I don't think it's supposed to do this...

[flyinlow]

 Dino you owe me a beer. I had to get up and walk out to the garage and look the number up. '73 FSM flex plate to converter bolts...270 inch pounds...about 22 foot pounds...two white knuckles. I use a drop of Loctite also.

I would run the car in neutral (stock TF's do not refill the converter in park)  Leave the inspection plate off and check that the fluid is above add.

Noise still there? Trans fluid leaking?


I have pulled TF's out with the car on jack stands and a floor jack.

[flyinlow]

Basic procedure:....this assumes your engine mounts are healthy

Put car on tall jackstands (4)
disconnect battery
drain converter and pan
Install crappy extra pan for removal if you have one
remove starter
remove cooler lines and trans linkages and neutral switch wires and speedo cable
remove converter bolts and put a C-clamp or vise grip on bellhousing to retain the converter, mark alignment of flexplate/converter for reassembly
remove drive shaft, tape plastic bag around tailshaft or a spare driveshaft yoke is better to keep fluid in
put floor jack with a piece of 3/4" plywood on it under the trans pan and just start to lift it to take the weight off the trans mount
remove trans crossmember/mount
put a piece of 3/4" plywood between the engine oil pan and the steering linkage....the rear of the engine will sit on the steering drag link until you put the trans back in
lower the floor jack slowly until the oil pan is touching the spacer wood piece on the drag link
a helper would be good at this point
remove the trans to engine bolts and filler tube
wiggle the trans to free from the engine
lower the floor jack slowly
if you jack stands are tall enough roll the floor jack/trans out from under the car...or muscle the trans on to the garage floor and slide it out (about 160# with converter/residual oil)
clean mess on floor... I know you are becoming a P.A. but this always gets trans fluid on the garage floor with me doing it.
drink beer

[71 SE3834V]

The TQ is connected to the flex plate. The flex plate is connected to the crankshaft. Anybody hear a song coming on? It really can't move forward or back UNLESS the flex plate is cracked. When I had that cracked flex plate it was around the crank bolts. I can remember that but not the symptoms (15-20 yrs ago is my excuse).
Before you torque down the bolts take them off and you can move the tq towards the trans and you should see up in there a little better. Sliding the tq back won't harm it. Mark a bolt and hole so you bolt it up the same way as the 4 bolts will only go on one way.

[Dino]

I owe you both a few beers!  Flyinlow where in Ohio are you?  I'd be happy to take a trip with my non leaking trans.   

I'm at MSU to pick up our cat so I'll be away from the car for a few more hours.  When I get back I'll loosen the TC bols and see if I can move it.  Then it'll be time to drop this sucker.

I still have the old, big starter and I have headers so anything wrong with unbolting the starter and letting it rest on the header tubes while I pull the trans?

[scratchinfotraction]

that 5/16" plug will drain a few more qrts from the TC. nice to have a drain plug on the TC and the pan for a complete fluid change. wont be as heavy going back up empty.

the TC with all 4 bolt removed you should be able to slide it back away from the flex plate and spin it.

chebby flys are know to crack around the crank bolt and the crank spin not turning the TC or slipping and hanging up for a little spin with lots of noise.

I have only had 1 flex plate break around the crank bolts enough to not spin the TC, the rest have all be on the arms by the TC bolt ends. it would then walk the TC in-out enough to hit the cover or just made lots of noise.

I use a  big flat screw driver and lever against the rear block edge turning the teeth on the TC..slow but easy.

[firefighter3931]

Quite the saga Dirk ! 

If the converter bolt was loose it will cause that grinding noise you described. Once the converter bolts loosen off enough you will hear a loud thunking noise which is the bolt hitting the block. I've seen a few that backed off enough that sheared the head right off the converter bolt. 

What I'd do before pulling the trans while you have it up in the air :

- tighten all the flexplate bolts down to 25 ftlbs
- run the car through the gears and see if the puddle reappears 


* The transmission vent is on the top of the pump housing. If the trans fluid is overfilled the vent will dump the fluid into the bellhousing area and it will leak from the inspection cover. Trans fluid expands as it heats up so you should allways check it when it's warm. If it's full cold....it will be overfull when warm...and piss out the vent. 

