Matching this, matching that...

[charlie45]

I am probably opening a can of worms here, and this topic has surely been discussed somewhat, but so what I am going to bring it up anyhow... 

How important do you guys view the whole matching numbers thing. I am currently building a 68 Charger with a 528 Ray Barton HEMI, many other after-market accessories include a Hotchkis TVS suspension, 4-wheel disc brakes, etc, etc., etc.

I don't have my fender tag, nor a buid sheet... Given the nature of my build, wouldn't it be superfluous to take a matching numbers car and build it this way?

In other words, how much value does a car like this whether it is or isn't an RT vehicle??

I am looking at 70 Roadrunner, and here everything matches, but that car will be more of a garage queen, the other one is more to be driven hard... I am just curious how you guys view the whole RT/matching#s thing on a project build like that...?

[Back N Black]

Me personally, don't care about numbers matching. The only numbers I'm concerned about is torque and horsepower.

[skip68]

The way I see it is like this.   
If you already have a numbers matching car don't modify it unless it's a nothing base model.   

If you don't have numbers matching, do whatever you want unless it's a HEMI. 

[303 Mopar]

The way I see it is like this.   
If you already have a numbers matching car don't modify it unless it's a nothing base model.   

If you don't have numbers matching, do whatever you want unless it's a HEMI. 

  RT, 440, HEMI, 1 of whatever cars should be saved as is, or pull and store the motor and trans and drop in something else.  Non-matching or even matching 318 base cars that they made 100,000 of who cares - modify it the way you want because its your car.  I would rather have a car to enjoy and drive than a garage or trailer queen any day.

[Ghoste]

Do what you want but understand one thing, if you go to sell it and its modified, almost NO ONE will care to reimburse you for your trouble.  I've been working in the classic car auction business for a long time now and customs almost never ever ever bring the money that was spent on them.  Your vision of the car is your vision even if its the flavor of the day (such as the resto mod or pro touring fads) and very few people share your exact vision.  The other customizers want to do one their way.  The record prices are set nearly every single time by the factory stock stuff.
I really do mean to make the car so you enjoy it, I'm just saying don't make those modifications under the idea that you are "investing" in the car or improving its value.

[1974dodgecharger]

What ghoste said........I laugh at people who do resto mods put x amount of dollars then ask for double their trouble.  A stock pure matching numbers vehicle will always be worth than a resto mod.   Look at all the resto mods people dumped over 100k and get only 50k.


In the end its your car do what u want with it......

[Mike DC]

           
There is one exception to the "customs are money losers" principle - taking a desirable bodystyle and cloning a 318 car into a hotter factory model like a (stock looking) Hemi car. 

It still probably won't be a profitable investment per se.  But at least you will probably get paid back most/all of what the upgrade cost you. 

[Ghoste]

Yeah, I'd agree partially and depending on what you do.  Clones were hot hot back around 2007 but a LOT of guys got stuck with overpriced ones once the dust settled.  A well done RT clone can keep you from losing your shirt but when guys start going all the way with coil over front ends and tubular control arms and four wheel discs and Tremecs and change out the seats and gauges and so forth it just seems to be an uphill battle to get them sold.  Just my own experience and its by no means the bellwether for all cars, but on average I would say cars taken a long way from stock typically bid to about half of the reserve.  At best they go to two thirds and every once in a while hit the mark.  Its a tough deal because a lot of the customized stuff has had serious money thrown at the car and many of them are well crafted too.  Some are just walking a credit card through an aftermarket catalog but some are really well done.
Its a niche market I suppose, not unlike vintage race cars.

[hollywood1336]

I beg to differ here guys, and I'm not pulling my own chain, but I have a hard offer on my car for 90k, I get a call off the guy once a week asking if I'm ready to sell. I had an offer of a 130k at Del Mar, pretty high up there and I know, all here say until the cash is in hand. I have 52k into my build, including the price of the original car from the clowns at Texas Toy Box, and as I have said previously, about 4k of that money was screw up money. The feedback I get out here is that people love the restomods, they love the originality of the classic lines blended with the new equipment interiors and running gear. I'm in 100% agreement, numbers matching RT's with 383's, 440's and Hemi's are a piece of history and have to be preserved, but I have also seen restomods command some pretty big numbers at these auctions as well.
Now the other case in point, in the thread, "Awesome First Cruise Night" the guy with the brown/root beer 69 Charger told me he has 300k into that build, a beautiful stunning car, but 300k, talk about money pit. If you are willing to pay stupid money to have a car built and are silly enough to think you might get it back if and when you decide to sell, dream on.
The money I've been offered for mine wouldn't cover my labor but it would certainly encourage me to build another, if I decided to sell it. But people do love the restomods and as far as I can see the restomod fad is here to stay, at least on the west coast.

