gutless rebuild..... no matter the "numbers" stamped on the side of the block ?
and  "stock specs" for the 1968-1970 375 hp 480 ft/lbs 440 version,  are quite different from the 1973 230 hp 410 ft.lb version  

Just my opinion, but I don't think "numbers matching" means squat in a musclecar engine block, it's just a chunk of iron after-all ? unless, it is in it's "original" UN-altered, UN-rebuilt configuration, or, it has been rebuilt to those specs for it's year.

357 hp seems like a respectable number.

[Cncguy]

I would like my Charger to be matching numbers, It's an RT though. I plan on driving with or with the matching numbers. Still hopeful for a reunion of the original drive train.

[Challenger340]

"Numbers matching" and "stock specs" have nothing to do with each other. You can build a 500-inch stroker motor in a numbers matching block and it doesn't affect the "numbers matching" status.

I disagree, as it relates to perceptions for many, from those individuals who would claim "stock specs" in regards to rebuilding an original "numbers matching" 440 Block .... that was once
375hp 480 ft/lb Torque from factory delivered in a musclecar, then, by rebuilding it with the wrong Pistons, have turned it into a 230 hp smogger motor[/b], but still cling to the numbers matching ? as some connotation to "correct" original performance ?

A gutless rebuild..... is a gutless rebuild..... no matter the "numbers" stamped on the side of the block ?
and  "stock specs" for the 1968-1970 375 hp 480 ft/lbs 440 version,  are quite different from the 1973 230 hp 410 ft.lb version  

Just my opinion, but I don't think "numbers matching" means squat in a musclecar engine block, it's just a chunk of iron after-all ? unless, it is in it's "original" UN-altered, UN-rebuilt configuration, or, it has been rebuilt to those specs for it's year.

357 hp seems like a respectable number.

It would be IF that is what it is ?
But,
the above calculator, is only as good as the imputs, which obviously here, there are none.
For example:
The "375 hp" imput on the 10:1 cylinder pressure, assumes a "generic" Intake Valve ABDC closing point, so it can calculate very strictly ONLY on the effect the lower pressure has on V.E. to hp.
Basically, being such a simplified tool, it assumes "everything else being equal", which is rarely the case because of so many other factors, especially in engine dynamics where everything affects EVERYTHING else.

Try many of the other Wallace calculators if you still believe(or want to believe ?) the 357 hp ?
The problem being....
you probably won't have sufficient imputs to be able to use them correctly, which and no offense here, just stating fact.... is exactly my point regarding most owners who spend many thousands restoring a very beautiful car(and yours is),
but,
can't or won't spend even the "time" which costs nothing.... to educate or "plan" an Engine rebuild from a position of knowledge for best results ?
So be honest...
what's your Camshaft Intake Valve Closing point on your "stock 440 hp spec" Engine ? Where was it degree'd in at ?
What are the actual CC and Downfill Volumes ?
and go here...
and tell me the REAL power ?
http://www.wallaceracing.com/cr_test2.php
http://www.wallaceracing.com/dynamic-cr.php
http://www.wallaceracing.com/camcalc.php

[Challenger340]

I agree that "numbers matching" does indeed command a premium price at sale with the original drivetrain... although, for the life of me as a Performance Engine Builder familiar with the quality of some of the generic engine "rebuilds" being done on the "numbers" engines..... I have no idea WHY ?
Just makes no sense to me !
Take what was originally from factory a 375 hp 440 engine with 480 ft/lbs of Torque..... delivered in a musclecar...
and,
rebuild it to "stock specs"((for a 1972 to 1978 smog engine).... and promptly turn it into 230 hp terd ?

Just my opinion(and I am getting HAMMERED for it here).... but what the fawk is the point in doing THAT ?, or paying a price premium for "numbers matching" drivetrain in a factory musclecar that has been DE-nutted into a terd ?
WHO CARES what number is on the Block at that point ?

There I go again.... let the slaughter begin !

My apologies up front to anyone offended.... no offense intended, just saying, if your intent is to acquire "numbers matching" and you are willing to pay a premium for it, and the engine has been "rebuilt"... to so-called "stock specs"... be forewarned.....
unless the seller can provide an actual  blueprint sheet with details and part #'s of parts used... due to the lack of correct generic piece availability or knowledge on WHAT these Engines were originally from factory(especially the 68-70 440 magnums), there is a good chance it make be a dawg performance-wise, albeit, with pretty "numbers" on the side of the Block.

If you don't care about the original "performance" being intact in your musclecar acquisition... it is not at all important to you, then forget everything I have just written, my apologies, carry on.

[HeavyFuel]

340...

You make a good case and your points are well taken.   

I could have been more informed when my engine was being rebuilt, but in defense...I tried to educate myself.   My main fault was just as you point out, placing a little too much faith in the engine shop.

As a non-professional car restorer/mechanic, I get by the best I can.....and likely this is the case for many hobbyists.