The input seal that covers the converter hub might also be damaged or just old/vulcanized causing a leak....and need replacing. Of course you will need to pull the trans to get at that seal.




Ron

[John_Kunkel]

The TQ is connected to the flex plate. The flex plate is connected to the crankshaft. Anybody hear a song coming on? It really can't move forward or back UNLESS the flex plate is cracked.

Or the thrust bearing in the motor is wasted.

BTW, TQ= Thermoquad  TC=Torque Converter.

[Dino]

Great info flks, thank you very much.

Ron this has been a fun one.   

I really couldn't be upset about it though, I don't think this trans has ever hade anything but fluid changes and the old girl has a right to throw a fit from time to time.  I'll do what you said tomorrow and will report back.  I drained the pan but not the converter.  How much fluid should I add to test it?

I reallly won't mind if the trans has to come out.  It'll be the perfect oppertunity to do some cleaning under the car and get the trans leak free and cleaned up.  At soome point someone painted the whole thing flat black....yeah.   

If it turns out the thrust bearing got it then it'll be time to pull the engine and go all out.  I'm still not going to spend too much money until current costs are taken care off, but the car is comfy on its stands so all is well.   

I hope to get some more miles out of it this year but if not, I can't complain.  It's been my daily since late April I think, it's been a lot of fun.   

[flyinlow]

Can't say for sure on the pan refill. Start with 4 quarts. Run the engine with the trans in neutral. Rock from drive to reverse back to neutral. Fill to the add make, a 1/2 quart at a time. Test drive , recheck level when warm , idling in neutral on a level surface.

Unless fluid is running out of the bellhousing , no rush to pull the trans. Might have been over filled, or hard pump seal.

Lucas trans. stop leak might help a seal that is tired and get you thru the old car summer driving season.  If I used stop leak in my car I would plan on pulling the trans. and going thru it before next season.

With a pry bar and a dial indicator you can check the engine trust bearing with the car on jack stands.

[Dino]

Can I do this test without having to test drive it?  I really don't want to take it off the stands if I don't have to.  It's a pain in my garage and with that front chin spoiler.

The fluid level was half way between add a pint and full, this was checked with the engine warm.  When I got it out of storage earlier this year, it was up to the fill mark when I checked it after a 15 minute drive.

I think I have about 4 quarts left to dump in there so I'll go bit by bit.

[Dino]

Alright, some more news.

I ended up putting 4 quarts back in and with a hot engine the level is exactly at the full mark.  I do recall now that's what I added last year as I didn't drain the tc.

I let it run nice and hot and shifted through all the gears several times.  I shut it off maybe 5 minutes ago and there is still no leak.  I don't get it....

The car may be a bit more level on the stands than on the ground, but it shouldn't be much.

The tc bolts are only about 1/8" removed from the engine block, how far are they supposed to be?

So now what?   

[Dino]

4 hours later still no leak coming from the bell housing.  There was one tiny drop that seemed to have come from the cooler lines so likely the leak from up top as it has always done. 

I measured from the floor to the rocker pinch weld and the rear is 1/2" higher than the front.  I have more of a rake on the ground but I don't really see If that has anything to do with it either.

I stuck my fingers in the bell housing so I could feel if there was any fluid sitting there but there wasn't.  It felt grimy and dirty though so I grabbed some paper towel and cleaned it out as best as I could.  That's when I felt this laying inside. A small piece of metal, maybe from a washer or something.  It has a groove on one side and small cracks on the other.

I'm baffled as to why this thing is not leaking, but it doesn't mean it has fixed itself.  Tightening the tq bolts did not move it in any way so I'll bet that if I drive it again, the problem will still be there.

What do you think guys?  Just pull the trans and get it over with?  Clean it all up, check for damage, clean the underside of the car and replace the old cooler lines?