[BrianShaughnessy]

I do not own and do not care to own a #s matching car. 

[triple_green]

Quote from: skip68 on Yesterday at 06:19:29 PM
The way I see it is like this.  
If you already have a numbers matching car don't modify it unless it's a nothing base model.  

If you don't have numbers matching, do whatever you want unless it's a HEMI.  


 

For the most part numbers matching cars hold their value over a larger demand base.

Mods vary with individual taste and may not have consistent resale value.

I still think modified and updated Chargers are cool (usually).

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That being said, my car is numbers matching down to the carb and radiator level and I chose to paint it the correct factory 66-1 green. (I know if is only a 383-4 car)

But sometimes I get the hankering to put in a built 440 4-speed and paint it black.  

[Dreamcar]

A rare high-dollar numbers matching car I would not modify. All stock.

A very high-volume small block...anything goes.

I'm rebuilding a numbers matching 383 '69 with decent options on the tag (A/C, tow package, cruise control, power windows, rocker moldings). I plan on repainting it the original outside color (Q5 with white vinyl top), original color interior, adding some chassis stiffening, probably 17s, slightly stiffer suspension (but nothing made for auto-crossing), disc brakes (factory power drums on all four), some 3.73 or 3.91s with a Gear Vendorz OD, and a very modest bump in HP. But besides that, no major modifications that can't be undone if someone desires. I guess I see my own car as in between "do whatever" and "keep it stock". 

[lloyd3]

Even the numbers matching cars aren't necessarily so. All these cars are nearing 50-years old now, and many (if not most) have well-over 100 thousand miles on them. In order to keep a vehicle on the road, many (if not all) of the original components that they came with have had to be replaced over the years. Everything from brakes to seats to door hinges have been replaced by now (just ask the folks in Cuba how this works?). There is a spectrum of cars out there that ranges from nearly-mint original to the almost unrecognizable.  The few NOS parts that were available are now mostly used up, so  folks who own (or want) one of these cars just do the best they can to get or keep them drive-able, and everything from the aftermarket to actual donor cars are used to fill that void.

The way I see it is this: the car either looks "stock" or it doesn't. It may or may-not be an R/T, and this matters to some, but not all. The market will sort out what a particular version is worth.  There seems to very few "originial" type cars coming onto the market these days. Most of what I see are highly modified, and they all seem to sell at pretty good numbers.  Nothing is cheap anymore, and you can chalk that up to the "price of having something different".  Just loosely looking around, I'm seeing a price range from around $25k to $75k depending on overall condition and originality. Hemi-cars are in their own stratosphere and don't really affect the general market. California seems to be in it's own market as well; prices of things there are hard to fathom for me. There is an "easy-come....easy-go" attitude there that the rest of the country doesn't seem to share.

[2592 creston]

   


     While I agree resto-mods are bringing fairly good money, anyone can copy a resto-mod down to the last bolt...no one can replace  an original numbers matching car!!!!

[tcs69rt]

Funny that last night I was looking at pics of my 440 vin# stamp on the block and I see this post today. Three years ago I went out and bought another 440 and trans from a 78 Warlock so I could take the matching #s drivetrain out and "pickle" it. My reasoning is for the value if I ever sold the car and I would have to be extremely desperate for that to happen. Still have not built the other 440 (kids college bill takes priority) but don't want to destroy the original motor either.



Back in 95 I never wanted a matching #s car, I had a spare motor and 4 speed ready and was looking for a base model 69 to make my own custom car. But 20 years ago the original family owner approached me and asked if I would pay for a paint job on a 70 Chevelle he had? If I did he would sign the Charger title over to me, his paint job cost me less than the original MSRP for a running and registered 69 Charger RT. So, I kinda fell into the matching numbers crowd.  A few months after getting the car in 95, I got offers of 32 and another for 34 grand. I caught alot of shit from non car people about turning down the big offers but who cares...I still have the car. 





How many of you can say that you got your Charger "A full head of hair ago" HAHA!

[69rtse4spd]

I can, still have some thin stuff on top, ha. The three 69 S.E., two of them 4-speeds are all orignal, won't change much, motor upgreads mostly. That is why I bought a 70, to play with, 383 4-bbl. was gone so put a 446 six pack in it. Put a Dana 60 with 3.73 & one day the Hemi 4-speed with the overdrive gears in it, just wainting for the auto to go. So do what you want, it's your car.   

