What's all the fuss over "Numbers Matching" after rebuild ?

[Challenger340]

 

[myk]

Very simple, really.  We're talking about two groups of people: the "show" and the "go" crowd.  If an owner's primary goal is to present an historical representation, then it doesn't really matter what's inside the drivetrain or how lousy it runs (if it even runs at all), as long as all of the numbers match on the outside.  Personally, the only numbers I care to match are the 0-60, 0-100, HP/TQ, 1/4, 1/8, and other such related numbers from when these cars were new. But hey, to each their own.  While people like myself beat on our cars to their eventual deaths, it's nice to know that there are people out there trying to preserve the Charger's history.  Yes, thanks to Ghoste I've evolved in my thinking...   

[303 Mopar]

   And the "show" crowd usually only loads and unloads their cars, so does it really matter? 

[polywideblock]

so for 35 years people have been rebuilding their engines , thinking they were putting it back to stock when they aren't   

                                                                         that's a sh*tload of motors 

                     could it be that these motors are now considered the " standard " by which "stock" motors are  judged 

[John_Kunkel]

"Numbers matching" and "stock specs" have nothing to do with each other. You can build a 500-inch stroker motor in a numbers matching block and it doesn't affect the "numbers matching" status.

[Lennard]

"Numbers matching" and "stock specs" have nothing to do with each other. You can build a 500-inch stroker motor in a numbers matching block and it doesn't affect the "numbers matching" status.

Great explanation.

[tiki]

Thats what I did with mine stroked it out to 500,what a beast!!!

[Mopar Nut]

Thats what I did with mine stroked it out to 500,what a beast!!!

[Homerr]

We get it Chally, your car is better.   

[Kern Dog]

When these cars started to become valuable, certain industry "buzz words" became popular. "Matching numbers" was just another feature to add value to a car. Funny how a car can be rusted through on every panel, restored after spending $50,000 and a buyer cares more about it being "matching numbers" than it having a structurally sound chassis and body.

I find it the sign of an uneducated dork when I read or hear someone refer to a slant six or 318 car as "Numbers matching". Come on, man...Call it an original engine at best! A slant six car is the absolute least desireable of any engine available in any Mopar, yet craigslist is chock full of idiots bragging about their "rare" 74 Dodge Dart 4 door with the "matching numbers" 225 slant six.

Nothing wrong with slanty cars, 318 cars either. Its just when people act the parrot and use terminology that doesn't apply, they look silly. We all remember the uncool guys from school that wanted to fit in: They'd use words and phrases that didn't fit the conversation or didn't sound right coming from them.

I think "Date Coded" sounds pretty cool though. Regardless, I have a 1974 440 block in my 70 Charger. I care more about performance than originality.

[RallyeMike]

I am getting really tired, of literally blowing the doors off $100K "numbers matching" restorations, with my bone-stock UN-touched and UN-rebuilt 135K mileage 1969 440-4 bbl R/T
The latest sad story was a 1970 GTX track-pack 440-6pk 4 spd car, 3.54 dana, Numbers matching, rebuilt to "stock specs".
I left the Charger in "D" on the column shift ?
NOT even a contest !

Ya, ya, ya we get it. Yer also hung like a horse and can drink us all under the table   

I'm actually in your court. I could give a rats ass about numbers on my own junk. I just wanna slide through some corners in an obnoxiously loud hot rod. I can still recognize though, that there's more than one way to appreciate this hobby and it's equal (and maybe even better) than how I enjoy it.

[Brock Lee]

I understand both sides and fit somewhere in the middle.

I appreciate people are preserving these cars in a state that is as close to how they looked factory as possible. Why? Because that is how I remember them being on the roads. Most guys that are buying these days never lived in a time these were daily drivers.

I appreciate the upgrades and personalizing others do. I for one do not sweat certain little things. Like I don't care if my master cylinder looks factory. But for some strange reason I like the car to have certain things that remind me of when I was a kid. I have a stock AM/FM radio. Stock seats, etc.

[ws23rt]

I'm in the camp of those that like an old car to be the old car it was.-- And be able to drive it too---

Like most of us (with youthful impairment?) our beginning interest started from memories of cars we had and the days we had them.

As we get used to the newer stuff I get the temptation to mix the two. But when we do that we compromise both-- IMO.

[1974dodgecharger]

when I purchase a car im more worried about the original, 'air' in the tires....I would pay someone an extra 25k for a car....

[Challenger340]

[Challenger340]

[Lennard]

 

[1974dodgecharger]

We get it Chally, your car is better.   