[birdsandbees]

Definitely a piece of a washer.. may have come off a front pump housing bolt at some point in time, or may have been dropped or thrown up into the housing. It may have been in there sitting in grim for the past 30 years, I don't know the history of your car. I'm thinking more likely old trash from somewhere because based on the radius of that piece it would be a very large washer.

TC bolts are tight, you made sure things aren't cracked, tranny is full and not leaking... drop her and go drive her for a bit. I assume the noise is now gone and it was definitely the bolts hitting the cover?! If the TC bolts were loose it could allow the TC to wobble enough to puke a bit of fluid past the seal.

[Dino]

I don't know much about the history either so yeah who knows how long it's been there.  It is indeed a large diameter washer.

I cannot say with 100% certainty that the flex plate is not cracked around the crank.  As far as I can tell it's not, but you can only see so much looking up.

I'll bolt the cover plate back on and start it up.  See if the noise is gone.  If it is I'll go take it for a spin.

[Dino]

No noise with the plate on so I took it for a spin.  Dead quiet, no scraping or ratteling to be heard, as if nothing happened.  What the heck??

I'll check back periodically to see if it leaks.

Unfortunately while I was lowering the rear of the car, the front jack stand cracked and the car smashed onto the bigger stand that was sitting in front of it.  The passenger side corner of the valance has a dent and the corner itself sticks out about an inch from the fender.  Strangely enough it barely damaged the paint!  I'll bump it out later.  The bumper was pushed up a bit as well but putting my weight on it fixed that.  I'm telling ya, this car only gets hurt in my garage.

I guess I'll just be driving it as is, but I will not be taking any long trips for a while!

[flyinlow]

Sorry to hear about the damage.  I think most of us have done something like that over the years.

Yea , the converter bolts pass pretty close to the engine block. That sounds about right.

One other thought. Check your cooler lines for kinks that might restrict the flow causing the trans to get hot and expand everything. 

[Dino]

Good idea, I'll do that.   

The damage is not too bad.  The valance has been repaired in the past, the v shape in the front isn't even in the middle anymore.  They did an awesome job.   

I'll get it flush to the fender and leave it like that.  At least I wasn't under the car when it happened.

[Dino]

No kinks or flat spots in the cooler lines.

I took the car out for a little while today. There were no noises but there is fluid coming from the bell housing again.  I saw this after I had parked it for 30 minutes or so.  Only about the size of a silver dollar so far, and it's on cardboard so it soaks it up and makes it look bigger.

Unless a large puddle appears again I may leave it as is.  Obviously at one point I'm going to have to pull the trans and fix what needs fixing, but I'd like to get some more miles out of it this year.

When I pull the trans it'll be the perfect opportunity to do some other projects.

If my plan is flawed and I should pull the trans now then I'm sure you buys will tell me.

Thanks to everyone for the help, it's greatly appreciated as always.   

[green69rt]

Were you able to turn the TC enough to see that the drain plug was ok?

[Dino]

I'll have to check my pictures again. I checked every bolt I could find, but I'm not sure if there was a drain plug in there.  Do all tc's have a drain plug?

[birdsandbees]

Looks okay in your picture on page 2   

[Dino]

Okay that's the one I checked as well and it was snug.  The drop under the bell housing is unchanged so it's pretty small.  I'll be taking the car out again in the morning so I'll just keep an eye on things.

[green69rt]

I'll have to check my pictures again. I checked every bolt I could find, but I'm not sure if there was a drain plug in there.  Do all tc's have a drain plug?

Every one that I've seen.  Not likely the problem but YNK.

Edit, just read the thread again (for ideas, nothing came to me) and see you have a pic of the drain plug with a white mark beside it.  Looks ok.

[firefighter3931]

Dirk, it's possible that you might have slightly overfilled the trans and once it heats up the fluid....the excess is weeping out of the vent. 

Put a fresh piece of cardboard under the trans after each drive and see if the drip continues to occur or stops. You might not have any problem other than an overfilled trans 



Ron

[Dino]

I will do so.  The current cardboard had some life left in it but I just parked a soaking wet car over it.   

It has the same size drop under the bell housing after a drive this morning so we'll see if it persists or not.

I'm gonna need more cardboard...