[lloyd3]

tcs69rt: Good looking R/T! You ever come down off of the mountain?

[tcs69rt]

lloyd3: Actually, no the car has not left Teller county. I don't enter car shows, not a trophy hunter. I was briefly part of the Cruiser above the Clouds car club, but they were into community service and raising money. I quit them right before Dennis Gage showed up to film the event in Woodland Park for his show My Classic Car. I want to turn wrenches and when I discovered that 1/2 of the members did not even own a car...it was time to go.  Plus I don't have enough time to give to any club these days. I have seen some Mopars at the Thin Air Nats in Green Mtn Falls every summer in July. 

[Troy]

In general, I like to see original cars (at least the rare ones) stay that way. The law of averages says you should be able to find a base model in similar condition a lot easier and for much less money. So, if you're going to heavily modify a car why overpay up front? The final product (heavily modified) will not be valued more or less because of its pedigree. I think it gets fuzzy when you do "light' modifications such as bigger wheels/tires, disc brakes, Holley carb, tinted windows, stripes, etc. Basically anything that's easy to return to stock *OR* factory parts that could have come on the car stock. These generally won't increase the value at all and will really only hurt value a lot when the car is worth a lot bone stock (factory Hemi, etc). Adding certain factory appearing parts (ie making a "clone") often does increase the value of a base model car - if done right. A 4-speed swap is a great example. However, you may not always get more out of it than what you put in. I am aware that certain modified cars have brought a lot of money - but most were very high quality (so they'd be expensive any way) and the right buyer happened to be looking at exactly the right time.

Troy

[Brock Lee]

I beg to differ here guys, and I'm not pulling my own chain, but I have a hard offer on my car for 90k, I get a call off the guy once a week asking if I'm ready to sell. I had an offer of a 130k at Del Mar, pretty high up there and I know, all here say until the cash is in hand.

Well, to be fair, it is true. It is all tire kicking until the sale goes through. But in your case, lets hypothetically say the guy would actually go through with the sale...that does not mean the market value of your car is $90K. It means that you found the one guy willing to pay $90K for your car. Just like the BJ auctions where a car manages to hit a ridiculous price that grabs everyones attention, then is brought back and only manages to get a fraction of what it did before.

Numbers matching only really means something on cars that are of high interest and collectability in their stock form. It really doesn't matter on these 318 cars. A true survivor 318 Charger numbers matching will be collectable for different reasons, but few are interested in paying big bucks for meticulously restored to dead stock 318 Chargers. So few people build them. In doing a full blown restoration, a 318 car costs just as much to restore as a 440 car.

[lloyd3]

tcs69rt:  Don't blame you, traffic down here is nuts anymore. I've had mine as far as Bailey to visit a gunsmith friend and get some lunch last Fall.  It was in September, early in the week and mid-morning. Traffic wasn't too-bad then, but with a 4-gear and pulling 3:54s, I wasn't going much faster than 60 for most of it. On a 6-lane highway these days, you're the slowpoke at 60.  Years ago, I took it to Deckers for a Spring fishing event by way of Conifer.  Fun, but once was enough.  Unfortunately, it has become something of an attractive nuisance anymore, so it doesn't go very far from the house.  Short hops and fast food are the primary use these days.

[charlie45]

Me personally, don't care about numbers matching. The only numbers I'm concerned about is torque and horsepower.

I like this philosophy best!

You all make valid points... I guess it simply boils down to: If you want an investment than make sure that all numbers match and the history is traceable bla bla etc etc, but if its a resto-mod, don't expect a return on your investment, but be happy if you get one...

At the end of the day, the moment is what counts with these cars, and I can't wait to crank up that 528 Hemi...

[Alaskan_TA]

Numbers matching has value - but it is not always about monetary value.

Respect for history comes in to play for me. I have two 318 cars that are numbers matching & they have made it 45 years without losing their original numbered components, so out of respect for that, they will not be changed while I own them.

They are fun to drive exactly as they were built, that is where the true value is for me, it has nothing to do with money.

[bull]

If I bought a Charger that had no running gear and half the interior missing the sky would be the limit for modification.

If I bought a Charger that was 95% original I would be 95% inclined to retain that originality.

[myk]

It's your car man, do what you want to with it.  Who cares about other people's opinions and the "value" when you're trying to chase your own vision.  And, judging by the way you titled your thread I don't think you really care about originality either; not with this car anyway...