Nope, it's old and probably getting somewhat tired, but still runs good.
which,
makes blowing the doors off $100K "Number matching" concourse restored so-called "musclecars" even worse !
Spend all that money making a car that pretty ? then rebuild the "numbers matching" 375 hp 440 Engine into a 230hp dawg ? makes no sense to me !

because they can? 

to each his own right?

People keep telling me my car is a 440 when its a 383 

people complain my car overheats because it hits 200 sitting in AZ heat at 110 plus over 3 hours 

cant forget rims are too big 

also tell me my paint sucks 

car has issues period 

[ws23rt]

"Numbers matching" and "stock specs" have nothing to do with each other. You can build a 500-inch stroker motor in a numbers matching block and it doesn't affect the "numbers matching" status.

  I have never thought about "stock specs" as being something one is referring to when they use the term "numbers matching".

An old motor in a survivor with the vin. stamp on it is clearly a "numbers matching" motor even though it is out of spec because it's an old motor.

[66FBCharger]

I for one never knew that there were no pistons that are correct for a 440 HP engine for a lot of years. I would guess most people who have their engines rebuilt don't know it either. i would also guess that unless a machine shop specializes Mopar engines, they may not know it either.
With that being said,
I would like a "recipe" to rebuild a '69 440 HP to achieve the stock factory specs. (or better). So tell me what pistons (Brand and part number) would you use. How about cam, head gaskets, etc. Assume the cast iron head will be used. Also if you don't like to use a cast iron head and would rather use an alum. head, please specify the head and all the other parts necessary to get to the factory HP and torque specs (or better).
Thank you.
John

[70 sublime]

I for one never knew that there were no pistons that are correct for a 440 HP engine for a lot of years. I would guess most people who have their engines rebuilt don't know it either. i would also guess that unless a machine shop specializes Mopar engines, they may not know it either.
With that being said,
I would like a "recipe" to rebuild a '69 440 HP to achieve the stock factory specs. (or better). So tell me what pistons (Brand and part number) would you use. How about cam, head gaskets, etc. Assume the cast iron head will be used. Also if you don't like to use a cast iron head and would rather use an alum. head, please specify the head and all the other parts necessary to get to the factory HP and torque specs (or better).
Thank you.
John

Good question

[wingcar]

This was started by the Corvette crowd many years ago and has since been picked up by the other makes.  The whole numbers matching thing is really misleading in that all cars as old as musclecars are and still on the road have had parts changed out in some form or another.  It would seem as if the only truly numbers matching car would be of the "Barn Find" variety. But, after thirty-plus years....it wouldn't be drivable unless somethings were changed and or replaced. It's really become more of a buzz word used to increase the asking price at one of the major auto auctions.  If it looks original who cares whats inside the engine or for that matter whats underneath so long as it's nothing exotic.

Bottomline:  Do you want a car to drive, or one that stays in the garage that you get to polish on weekend.....

[don duick]

I rebuilt my 440 3 years ago and tried to find out the R/T specs. The closest I could get was: -

KB 236 hypertectic  pistons with a pin height of 2.067 and they sit .020 below the deck
metal shim gasket .020 thickness
comp cam 224 and 236 duration @.050 lift
stealth aluminium heads from 440 source 84cc chamber.
compression worked out to be about 10.2

on the dyno it read 297 hp at the wheels  

[myk]

I for one never knew that there were no pistons that are correct for a 440 HP engine for a lot of years. I would guess most people who have their engines rebuilt don't know it either. i would also guess that unless a machine shop specializes Mopar engines, they may not know it either.
With that being said,
I would like a "recipe" to rebuild a '69 440 HP to achieve the stock factory specs. (or better). So tell me what pistons (Brand and part number) would you use. How about cam, head gaskets, etc. Assume the cast iron head will be used. Also if you don't like to use a cast iron head and would rather use an alum. head, please specify the head and all the other parts necessary to get to the factory HP and torque specs (or better).
Thank you.
John

Good question

You've got my attention as well...

[Alec]

'Numbers matching'  IMO  People like myself respect matching numbers simply because they know the car has the original motor and trany.  Like the fender tag as well, you can see if the car matches all the factory codes. My 69 RT is matching, but that has nothing to do with how the engine is built. Matching numbers means the serial number on the block and trany[in 69 anyway] are the same as the last 8 nums in the VIN. NOTHING MORE NOTHING LESS.
    No matter what let;s all enjoy and pound on our Chargers.
           Alec