Looking at the list of parts that went into my build....it is laughable.....but with good intentions:

Cast pistons, ch=1.990, compression stated at 9.4:1.
MP purple shaft 6 pack cam, 3 bolt, designed for resto of '69 440 HP.
Cloyes Original True Roller Timing Set; w/ 3 Bolt Cam
Comp valve springs
Original iron heads with a valve job
Harmonic Balancer, SFI, Internal Balance
CH4B intake
TTI exhaust, 2.5"
Converted to MP electronic ignition (with a recent change to Firecore)

Pretty funny......but I did the best I could.   In retrospect, the 71,000 original mile engine should have been left alone, huh?

The big question now, where do I go from here?

[2592 creston]

  numbers matching = $$$$$

[hemigeno]

Not every OE Gold car has been "de-nutted", nor does everyone doing such a restoration pay zero attention to the proper rebuilding of an engine or component specification.

Bone stock (appearing) 1969 440 - with dyno results

I'll plead the 5th Amendment's protection against self-incrimination on its most recent MPH / top speed run, however.  Let's just say it runs really, really well.   




Challenger340, point taken though.

[wingcar]

If your car is not numbers matching it is worth nothing and is not worth owning......so as a service to all those unfortunates that own such cars....I will tow (drive) them away for free!

    

(On another note.....just enjoy what you have whether it's numbers matching or not....who cares as long as you enjoy owning it....and if you don't, see above) 

[Challenger340]

340...

You make a good case and your points are well taken.    

I could have been more informed when my engine was being rebuilt, but in defense...I tried to educate myself.   My main fault was just as you point out, placing a little too much faith in the engine shop.

As a non-professional car restorer/mechanic, I get by the best I can.....and likely this is the case for many hobbyists.

Looking at the list of parts that went into my build....it is laughable.....but with good intentions:

Cast pistons, ch=1.990, compression stated at 9.4:1.
MP purple shaft 6 pack cam, 3 bolt, designed for resto of '69 440 HP.
Cloyes Original True Roller Timing Set; w/ 3 Bolt Cam
Comp valve springs
Original iron heads with a valve job
Harmonic Balancer, SFI, Internal Balance
CH4B intake
TTI exhaust, 2.5"
Converted to MP electronic ignition (with a recent change to Firecore)

Pretty funny......but I did the best I could.   In retrospect, the 71,000 original mile engine should have been left alone, huh?

The big question now, where do I go from here?

Probably more like 8.5:1 with that "stated" 9.4:1 piston at the 1.99" height ?    
If you are serious ? you could consider.....
* Mill about .050" off the 2843906 open chamber Heads ? and remember to maintain Intake Manifold fit you need to take about the same off each intake face side of the head as well ?
The actual spec is that for each .010" milled off the bottom of the Head, you need to take .012" off where the intake sits on the head(port face), but .010/.010 works fine, and the V/cover gasket sealing surface will be getting thin anyways ?
But that .050" equals about 5 X the 2.4 CC's per .010" or 12 CC's to get you up to the actual 9.4:1(108 clearance volume, by getting the Heads down to 76-78 or thereabouts)
* buy .050" shorter pushrods if you are using stock non-adjustable Rockers to maintain Lifter preload(the stock length will be too long).

We did it for a few guys years ago who had unknowingly rebuilt with those pistons, not for the faint of heart as it gets thinner where the valve Cover gasket seals on the intake face.... but the even 1 point C.R. increase from down there in mid 8's C.R., up to the mid 9's C.R. makes a dramatic difference in power on long rod ratio engines like the 440. You won't believe it's the same engine !

The other option that many people do, is switch to closed chamber heads like the 64-66 383 engine #2406516 closed chamber castings ?
But those only have the smaller 1.60" exhaust valve which shuts down the 440(needs the 1.74" exhaust valve), so by the time you rebuild, add bigger valves, etc., etc., then it's $$ ? And even these can need "some" milling to get down to 76-78 CC's.

[A12 Superbee]

I think the only cars where numbers matching are important are those commanding premium prices and museum exhibits, because if you keep driving these cars the way they were meant to be driven, one day they will not be numbers matching!

I own a A12 4 speed Superbee coupe, which I like to remind my mates that own Chargers, is rarer than a Dodge Daytona and it has a non numbers matching engine and trans. Do I see that as a bad thing in a factory built drag car............hmmm......no!

Seriously, if anyones getting around in an all numbers matching A12 then i'd say that car has not lived! Maybe it was used to pick up the groceries or get the kids to/from school, but these cars are now edging close to 50 years old and tho they were built to last, they sure weren't expected to get this old without parts breaking.

I see my non-numbers parts as badges of honor. This car was raced, it was flogged, it must have been chewing up Camaro's and Mustangs all over the US of A for near on 40 years, god bless it's non-numbers matching identity, I could'nt care less. Surely we didn't buy these cars to keep them in cocoons?

Get em out, don't be scared to break em, just don't abuse the things, otherwise, when you take your beast out with it's matching numbers you'll be worrying about evey noise or bad gear change.